A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?

No, this is not the proper mechanic. The lead should raise both arms to indicate three-points, and the trail should mirror the signal. If the lead was still on the ball and didn't see the ball go through the basket (an unlikely occurrence), then the trail should indicate the successful try.

Bob,
In the reverse situation, when the three-point try belongs to Trail, I have a real problem mirroring the Trail from Lead, because <li> Table sees the shot; <LI>Table sees Trail; <li>Nobody sees, or looks at, Lead.

That may be my worst mechanic... not mirroring from Lead.
Wasn't that removed a couple years ago, and then returned?
mick

Unless they changed it this year.....
 

Bob, the lead should not be signaling any kind of 3 point shot in HS mechanics. Now I know they do in NCAA Women's. But the lead does not have any coverage beyond the 3 point line, so the lead should not be signaling an attempt or made shot in this case. Only the Trail and Center should be doing this. And they only time the Trail or Center will mirror each other, when a 3 point shot is put up near the center of the court, and on a made 3 point shot.

Peace

I'm with Rut on this one. The only time lead signals a 3-point attempt in HS is with two-person mechanics.

I just returned from the right call basketball camp in madison and we had a big discussion over this. the lead official NEVER does this, unless it is out of the trail's vision. the lead may assist in indicating if a shot is a 3, but again, only if it is out of the trail's vision. we had 10 college clinitions and 5 commissioners there and that was what they told us. the lead NEVER mirrors the trail's 3 point signal (hands in air). Even with 2 man mechanics the lead NEVER mirrors, commisioners don't want to see this and it will be a big point in the comming years because it is a big misconception


always open to feedback

3-point... 3-man ????
 

The original post was two-man, yo?

mick

<u>Warning</u>: If you think Jenkins is wrong... read it again.

High School Federation Mechanics
 

This game was officiated by two officials, so as the trail official was I correct in not signaling a three? I just want to be sure what the federation mechanics are.

Do what Jenkins said.
 

Love2,
Bob gave you the mechanic in the book. (Maybe it changed this year..., but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.)
It is more important, in my mind, for the Trail to mirror a partner, than for the Lead to mirror a partner, because the Trail is in full visibility to relay information to the Table.
Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

I agree w/ you 100%, the lead may signal a 3-point attempt so that his partners know that it was there, but NEVER should the lead signal that it was successful

Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

High School Federation Mechanic
 

Okay, now let me share with you the second part of this play.During the halftime, my partner was furious that I did not signal(raise both of my arms to signal that the 3point try was successful)Due to the fact that my partner is also a Pro-Am official,and he was using pro mechanics the entire game. frankly, after the first quarter I stopped trying to figure out what the different mechanics were and just tried to concentrate on calling the game.My partner told me that he was going to continue using these signals and that I should except it.Unfortunately he wanted to spend the entire half time explaining his reasons for using these mechanics.I suggested to him that we not spend the entire half time on this situation and that we prepare for the second half of the game. Fortunately for us we did not have a similiar situation like this in the second half. I am concerned about officials who work pro leagues,and when they work high school games they choose to use pro mechanics.

I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

yer right.
 

From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Let me suggest one mechanic that is pretty much adopted around here do. When the lead official "cues" the three-point attempt (the one hand) Trail goes up with the one hand and Lead then drops the arm completely, when the basket goes in Trail signals the 3 pointer. There are very few times when as trail that you won't notice lead going up with the three. This is a very smooth and clean looking mechanic. The lead should also know that if you havent already signalled a three,he'll know the ball goes in and he can signal but Trail is going to mirror so at some point in time the trail should have signalled the three.

Lead does not miror. No reason to unless your evaluator says so.

There are a few guys who cannnot adjust but around here when we do Pro games we use pro mechanics, when we do NF games we do NF mechanics. In rec games that use NF rules I use pro mechanics because they are faster. I am not sure which mechanics you are referring to but pro mechanics are not that different from NF... Women's NCAA has adopted many of them and you are even seeing them creep into NCAA Men's. I would argue given enough time some of them will trickle down to NF.
You can also learn a lot from Pro mechanics. I have learned a lot about basketball learning from Pro refs. Also if you know pro and college rules you'll be a better HS ref because many times people watch the Pro game and will ask rules questions or mention something and it is easier to talk with them about it if you understand all the games.

Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

Your original statement was "the lead <b>never</b> being on ball outside the arc" and Rut aaid that "the lead should not be signaling <b>any kind</b> of 3 point shot in HS mechanics." That's what I was responding to, not any particular play that may have been mentioned.

Re: yer right.
 

Missing a not in here, no?

Re: High School Federation Mechanic
 

Wow. So you drew this guy in a tournament or something
and he made a big deal over this? IMO you just
happened to run into one huge a$$hole. Of course, if you
were depending on him getting you some games I would guess
you're gonna have a hole in your schedule ;) Otherwise
forget it.

Re: Re: yer right.
 

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

Yes. You, of course, are correct.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
My use of never was wrong.
I was wrapped up in the original play and not all the possibilities.

Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.

Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we? :p

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Quote: It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic. Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the ball after each made basket again, are we? :p

Dan,
I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway.
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by mick Quote: It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic. Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the ball after each made basket again, are we? :p Dan, I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway. mick

No biggie. Your girl's season starts early, right?
Is 8/30 when they start to scrimmage?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 

"Never say never!" :)

First game
 

Sparky,
No white or white/black balls for me.
8/30 is my first game, although the season starts on the 28th.
I have no scrimmages scheduled, but we usually get one or two.
I was last on the court on 7/18, but I'll be working with my most regular partner, and probably another that we worked with at camp.
Should be cake.
mick

That is correct in three man women's mechanics!

No, I'm afraid it's not. Under NFHS mechanics, women's mechanics are no different than men's. The lead may indicate that a fast break 3 is being attempted but it's still up to the T and C to signal success.

NCAA maybe?
 

TH, I think he meant College Women's. Because if that is what he was talking about, he is right on the money.

He may be but question was "Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?" And his answer was "That is correct in three man women's mechanics!" :confused:

High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 

For those of you who are not sure which gender I wanted the correct three point mechanics for, the answer that I was looking for was "boys"High School Federation Mechanics.I would like to take the opportunity at this time to thank my fellow officials for there feedback.

Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 

Just a note - There is no difference in NFHS mechanics with regards to boys and girls. They are the same for each gender.

Tony --

There are states where there are differences. Washington, for instance, has some differences between HS boys' and HS girls'. I can't quote you them all at the moment, because I only used them a few times myself, but I know they exist.

Regarding the 3-point signaling, in Portland, our commissioner insists that Lead NEVER mirrors. Also, what we are taught is that Lead signals when the ball goes up, and then when the ball goes in, and then Trail mirrors. I agree with those that don't like this, because it can be hard to see all the action, and then catch the ball as it falls. I like the Trail mirroring the intent, and Lead not signalling the drop.... Just in case anyone is counting votes...

I'm sure that may be true. However, there is no difference in <b>NFHS mechanics</b> with regards to girls and boys basketball. They are what they are and they are the same.

Well, yeah, some states use different rules and/or
mechanics. Here in NY we use modified NCAA women's
for girls HS, and since we have a shot clock even the
boys HS is modified NF rules. But these are not the
NFHS rules & mechanics, they are the NY State rules
& mechanics.

Quote:

Regarding the 3-point signaling, in Portland, our commissioner insists that Lead NEVER mirrors. Also, what we are taught is that Lead signals when the ball goes up, and then when the ball goes in, and then Trail mirrors. I agree with those that don't like this, because it can be hard to see all the action, and then catch the ball as it falls. I like the Trail mirroring the intent, and Lead not signalling the drop.... Just in case anyone is counting votes...

Same here, which is why I was suprised to learn the mirror
was back in.

Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 

Missing a not in here, no? [/QUOTE]

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)

[/QUOTE]

Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years. [/QUOTE]

Sheesh -- I go away for a couple of days and all h*** breaks loose. ;)

On this paragraph from the 1999-2001 Official's Manual --

Paragraph 281d, as originally printed, makes it appear as though the Lead should mirropr the Trail on 3-point attempts (2-person mechanics). The paragraph is wrong -- the word "not" was left out when the book was printed.

This ommission was noted when the NFHS published its Basketball Rules Interpretations for the 1999-2000 season.

(FWIW, there were 15 rules-book errors, 4 case-book errors. 3 officials-manual erros and 2 S&I errors noted by the FED that year -- and I don't think they got them all).

In our association, two man mechanics, lead signals the three point attempt, if it goes in, trail gives touchdown signal and lead mirrors. This is the only situation, other than in transition, where the lead signals the three.

Walter,
And now, according to Bob Jenkins post, that is the wrong mechanic per Fed. Maybe the new book will show the change.
mick

High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 

Okay, Let me take this question one step further,So because I decline to signal the three point try successful(as the trail) until my partner(the lead)signaled the three point try successful.Does that make me correct or incorrect. since then the situation happened to me yesterday, and my partner who is a womens official did not signal a three point try successful(as the lead)so after she noticed that I was not going raise both of my arms to signal the three point try successful,she immediately raised both her arms to signal the three point try successful and I did the same. She never questioned me about the play, and we never had a disscussion about the play.

Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 

a) The "by-the-book" answer: The covering official (that's the lead in this case) is supposed to signal the successful attempt, and the trail (if not the covering official) should mirror. So, you are technically correct to wait for the lead's signal.

b) The "practical" answer: If you see your partner indicate the attempt, and you see the ball go in the basket, why do you need to see your partner's signal? There's a small chance that the lead changed her mind (i.e., it wasn't really a "three") and a small chance that something happened to make the basket not count, but if you are court-aware, those shouldn't happen.

c) The NCAA women's three-person answer (which explains why your partner did what she did): "If the 3-point shot is attempted in the L's primary coverage area the L official will signal the attempt. The T will mirror the attempt and, if successful, the T will signal a successful 3-point shot and the C will mirror the successful 3-point signal. It is permissable for the L to signal a successful 3-point shot if the C and T have not given the signal."

Re: Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 

Well said, and b) is usually the way to go. In fact I would
go so far as to say the T should mirror the 3 pt attempt
signal & then own the shot, simmply because the L will want
to continue to referee the shooter and the T should be on
the shot anyway for BI/GT and subsequent rebounding action.
As for c), it's been my experience that women referees (as
in female, not men who ref women's games) are generally more
accomodating about these mechanics differences (ie are less
likely to behave like an assh*le). Not always, not
everyone, just enough to make a difference, IMO

3 signals
 

I wish someone would tell North Carolina that the lead--in a 2-man game--should not give the touchdown signal. It makes little sense. There's too much else for that official to do.

Re: 3 signals
 

I wish someone would tell me where North Carolina said that the lead-- in a 2-man game--should "give the touchdown signal." It makes little sense, since we only work 3 man and that's all I wrote about in this post.