Team Control Signal?
 

got a quick question. I know the new signal is going to be like ncaa-w, the Fist. my question is have they said whether or not they want the other preliminary given or not? For example a moving screen: We would blow whistle, stop clock with raised arm and closed fist, then Would we give a blocking signal and then the fist or are we just going with the fist or have we not been told yet? i've read a lot of discussion about this and haven't gotten a definite answer yet or i missed it one, which is very possible! Hope everyone had a great summer, can't wait to get started again!

I would be surprised if they want us to give two signals. I think it will be just like all the other fouls (raised fist followed by extended fist).

Z

the FED mechanics are funny -- raise open hand or fist to stop the clock -- however in acutality and practice the whistle stops the clock -- next time dont blow your whistle just raise your hands and see if the clock stops.

blow the whistle sell the call make your signal -- majority of charges are very close so sell the call. most calls fist goes up yes but in a charge I say just come out and sell the thing. trust me the clock will stop if your fist doesnt go up.

I think you need to talk to your local officials that would have an answer. Many times issues like these are not made clear by the NF. You will either have to wait until the books are made public, or until you have a chance to address this locally. Your local officials could come up with a system that would be acceptable by the people you work for. I have not heard of anyone in my area say either way. I think the key is to give the signal and let everyone know what type of foul you have. I was waiting for something concrete to be made clear and it never was.

Maybe the Michigan guys can tell us what they do. I would think most of us would not get books for a little over a month from now.

Peace

The danger in not raising your fist comes on a double-whistle. In that case, you may be selling the daylights out of your charge while your partner is signaling a travel. Or worse, a block.

I'm not saying never go straight to the signal; but be aware that occassionally it can bite you, and bite you hard.

Lah me, it's been posted on the NFHS website for months. Look under "Comments On The 2006-07 Bassketball Rules Revisions". That sez:

<i>"A new signal has been added for a team control foul. The arm is extended forward and the fist is punched.......The player control foul signal has not changed. <b>BOTH SIGNALS SHOULD BE PRECEDED BY THE STOP CLOCK FOR A FOUL SIGNAL(ARM EXTENDED OVER HEAD WITH CLOSED FIST)</B>.</I>

It's not recommended to ignore official signals and do things your own way, unless you're a big dawg and can get away with it.

Z be right.

In our training meeting the other day they said that you should signal the team control foul first. Then, if you want to, you can signal the additional signal - push, etc.

Personally, I'm going with the team control signal and that's it - why complicate things?

I actually didn't think that we needed a new signal at all. A team control foul is not a new foul - there is just a new penalty. Why can't we still just signal illegal screen, push, block, etc. and just report it and go on? Just my $0.02

And I agree on raising your hand - you have to do that to avoid blarge situations - otherwise you are setting yourself up because it will happen to you eventually!

OK, I'll say it. Don't go straight to the team control foul signal, for the exact reason given above by BITS.

I disagree with you, to a degree, on both points. And in both cases, it's about communication. Giving a secondary signal can head off questions from coaches. Team control fouls are usually off-ball calls and leave most people wondering what just happened. A secondary signal can answer the coaches' questions without any further interaction.

The new signal will, I think, clear up confusion about why we're not shooting free throws in certain circumstances. People will begin to associate the punch with no free throws they way they currently associate the PC signal. Especially idiot scorekeepers who aren't paying full attention anyway.

I realize that neither argument is entirely compelling. But I've found that better an official communicates, the less trouble he has. Usually.

speaking only for Texas, we were told at one of Tony's camps that in high school games this year we will use the the punch for ALL team control fouls including player controls. This came courtesy of Ronnie Giraurd (spelling). Not a big change for me I have been using the punch for awhile, yes I know its not by the book, but I looked so cool, :cool:

All I could hypothesize is that alot of NFHS rules trickle down from the NCAA (which gets some trickle down from NBA).

NBA, NCAA-W, and now NF use the punch for TC. (FIBA too, for that matter). It's just a universal way to communicate an off the ball foul*.

-

* or a foul during an interrupted dribble for NCAA-W and NF :D

Play Pic
 

I would expect the details of this new mechanic to show up in the pre-season guide the NFHS publishes each year. There are always those mechani-grams and playpics that show us exactly what the NFHS wants.

Along those lines, and I don't know if it will appear the same way in the NFHS guide or not, the July issue of that other magazine has a playpic for the sequence of signals to be given on a team-control foul. It is on page 72 and has FOUR parts.
1. One-hand fist to indicate foul
2. Punch signal to designate team-control foul
3. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of foul (in this case, pushing)
4. Indicate spot for the designate-spot throw-in

That is what I am doing until I see something from the NFHS.

<font size = +6><b>DISCLAIMER</b></font>

<b>Nothing</b> from Referee magazine is official or approved, whether it is a rules interpretation or a mechanic. Referee aamof is noted for making mistakes. The only "official" interpretations and mechanics are those issued by the NFHS or it's appointed state representative. Similarly, any approved NCAA rules interpretations and mechanics are those that are issued by the NCAA <b>only</b>.

Referee is a good mag, but be very leary of any rules interpretations or mechanics it may print.

Geeze, Nevada, I thought that you knew better than that.

If it is any help, refereeing to Fiba rules, this is the sequence we use for the foul by the offensive team:
1) foul signal followed by the punch pointing the direction where the play is to go.
2) advise the scorebench of the fouler, etc. ending again with the punch pointing the direction of play.
3) this is to let everybody know that this is a foul by the offensive team and that there will be no shots.
Cheers

The only problem with that is the fact the NF has handed over the reigns of publishing many of the books for the NF to NASO. So you might be ultimately right, but REFEREE MAGAZINE produces the NF handbooks and now the Simplified and Illustrated books for all their sports. It may not be official, but it closer than most things at this time. Just like the CCA books, NASO is producing all the content for mechanics at least.

Peace

NASO might sell some NFHS-approved material. IAABO is licensed to re-print the complete NFHS rules and case books also. NASO, and IAABO, however do not have rules-making, rules-interpreting, exam-setting or mechanics-changing powers though. Those functions lie <b>solely</b> with the NFHS or the state association responsible for a sports program. NASO also isn't licensed to sell the major publications, the rule and case books, either iirc.

Sez so right in the copyright statement on p.1 and on the bottom of p.2 of every NFHS basketball rule and case book.

But not for NCAA-M?

According to the 2005-06 NCAA rule Book, Signal #24 (hand on back of head) is the men's signal for a PC or TC foul. Signal #25 (jab/punch) is for women.

Having said that, a lot of the NCAA-M officials in my area use the jab for TC. And personally, I don't understand why they didn't make the signal universal for both NCAA-M and W (same for the rarely-used shorten timeout for substitution signal, #8). :confused: I realize that each has their own rules committee and such, but consistent signals would make things so much more simpler.

Simply put, that would be wrong.
 

The NF Pre-Season Guides are produced from by NASO and give rules interpretations and mechanic changes or emphasis. This is not about who can produce the rulebooks or casebook. The NF uses these publications and sells them so people can read interpretations and changes in more detail. My state has been giving out these guides for free to everyone that attends a rules interpretation meeting for about 3 or 4 years now. I am not an IAABO member, but I have seen the IAABO rulebooks. Well this year all the Simplified and Illustrated books are produced only by NASO and also give interpretations directly from the NF. So Nevada was right on this issue. If there is a specific mechanic for the team control foul, it will likely be in the guide and might even be in the Simplified and Illustrated book. This is not Referee Magazine producing this on their own or creating case plays out of the sky. This is content the NF produces so more people can see the content.

Peace

Sigh.....

http://www.nfhs.com/index.asp?cmd=sh...ory&peram_0=62

If you hit basketball, those are the official products that NFHS offers for sale on their website and through approved state associations. NASO is simply a supplier, similar to the publishers/printers of the rule and case books. Note that there is the new Simplified and Illustrated book for sale on the NFHS site.

NASO may have produced that particular book <b>for</b> the FED using NFHS supplied-material, and may also be re-selling that NFHS officially-approved book, but NASO is <b>NOT</b> producing the content <i>per se </i>. They are <b>re-producing</b> FED-supplied content only, the same as whoever prints the rule and case books for the FED.

Iow, if you see something in Referee magazine, that does <b>not</b> necessarily mean that what you're reading is a NFHS-approved rule, interepretation or mechanic. It may be, but it also may <b>NOT</b> be. That was my point.

I think you reading too much into what I am saying. The NF is using NASO to put out officiating material for the NF. NASO is using the play pics, the diagrams directly from NASO and Referee Magazine content.

If anyone has picked up the 2006 Football Simplified and Illustrated Rulebook (not sure the Basketball Rulebooks are out yet) it says:

Major portions of this book are protected by the copyrights of Referee Enterprises, Inc., and are used by permission. Copying in whole or in part is prohibited without prior written consent and Referee Enterprises, Inc., and the National Federation of the State High School Associations. PLAYPIC (Trademark) and MECHANICGRAM (Trademark) are trademarks of Referee Enterprises, Inc.

(Inside the rulebook next to the Table of Contents)

Now you can take that for what it is worth.

Peace

Are we actually having a debate about publishing rights??? And I'm reading it! :(

I need a better social life.

Here is my suggestion. Give only the preliminary "punch" at the spot. When reporting to the table add the push/block/hold signal for further clarification when needed.

Illegal screen signal?

Sure -- I see now that I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that a foul by Team A during an interrupted dribble was not a TC foul in NCAA-M. In fact, you were saying that it's a different signal. Sorry.

the FIBA website will give details on how this signal is supposed to be used andwhen

http://www.fiba.com/pages/en/aboutfi...oads/rules.asp

happy hunting

My thought, without knowing anything being approved as of yet, is to give the foul/stop clock signal at the spot followed by the fist in the direction that play will resume. Then, go to the table and report the foul with the push/block (or whever) signal without the fist.

The fist is a great signal for spot only, in my view. The problem with using it at the table is, do you point toward the scorer? Toward the direction like at the spot?

team control
 

reading the previous postings Nevadaref nailed it...our association wants closed fist...punched fist...secondary signal such as push or block...then throw in spot...:)

No problem :)

Thanks for all the help!!! I like the idea of waiting to report at the table before giving the preliminary signal to help communicate what is going on!

Well each official is going to have to do as instructed by their local area, but there is also going to be a prescribed procedure from the NFHS that should be considered correct nationally. While I have yet to see anything with the NFHS logo on it or that appears in an official publication of the NFHS, I did share what I saw in Referee magazine hoping that it might provide an idea of what may be coming.

Now JR correctly pointed out that in the past that magazine has not been an official source of NFHS rules or mechanics. I thought that I made it clear in my previous post that what I was sharing was not for certain the way the NFHS would be stating to do it when I wrote, "I don't know if it will appear the same way in the NFHS guide or not." If that didn't come across clearly, JR certainly made sure it did.

Additionally, when I made that post I was completely unaware of the new business relationship between Referee Enterprises, Inc. and the NFHS that Rut has detailed. I think that is big news and found it quite interesting. If RM is going to start reproducing official NFHS diagrams and play rulings in its monthly issues, I might even start subscribing.

Furthermore, as I wrote in my previous post I expect this to be in the NFHS preseason guide for basketball which I have yet to see and since I don't work NFHS football as Rut does, I haven't seen that guide either. However, I do officiate NFHS soccer and so have a copy of that preseason guide. Rut's posts made me examine it more closely. Here are some things that I found:
a. on the bottom left of the cover page the logo for Referee appears along with "published by Referee Enterprises, Inc. in cooperation with the NFHS".
b. the top right has "Official publication of the NFHS"
c. the NFHS logo is in the upper left of the cover page
d. The same trademarked PlayPic and MechaniGram inserts as used in Referee Magazine appear throughout the document
e. in the upper left corner of every even numbered page the NFHS logo AND the Referee Ent Inc. logos appear side by side
f. a catalog request card for Referee was tucked inside
I never would have thought to look for any of this stuff without Rut's postings.

So given this new relationship and the timeline for publications, it is not unreasonable to believe that the PlayPic which appeared in the July issue of Referee Magazine could also soon be appearing in the NFHS basketball preseason guide. Due to the publishing deal Ref Ent Inc. has to be aware of some of these official NFHS diagrams before they are distributed to the general public and they could appear in a magazine article a bit in advance. I guess we'll just have to wait a few weeks and see.

The Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks are as official as it gets. I buy these books in football and basketball every year. This year's football book is Referee/NASO all over it. I also have book "Rules by Topic" for football and they will create for basketball and baseball this year as well. These are also NF books published by Referee.

JR is right that in the past Referee was giving rulings and information that my or may not have been official. Those days are over. Actually those days have been over for a few years now because this relationship did not just start this year. You have to separate a case play that is made up where all the levels interpretations are given as compared to a word on mechanics when Referee is creating the books for the CCA and the NF with some content.

Peace

Yup, certainly agree with that. If it's got an NFHS logo on it somewhere, you can be pretty sure that it's credible. If it's lacking the FED logo and it's in Referee mag, then you're taking your chances.

It's a good magazine, but they certainly have made mistakes in the past with regards to rules, interpretations and mechanics.

That was my point.

Nope, those days aren't over. NASO/Referee is still not approved to issue rulings or case plays. Only the NFHS rulesmakers and their designated state bodies are. Yes, the Simplified and Illustrated book published for the FED by NASO is NFHS-approved, as is the basketball book "Rules By Topic" that NASO is selling. Those books have the FED logo on them. However, Referee/NASO does not sell the NFHS rule book, case book or officials' manual, nor do they have any input into the content of these books either afaik. Those are the 3 main books usually used by all officials.NASO does sell some of their own mechanic books instead, <i>sans</i> the NFHS logo. Those books are <b>not</b> NFHS approved. I don't have a clue whether their content mirrors the FED manual, but if you buy and use any NASO/Referee books that don't have the NFHS logo on them, you are doing so at your own risk.

Case plays printed in Referee magazine are still <b>not</b> approved rulings <b>unless</b> those case plays came from the NFHS rulesmakers or their designated state representatives, <b>not</b> from NASO/Referee writers. Sez so right on the bottom of every second page of every NFHS rule and case book, including this year's.

Please note that I am in no way dissing NASO or Referee magazine. I might also make fun of IAABO, but I have a high regard for that organization too. To be quite honest, the rules might be a lot easier to use and understand if those organizations were involved in the rules-making process. We might not get some of the weird stuff that seems to come out every now and then from the FED. The point that I'm trying to make is that none of those 3 organizations is an official or approved rules source; the FED and it's appointed state bodies are the sole sources extant.

I think I need to be clearer about what I am saying.

The NF Publishes the NF Pre-Season Guides. Those books have rulings and interpretations directly from the NF. These books also have mechanics changes as well. When the NF last year put in the Team Control Foul last year, Referee showed the approved mechanic in the magazine and later in the NF Pre-Season Guide. I believe that was discussed last year here or on another website about whether to use a "Team control signal" or not. Last year it was made clear by these two publications directly from Referee Magazine. I am fully aware that Referee Inc. does not publish the NF Rulebooks and Casebooks. The NF does use other areas to put out rulings and mechanics changes that are outside of the rulebook and casebook. Referee Inc has been producing the Pre-Season Guides for Football, Basketball and Baseball since 2000 I believe. My state hands these guides out to anyone that attends our rules meetings. Also in our Rules Meeting PowerPoint Presentations, there have been Referee Inc usage of mechanics and PlayPics to show POE and rules changes for the coming year. Also remember the NF puts out a Quarterly Magazine for each season (and summer).

I think what you are talking about JR is when Referee Magazine, creates their own case plays in a story and rulings are given. This is where authors have made serious mistakes contrary with the rules. Let us also not forget the NF has contradicted themselves while doing the same thing off of the website and the quarterly. If anyone is a football official here and remembers when PSK was put in as a new rule all the problems that were created by the NF when they gave rulings off of the Quarterly Magazine and the website. Same thing happen in football when a new rule was put in place to allow a scoring team to accept a penalty and keep the points on the board. It was not Referee Magazine that had anything to do with those mess ups.

Now you might not be aware all of this if you do not purchase the NF Pre-Season Guide on a yearly basis. My state has a very close relationship with the NF and our dues pays for a lot of these things and we get them free just for having a license or attending rules meetings. So almost all of our content comes directly from the NF and Referee Magazine produced most of the content.

No one has said that Referee produces the Rulebooks, Casebooks, Official's Manuals or Handbooks. But it is very clear the NF has collaborated with Referee Magazine and much of what is put into Referee Magazine is coming directly from the NF. I would find it hard to believe that they are creating a book with actual mechanics involved they would not have some insight as to what is "official." I do not think we are in disagreement, you might not be aware of all these things and the only reason I am defending Nevada adamantly on this issue. He is very likely right. I bet the very same thing Nevada saw will be in the Rules Meeting slides and in the Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks. If you are a NASO Member and you get a copy of the Simplified and Illustrated book, you will hardly know there is a difference between the two parties.

Peace

Yup, if the mechanic printed in Referee was lifted from the FED Illustrated book, it's almost sure to be completely correct. My point was that NASO was also selling their own mechanics books, and others, without those books having any apparent NFHS input and also lacking the FED label. Those mechanic books might be completely right also, but the <b>only</b> real approved mechanics book is the latest NFHS Officials Manual. That's the book that people should buy first.

Iow, you're right, we aren't really disagreeing about the FED comic book or anything out of it. It's some of the other stuff in some of the Referee/NASO publications that could possibly be wrong.

We really are not disagreeing.
 

I see what you are saying. The Basketball Official's Guidebook that NASO put out was not an "Official" book. In the past there were things in this book that were not official mechanics or had some editorial points of view.

For the record I have not seen the Simplified and Illustrated book Basketball book yet. I will likely order them tomorrow.

Peace

We discussed the new mechanic at our camps this summer. The way to go in my area is to give the foul signal to stop the clock, use the team control foul mechanic and as you report verbalize what the foul was (illegal screen, push and so forth). Personally I don't like the added mechanic, but it has more to do with getting used to it than anything else.

How many games into the season before we hear some fan yell "He didn't PUNCH him!" ?

For the record, it turned out that I was absolutely right! What I previously posted appeared in exactly the same form on page 5 of the 2006-07 NFHS Basketball Preseason Guide. :)

(I wonder what JR thinks of that. :D )

You went back more than a year to post "I was right"?

Lah me.

Based not only on this. but on other threads (including in other forums), this board needs a function that automatically closes a thread after a couple of weeks.

IMHO, during a fast paced game, and a bang, bang TC foul, you are more likely to see the a quick punch of the fist instead of the Fist in the air first. Once at the table, that where the clarification will come in. That just my opinion.

Nevada lists all threads in 2 columns, marked "Threads in which I've been vindicated" and "Threads in which I've not yet been vindicated." He's just tying up loose ends. :D

Nevada, I recommend an excel spreadsheet to track these, it'll make things easier in the long run. ;)

Actually, bob, it wasn't quite as pompous as you imply. I found this old thread with the search function while attempting to help a new poster who started a new thread just yesterday asking for this information.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=39766

While reviewing it for our new member, I just happened to notice that what I had prognosticated did indeed come true. I felt that I deserved to strut my stuff a little for that. So it was only somewhat pompous. ;)

Now that was funny! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...mages/spit.gif