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-   -   player control/team control (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/27893-player-control-team-control.html)

ChuckElias Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Why don't we wander over to the baseball thread, I'll buy you a diet coke!

:)

It's pathetic. I don't want to talk about it. Come to 5-Star instead and I'll buy you a Diet Coke. :D

Dan_ref Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckElias
It's pathetic. I don't want to talk about it. Come to 5-Star instead and I'll buy you a Diet Coke. :D

Check out #3:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pathetic

Nevadaref Mon Aug 21, 2006 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Therefore, a player control foul is a subset of team control fouls.

Mathematically incorrect because there is at least one example for which this is not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Soooo....I see where it says a team ctl foul might be a PC foul. I don't see where it says a PC fouls is NOT a TC foul, which is what I questioned from Juulie's original post.

By looking at the definition (NFHS & NCAA) I don't see how a PC foul is not a TC foul.

Chuck already posted the exception Dan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Also, in HS (and NCAA-W, I think), a player control foul can be called if the player has released the ball on a shot, even though the player is no longer holding the ball.

There is no team control in that case. It has already ended.

Dan_ref Mon Aug 21, 2006 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Mathematically incorrect because there is at least one example for which this is not true.



Chuck already posted the exception Dan.



There is no team control in that case. It has already ended.

The exception doesn't make Juulie's original statment any more correct.

And in any event it only applies to 2 of the 3 codes.

So I'll stand behind my original comments, thanks.

ChuckElias Mon Aug 21, 2006 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Originally Posted by me
Therefore, a player control foul is a subset of team control fouls.

Mathematically incorrect because there is at least one example for which this is not true.

Oooo, ok. I guess "subset" is wrong. It's been a while since I did any mathematical theory. But I think everything else I said is right.

Dan_ref Mon Aug 21, 2006 03:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Oooo, ok. I guess "subset" is wrong. It's been a while since I did any mathematical theory. But I think everything else I said is right.

Been a bad day all around, eh?

Got the sh!tty end of the Mr Annoying Guy stick...any other bad news come your way today...???

Hmmmm...? Bad news....? Nothing...? Anything come to mind...?

Nothing at all?

http://www.forbiddenplanet.co.uk/images/C/C9170.jpg

rainmaker Mon Aug 21, 2006 04:12pm

Dan, of course you're right and I'm wrong.

Everyone note, this doesnt happen often, so enjoy it while it's here.

Yes, a PC foul is also team control. Generally, it's easier to explain them as if they're separate, although last year's rule change that makes the penalty for TC the same as PC does make the whole thing less complicated.

Now will someone please e-mail me about Chuck's bad news, so I can share in the gloating and teasing? Thanks.

Jurassic Referee Mon Aug 21, 2006 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Now will someone please e-mail me about Chuck's bad news, so I can share in the gloating and teasing? Thanks.

Just so you're in the loop....

<i>Chuckie had a little team
It's socks were a nice bright red
Now our poor Chuckie has just found out
That his little team is dead</i>

rainmaker Mon Aug 21, 2006 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Just so you're in the loop....

<i>Chuckie had a little team
It's socks were a nice bright red
Now our poor Chuckie has just found out
That his little team is dead</i>

I see. cute little rhyme. Are you the one that pays Chuck to deliver the straight lines?!

Dan_ref Mon Aug 21, 2006 08:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
Dan, of course you're right and I'm wrong.

Everyone note, this doesnt happen often, so enjoy it while it's here.

Puh-leeze.

:rolleyes:

Who cares if you're wrong or how often. It's not like we expect perfection every single post you make and take glee when you're not.

BTW, you need an apostrophe in doesn't.

BktBallRef Mon Aug 21, 2006 08:29pm

Don't back down so quickly, Juulie.

For the record, I disagree that a player control foul is a team control foul.

When an airborne shooter commits a player control foul after releasing the ball, there is no team control.

This type of foul does not meet the definition of a team control foul. (4-19-7) Therefore, a PC foul is not a team control foul.

Player control fouls and team control fouls are two different animals and should not be grouped together, even if the penalties are the same.

BTW Dan, "Who cares if you're wrong or how often," is not a statement. It's a question and need a question mark at the end. :)

Dan_ref Mon Aug 21, 2006 08:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Don't back down so quickly, Juulie.

For the record, I disagree that a player control foul is a team control foul.

It doesn't matter, that's not what she said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

When an airborne shooter commits a player control foul after releasing the ball, there is no team control.

This type of foul does not meet the definition of a team control foul. (4-19-7) Therefore, a PC foul is not a team control foul.

Player control fouls and team control fouls are two different animals and should not be grouped together, even if the penalties are the same.

Read the definition for TC foul. And you're late with the exception, Nevada mentioned it this afternnon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

BTW Dan, "Who cares if you're wrong or how often," is not a statement. It's a question and need a question mark at the end. :)

How precious.

BktBallRef Tue Aug 22, 2006 07:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Read the definition for TC foul. And you're late with the exception, Nevada mentioned it this afternnon.

I've read the definition. "A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control." An airborne shooter who has released the ball is no longer in team control. Therefore, this is an instance where a PC foul does not meet the definition of a team control. If one exception exists, then that's all that's needed. A PC foul is not a team control foul.

Juulie wrote, "A team control foul is committed by a member of the team in control, but that player doesn't have player control." That's a true statement.

My apologies to you for not reading NVRef's post first. But he is correct and she's correct. If you disagree, then I'm certain willing to look at an NFHS interp or a case play. Got one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
BTW, you need an apostrophe in doesn't.

How precious.

Dan_ref Tue Aug 22, 2006 08:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
I've read the definition. Perhaps you should. An airborne shooter who has released the ball is no longer in team control. Therefore, this is an instance where a PC foul does not meet the definition of a team control. If one exception exists, then that's all that's needed.

And I apologize for not reading NVRef's post first. But he is correct and she's correct. And you're wrong.

Well let's see, here's what Juulie said:


Just to be very clear.

A player control foul is a foul committed by the person who has player control. A team control is committed by a member of the team in control, but that player doesn't have player control.


Here's what the fed said in 05-06, similar to NCAA wording:


A team control foul is a foul committed by a member of the team that has team control.


Not at all the same.

I'll grant you the exception, obviously it's correct under fed rules, but this exception does not exist under ncaa-m rules. But to say PC fouls & TC fouls are 2 seperate animals only means you don't understand the definition of TC fouls.

Anyway, let's see if we can agree to this:

Except for the airborne shooter exception in NFHS and NCAA-W rules all PC fouls are TC fouls.

BktBallRef Tue Aug 22, 2006 09:56am

Sorry, I disagree. Yes, I understand the definition very well and no, PC fouls are not TC fouls. If a PC foul was a TC foul, then the Fed would have listed them together under the same article and listed the exception. They didn't. If a PC foul was a TC foul, then it would meet the definition with the exception noted. It isn't. It's no different than a double foul being a different animal than a false double foul or a multiple foul being different than a false multiple foul. It's a separate situation and it calls for a separate definition.

I realize that team control can exist during a PC foul and that the penalty is the same. But it is not a TC foul by definition. Get them to change the working of the articles/rule and I there. Until then, no.

BTW, I couldn't care less what the NCAA men or women's rule is. I can accept, "Except for the airborne shooter exception, PC fouls are have similiar characteristics as TC fouls." :)

But they are not TC fouls.


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