From Polly Wogs to Toads

[Just Curious]

The rules are pretty clear as to when substitutes become player and when a players becomes bench-personnel. But when do bench-personnel become substitutes? A. When the coach sends them to the scoring table to check in. Or after they have reported to the scoring table and the table recognizes them (As a substitute).
Chuck

[Mark Padgett]

What difference does the term "substitute" mean than "bench personnel"? There's no difference in how they are viewed as to the coach's responsibility for their actions. Bench personnel can get off the bench to report to the scorer's table, and when they do that they become "substitutes", but if they get a T while waiting to report, it is the same penalty to the team as if they were still on the bench.

If there was a difference in how they are treated, then the difference in terms would be significant, but there isn't.

[Just Curious]

Sorry Mark... Not true. Fed. ball rules clearly state, in terms of Technical Fouls anyway, that a T assessed to bench-personnel are indirect to the coach. T's assessed to sub's are not. So there is a difference.
Chuck

[Mark Padgett]

Thanks for pointing out yet another discrepency in the NF rules. If a "bench personnel" enters the court without permission, the coach gets an indirect T, but if a "substitute" enters without reporting (or without being beckoned), the coach does not get the indirect T. However, if bench personnel do not become substitutes until they report, then any person entering the game without reporting would still be bench personnel - so how could a substitute enter without reporting? By definition, it would be impossible.

I would venture that if you asked the NF rules committee (and, believe me, I would never presume to try to anticipate what they would say, mostly because I am sane), they would probably tell you that the part of the rule that penalizes bench personnel for entering without reporting was meant to penalize that player and their coach for someone coming off the bench in a fight, or for some similar reason, not because they didn't properly report.

I guess the reasoning for the difference in the direct and indirect is that there is expectation of control by a coach over someone who is sitting on the bench, but there is not that degree of expectation of control over someone who is kneeling at the table and comes in before being beckoned. As I said, I "guess" that's the reason.

Personally, I think it would be a good idea to give the coach an indirect on all technical fouls his team gets regardless of reason or situation. I feel a coach is always directly responsible for the actions and behavior of his players. If you think this would result in a rash of coach ejections, you're right. At least, it would for a while, until coaches would realize they would then have to enforce discipline and correct behavior of their players in order for the coaches to stay in games.

And wouldn't that be nice!

[mick]

Originally posted by Just Curious
Sorry Mark... Not true. Fed. ball rules clearly state, in terms of Technical Fouls anyway, that a T assessed to bench-personnel are indirect to the coach. T's assessed to sub's are not. So there is a difference.
Chuck

4-34-2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to substitutes, coaches, manager(s), and statisticians.

4-34-3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.... A player becomes bench personnel when his/her substitute becomes a player ....

mick

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

I guess the reasoning for the difference in the direct and indirect is that there is expectation of control by a coach over someone who is sitting on the bench, but there is not that degree of expectation of control over someone who is kneeling at the table and comes in before being beckoned. As I said, I "guess" that's the reason.

Mark,
Pretty good figgerin', I think.

mick

[Lotto]

NCAA rules define "Substitute" explicitly:

Rule 4.

Section 6. Bench Personnel
Art. 1. Bench personnel includes anyone in the team bench area and substitutes.

Section 56. Substitute
Art. 1. A substitute is a team member who has reported to the scorers’ table that he or she wishes to become a player and is waiting at the scorers’ table to be beckoned into the game by an official.

Later, though, it gets confusing:

Rule 10.

Section 3. Indirect Technical Fouls
The following shall result in an indirect technical foul being charged to a team or player:
Art. 5. Substitution
a . A substitute shall not enter the playing court without reporting to the scorers, without the substitute’s name appearing on the pregame squad list or without being beckoned onto the playing court by an official (unless between halves or before an extra period ) .

Section 7. Direct Technical Fouls for Unsporting Conduct of Bench Personnel and Followers
Any bench personnel or followers of a team shall be assessed a direct technical foul for the following unsporting conduct:
Art. 7. Entering the playing court unless done with the permission of an official to attend to an injured player (see exceptions under bench-area restrictions).

So Article 5 covers a situation that can't happen---the player isn't a substitute without reporting, so a substitute can't enter the court without reporting.

I think the intent is clear even though the language isn't. If a player comes off the bench and replaces another player without reporting to the table, this would be an indirect technical foul (even though that player isn't a technically substitute according to Rule 4). If the player comes off the bench and onto the playing floor for any other reason, that's a direct technical foul. In the former case, the coach doesn't share the blame; in the latter, he/she does.

The bottom line is that we have to judge intent in this situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Just Curious
The rules are pretty clear as to when substitutes become player and when a players becomes bench-personnel. But when do bench-personnel become substitutes? A. When the coach sends them to the scoring table to check in. Or after they have reported to the scoring table and the table recognizes them (As a substitute).
Chuck

You've got your wires crossed Chuck. Any player who is not in the game is a substitute. All substitutes are bench personnel. He/she doesn't have to go to the table to become a substitute. Read the definition, NF 4-34, that mick posted above, because he's right on target.

Originally posted by Just Curious
Sorry Mark... Not true. Fed. ball rules clearly state, in terms of Technical Fouls anyway, that a T assessed to bench-personnel are indirect to the coach. T's assessed to sub's are not. So there is a difference.
Chuck

Sorry Chuck but that's not correct. You're reading too much into the "failure to report or not being beckoned rule." This is the only time a T on a sub is not an indirect for the coach. Any other time a sub gets a T, it's an indirect on the coach. Read my comments below.

Originally posted by mick

Mark,
Pretty good figgerin', I think.

mick

Here's the only problem with that theory.

When a player fouls out, you inform the coach, then the player. Why? So that he/she becomes bench personel and the coach is responsible for them. In this case, the kid is usually still on the floor, certainly much farther away in most cases than a sub, sitting at the table.

If he's sitting at the table during a live ball, waiting to come in, he's still bench personnel. If he curses an official and gets a T, it's still an indirect on the coach. An exception to the technical foul rule keeps the coach from being penalized if a sub enters the game without reporting or being beckoned. I also don't know why this exception exists. But for the sake of any other T, he is still a sub and, therefore, still bench personnel until he becomes a player. Result, indirect on the coach.

Originally posted by Lotto

So Article 5 covers a situation that can't happen---the player isn't a substitute without reporting, so a substitute can't enter the court without reporting.

But that's just under NCAA. A player doesn't have to report to become a substitute under NF rules. Read NF 3-3-1

A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorers, giving his/her number and the number of the player who is being replaced.

Note that he is a substitute, PRIOR to reporting. He doesn't become a substitue AFTER he reports.