Over and back -correctable call
 

Last season I’m doing a middle school game and at opening tip-off Team B gets ball in their front court but goes the wrong way towards their basket and crosses center line. B Coach yells and the B player turns and goes back into their frontcourt. They shoot and miss and A gets rebound. Meanwhile A Coach is yelling over and back for the first play. I blow my whistle, stop play, and ask my partner for advice. He said too late to correct. We give ball back to A to inbound and the game continues.

First time in 5 years, I have seen this. Neither my partner nor I made the call for over and back violation. I think we were both too caught up in the moment. We obviously blew the call. Is this a correctable error? Should I have done anything differently? What if Team B scored after we missed the call?

Hi Jim,

Just a quick pointer first.

In Fed ball, by definition, teams shoot on their own basket. So in your account above, when Team B obtained the ball in their frontcourt, and "went the wrong way towards their basket", they were actually going towards A's basket. It still appears that B did obtain possession in their frontcourt (FC), but when they crossed the division line, they are now heading towards A's basket. When the B player went back into his FC, they are now heading towards their basket.

Your P is correct - it is too late to call an over-and-back violation. It is not a correctable error. It is just a missed call. In fact, it was probably too late about a second or three after it happened. Given that it's middle school, I suppose you could have a longer delayed whistle and still make this call, when B did violate.

After the game was stopped with A securing the rebound, it was correct to give A the ball, as that was the point of interruption.

That's a good item to work into your game - to catch those over-and-backs that occur on the jump ball.

I don't think you could have done anything differently, except that you have a few seconds to make this call after it happened, imo, since it is middle school. If B scored, then I think there is nothing you can do.

Yup, not correctable.

It would be good to point out to the complaining coach that you'd have given his team the same benefit of the doubt. He might as well learn to be a little flexible this early in the game.

As to the question of what if B scored:

A live ball passed through A's basket (as JugglingReferee pointed out, teams shoot at their own baskets in Fed), so A get two points. At this point you're going to hit the whistle, get everyone straightened out on which direction they're supposed to be going, and give the ball back to B for a throw-in anywhere along the A's endline.

You're going to want to do this rather quickly, before B's coach starts whining about how you should've called over and back and not given them the basket.

Just a couple of little twists for your consideration:

• If B gets fouled while shooting at A's basket, the ball is dead immediately and B is not given any free throws even if the shot is unsuccessful (B would, however get free throws if B were in the bonus, but that was obviously not the case in the play you stated).
• If B shoots at A's basket from behind the three point line, it only counts two points.

Both of these little quirks are because shooting at your opponent's basket is not considered a try.

JugglingReferee,
I dunno why it's too late to make the call.

With the coach yelling and telling about the missed call, and with the ball dead and the officials talking, why not just make the call and give the ball to Team A near the division line?
Same ol', same ol'.
mick

If I recognized the violation before they shot the ball, I'd make the call.

But no, it is not a "correctable error."

Why is the coach yelling? His team has the ball. Tell him to hush!

Mick, after the missed violation, there was a shot and a rebound. That's just way too late to go back and try and do anything- especially when the rules won't allow you to do that in the first place, as per case book play 5.2.1SitF.

Just say "missed that one" and move on. If you set a precedent otherwise, then you're gonna have pandemonium out there.

I dunno, JR.
5.2.1F has other considerations (ie., jumpers facing wrong direction, baskets scored).
I agree with saying "missed one", but I don't think a pan of ammonia is gonna be any bigger (everyone, by then, knew what happened) if you blow the call late and set the ball at the division line.
mick

If I understand the post correctly, B get ball in their front court, he passes the center line and heads back, that is a BAck court violation. Isn't it?

REFVA,
Yeah that's the right call.
The question is:

• If the play goes (temporarily) unoticed, can you (should you) make the violation call.

mick

unoticed? unnoticed? un-noticed?

You gonna do the same thing for a missed travel? A missed OOB call? A missed <b>anything</b>?

Are you also gonna correct a correctable error that was actually just too late to correct, by rule?

If you do one, what's your rationale for not doing all of them?

Jmo, but I think that you're just setting yourself up for a whole buncha headaches if you start fixing up calls retroactively.

Where's Mister Annoying Pain-In-The-Azz Spelling Guy? The little sh!t is <b>never</b> around when you need him, is he?

JR,
I dunno. Do you think I will ? :)
Yer just being irascible cuz your sitch don't work.

I was questioning the "too late" thingy.
When is too late ? After a score? --> sure. After 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 9 seconds?
mick

Just for that, I'm not going to tell you which one is correct. :p

About time.

:rolleyes:

Actually, according to Dictionary.com, both unnoticed and un-noticed are listed, but un-noticed references unnoticed.

Did anyone else notice?

Signed,

Mr. Annoying Pain-In-The-Azz Spelling Guy's Capable Intern.

PS - mick, considering this was a middle school game, I might also consider calling the violation, even after the missed shots. But any level higher, I would have to say it's a missed call, and nothing, and just move on after correcting the direction the players were going. Also, depending on how and how much the other coach was complaining, I might consider letting it go as well. The coach might then get the impression he can have you go back and correct calls all game.

Irascible?

<i>Moi?</i>:confused:

Actually, I think that the language used in that case case play is relevant.

<i>"Once the mistake is recognized, play shall continue with with each team attempting to score in it's own basket"</i>

It's an official mistake in not recognizing the violation when it occurred. Just resume play at the POI.

M&M,
That would be a very short impression, methinks.
mick

JR,
Defending an improper sitch with that sentence?
To that I say, "Ha !"

My opinion of Jim Henry blowing to stop the play is that he did just fine.
And, if he (and his partner) had wanted to go "backcourt violation", that act would not have broken any rule.
mick

I would hope so. ;)

But why even give them a glimmer of hope?

1) I don't have a problem with him stopping play either to make sure that any confusion was over. I do have a problem with a retroactive call.

2) Oh? How about rule 2-10-1? That rule lists <b>all</b> of the correctable errors that can legally be corrected. I can't seem to find a "missed violation" in that section anywhere. :)

YU.P.
I think this thread well shows that the "missed violation" should not be construed as a correctable error.

Perhaps the "missed violation" section is implicated somewhere else.
...Maybe in the "How much time do I have to blow my whistle after a foul or violation" section.

mick

Patient whistle?

That's a good item to work into your game - to catch those over-and-backs that occur on the jump ball.

Over-and-back (or backcourt violations) cannot happen on a jump ball. it can happen after a team has gained possesion following a jump ball

Basketball
NFHS
Rule 9: Violations and Penalties
Section 9: Backcourt - Article 3


A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.

Yes, Ken, thank you. We all know that.

What mick is discussing is these types of plays routinely happen after the jump ball that opens the game. He's fully aware of the rule, I can assure you.

I think this is in-correct as a blanket statement. If A is playing defense on B, who is shooting at the wrong basket, B gets the points, you set everyone straight, then play on. This applies when both teams get turned around.

Are we still talking about the OP? Because in that play, the dribbler shot at his own basket, not the opponents. The dribbler headed the wrong way initially, but then ended up shooting in the correct basket.

This is what happens when I post at 2am. I TOTALLY mis-understood what I mis-read in the OP. I'll just sit in the corner and rock quietly for a while, shall I?:(

Okay, after sufficient caffein intake, I'm now ready to take another crack at this. My final answer is: It depends :)

If the officials allow the teams to line up going the wrong way, then allow play to continue as if everyone had lined up correctly, then you are correct. That's this rule: "If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location."

If everybody lines up the right direction, there is a reasonable expectation that everybody knows which direction we're going. If a player then legally heads the wrong direction, you've got a different story. If that player scores in the wrong basket, the proper rule is this (my emphasis): "A successful try, tap or thrown ball that does not touch the floor, a teammate or official, from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch line counts three points. Any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown. See 4-5-4."

The question I imagined the OP asked was "what if rather than B coming back into their own frontcourt after having gone over the half line the first time, they stayed in their backcourt and scored at A's basket?" In that case, you live with your initial (kicked) no-call and the consequences. The consequences are A receives two points because a goal was scored at their basket. Then you kill the play, get them straightened out, and restart with B's throw-in from anywhere along A's endline.

I would further add these seemingly contradictory statements:

• I think that the timeframe in which you can reasonably call the, at first unrealized, backcourt violation is be longer than normal in this case. To the point that if B had a break-away layup opportunity, I think you could still whistle the backcourt violation up until the time the ball leave's B's hand for the shot. I think you could sell that late call without much fuss.
• As long as no other violation or foul occurs, you allow this play to continue to it's fruition. Start a really obvious 10 second count, and hope that bails you out.

Anybody take exception to that? :D

Was this always a violation?
 

I seem to remember back about 35 years ago when I first started, there was a rule that on the opening jump, it was permissable for a team to gain control in the front court and pass it back into the back court to a teammate.

Does anyone else remember this, or am I just senile.

Does anyone else remember this, or am I just senile.

Yes. :D

No.

Yes. :)