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Love2ref4Ever Sun Aug 05, 2001 07:17am

A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?

bob jenkins Sun Aug 05, 2001 07:39am

No, this is not the proper mechanic. The lead should raise both arms to indicate three-points, and the trail should mirror the signal. If the lead was still on the ball and didn't see the ball go through the basket (an unlikely occurrence), then the trail should indicate the successful try.

mick Sun Aug 05, 2001 08:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
No, this is not the proper mechanic. The lead should raise both arms to indicate three-points, and the trail should mirror the signal. If the lead was still on the ball and didn't see the ball go through the basket (an unlikely occurrence), then the trail should indicate the successful try.
Bob,
In the reverse situation, when the three-point try belongs to Trail, I have a real problem mirroring the Trail from Lead, because <li> Table sees the shot; <LI>Table sees Trail; <li>Nobody sees, or looks at, Lead.

That may be my worst mechanic... not mirroring from Lead.
Wasn't that removed a couple years ago, and then returned?
mick

JRutledge Sun Aug 05, 2001 03:26pm

Unless they changed it this year.....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
No, this is not the proper mechanic. The lead should raise both arms to indicate three-points, and the trail should mirror the signal. If the lead was still on the ball and didn't see the ball go through the basket (an unlikely occurrence), then the trail should indicate the successful try.
Bob, the lead should not be signaling any kind of 3 point shot in HS mechanics. Now I know they do in NCAA Women's. But the lead does not have any coverage beyond the 3 point line, so the lead should not be signaling an attempt or made shot in this case. Only the Trail and Center should be doing this. And they only time the Trail or Center will mirror each other, when a 3 point shot is put up near the center of the court, and on a made 3 point shot.

Peace

BigDave Sun Aug 05, 2001 04:04pm

I'm with Rut on this one. The only time lead signals a 3-point attempt in HS is with two-person mechanics.

Doug Sun Aug 05, 2001 04:35pm

I just returned from the right call basketball camp in madison and we had a big discussion over this. the lead official NEVER does this, unless it is out of the trail's vision. the lead may assist in indicating if a shot is a 3, but again, only if it is out of the trail's vision. we had 10 college clinitions and 5 commissioners there and that was what they told us. the lead NEVER mirrors the trail's 3 point signal (hands in air). Even with 2 man mechanics the lead NEVER mirrors, commisioners don't want to see this and it will be a big point in the comming years because it is a big misconception


always open to feedback

mick Sun Aug 05, 2001 05:12pm

3-point... 3-man ????
 
The original post was two-man, yo?

mick

<u>Warning</u>: If you think Jenkins is wrong... read it again.

Love2ref4Ever Sun Aug 05, 2001 06:49pm

High School Federation Mechanics
 
This game was officiated by two officials, so as the trail official was I correct in not signaling a three? I just want to be sure what the federation mechanics are.

mick Sun Aug 05, 2001 08:18pm

Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
This game was officiated by two officials, so as the trail official was I correct in not signaling a three? I just want to be sure what the federation mechanics are.
Love2,
Bob gave you the mechanic in the book. (Maybe it changed this year..., but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.)
It is more important, in my mind, for the Trail to mirror a partner, than for the Lead to mirror a partner, because the Trail is in full visibility to relay information to the Table.
Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

BktBallRef Sun Aug 05, 2001 10:34pm

Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

Doug Sun Aug 05, 2001 10:46pm

Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.



I agree w/ you 100%, the lead may signal a 3-point attempt so that his partners know that it was there, but NEVER should the lead signal that it was successful

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 05:58am

Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

Love2ref4Ever Mon Aug 06, 2001 07:05am

High School Federation Mechanic
 
Okay, now let me share with you the second part of this play.During the halftime, my partner was furious that I did not signal(raise both of my arms to signal that the 3point try was successful)Due to the fact that my partner is also a Pro-Am official,and he was using pro mechanics the entire game. frankly, after the first quarter I stopped trying to figure out what the different mechanics were and just tried to concentrate on calling the game.My partner told me that he was going to continue using these signals and that I should except it.Unfortunately he wanted to spend the entire half time explaining his reasons for using these mechanics.I suggested to him that we not spend the entire half time on this situation and that we prepare for the second half of the game. Fortunately for us we did not have a similiar situation like this in the second half. I am concerned about officials who work pro leagues,and when they work high school games they choose to use pro mechanics.

dblref Mon Aug 06, 2001 08:20am

I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:21am

yer right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?
From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Kelvin green Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:27am

Let me suggest one mechanic that is pretty much adopted around here do. When the lead official "cues" the three-point attempt (the one hand) Trail goes up with the one hand and Lead then drops the arm completely, when the basket goes in Trail signals the 3 pointer. There are very few times when as trail that you won't notice lead going up with the three. This is a very smooth and clean looking mechanic. The lead should also know that if you havent already signalled a three,he'll know the ball goes in and he can signal but Trail is going to mirror so at some point in time the trail should have signalled the three.

Lead does not miror. No reason to unless your evaluator says so.

There are a few guys who cannnot adjust but around here when we do Pro games we use pro mechanics, when we do NF games we do NF mechanics. In rec games that use NF rules I use pro mechanics because they are faster. I am not sure which mechanics you are referring to but pro mechanics are not that different from NF... Women's NCAA has adopted many of them and you are even seeing them creep into NCAA Men's. I would argue given enough time some of them will trickle down to NF.
You can also learn a lot from Pro mechanics. I have learned a lot about basketball learning from Pro refs. Also if you know pro and college rules you'll be a better HS ref because many times people watch the Pro game and will ask rules questions or mention something and it is easier to talk with them about it if you understand all the games.

BktBallRef Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:28am

Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

Your original statement was "the lead <b>never</b> being on ball outside the arc" and Rut aaid that "the lead should not be signaling <b>any kind</b> of 3 point shot in HS mechanics." That's what I was responding to, not any particular play that may have been mentioned.

Dan_ref Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:30am

Re: yer right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?
From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall
(not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."
Missing a not in here, no?

Dan_ref Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:36am

Re: High School Federation Mechanic
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Okay, now let me share with you the second part of this play.During the halftime, my partner was furious that I did not signal(raise both of my arms to signal that the 3point try was successful)Due to the fact that my partner is also a Pro-Am official,and he was using pro mechanics the entire game. frankly, after the first quarter I stopped trying to figure out what the different mechanics were and just tried to concentrate on calling the game.My partner told me that he was going to continue using these signals and that I should except it.Unfortunately he wanted to spend the entire half time explaining his reasons for using these mechanics.I suggested to him that we not spend the entire half time on this situation and that we prepare for the second half of the game. Fortunately for us we did not have a similiar situation like this in the second half. I am concerned about officials who work pro leagues,and when they work high school games they choose to use pro mechanics.
Wow. So you drew this guy in a tournament or something
and he made a big deal over this? IMO you just
happened to run into one huge a$$hole. Of course, if you
were depending on him getting you some games I would guess
you're gonna have a hole in your schedule ;) Otherwise
forget it.

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:38am

Re: Re: yer right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?
From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall
(not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."
Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)


mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

Your original statement was "the lead <b>never</b> being on ball outside the arc" and Rut aaid that "the lead should not be signaling <b>any kind</b> of 3 point shot in HS mechanics." That's what I was responding to, not any particular play that may have been mentioned.


Yes. You, of course, are correct.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
My use of never was wrong.
I was wrapped up in the original play and not all the possibilities.

Dan_ref Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:48am

Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?
From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall
(not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."
Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)


Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 09:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?
From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall
(not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."
Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)


Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Dan_ref Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
Quote:


It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.
Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we? :p

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:


It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.
Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we? :p
Dan,
I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway.
mick


Dan_ref Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:


It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.
Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we? :p
Dan,
I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway.
mick

No biggie. Your girl's season starts early, right?
Is 8/30 when they start to scrimmage?

BktBallRef Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do what Jenkins said.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Yes. You, of course, are correct.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
My use of never was wrong.
I was wrapped up in the original play and not all the possibilities.

"Never say never!" :)

mick Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:05am

First game
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref


No biggie. Your girl's season starts early, right?
Is 8/30 when they start to scrimmage?

Sparky,
No white or white/black balls for me.
8/30 is my first game, although the season starts on the 28th.
I have no scrimmages scheduled, but we usually get one or two.
I was last on the court on 7/18, but I'll be working with my most regular partner, and probably another that we worked with at camp.
Should be cake.
mick

dhodges007 Mon Aug 06, 2001 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?
That is correct in three man women's mechanics!

BktBallRef Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?
That is correct in three man women's mechanics!

No, I'm afraid it's not. Under NFHS mechanics, women's mechanics are no different than men's. The lead may indicate that a fast break 3 is being attempted but it's still up to the T and C to signal success.

JRutledge Tue Aug 07, 2001 01:31am

NCAA maybe?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

[i]

That is correct in three man women's mechanics!
No, I'm afraid it's not. Under NFHS mechanics, women's mechanics are no different than men's. The lead may indicate that a fast break 3 is being attempted but it's still up to the T and C to signal success. [/B]
TH, I think he meant College Women's. Because if that is what he was talking about, he is right on the money.

BktBallRef Tue Aug 07, 2001 09:10am

He may be but question was "Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?" And his answer was "That is correct in three man women's mechanics!" :confused:

Love2ref4Ever Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:16pm

High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 
For those of you who are not sure which gender I wanted the correct three point mechanics for, the answer that I was looking for was "boys"High School Federation Mechanics.I would like to take the opportunity at this time to thank my fellow officials for there feedback.

BktBallRef Tue Aug 07, 2001 01:18pm

Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
For those of you who are not sure which gender I wanted the correct three point mechanics for, the answer that I was looking for was "boys"High School Federation Mechanics.I would like to take the opportunity at this time to thank my fellow officials for there feedback.
Just a note - There is no difference in NFHS mechanics with regards to boys and girls. They are the same for each gender.

rainmaker Wed Aug 08, 2001 12:50pm

Tony --

There are states where there are differences. Washington, for instance, has some differences between HS boys' and HS girls'. I can't quote you them all at the moment, because I only used them a few times myself, but I know they exist.

Regarding the 3-point signaling, in Portland, our commissioner insists that Lead NEVER mirrors. Also, what we are taught is that Lead signals when the ball goes up, and then when the ball goes in, and then Trail mirrors. I agree with those that don't like this, because it can be hard to see all the action, and then catch the ball as it falls. I like the Trail mirroring the intent, and Lead not signalling the drop.... Just in case anyone is counting votes...

BktBallRef Wed Aug 08, 2001 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

There are states where there are differences. Washington, for instance, has some differences between HS boys' and HS girls'. I can't quote you them all at the moment, because I only used them a few times myself, but I know they exist.

I'm sure that may be true. However, there is no difference in <b>NFHS mechanics</b> with regards to girls and boys basketball. They are what they are and they are the same.

Dan_ref Wed Aug 08, 2001 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Tony --

There are states where there are differences. Washington, for instance, has some differences between HS boys' and HS girls'. I can't quote you them all at the moment, because I only used them a few times myself, but I know they exist.

Well, yeah, some states use different rules and/or
mechanics. Here in NY we use modified NCAA women's
for girls HS, and since we have a shot clock even the
boys HS is modified NF rules. But these are not the
NFHS rules & mechanics, they are the NY State rules
& mechanics.

Quote:

Regarding the 3-point signaling, in Portland, our commissioner insists that Lead NEVER mirrors. Also, what we are taught is that Lead signals when the ball goes up, and then when the ball goes in, and then Trail mirrors. I agree with those that don't like this, because it can be hard to see all the action, and then catch the ball as it falls. I like the Trail mirroring the intent, and Lead not signalling the drop.... Just in case anyone is counting votes...
Same here, which is why I was suprised to learn the mirror
was back in.

bob jenkins Thu Aug 09, 2001 09:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: yer right.
 
Quote:

From <u>1999-2000 Officials Manual</u>:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
<b>Three-point Try</b>
281.d <li>"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall
(not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."


Missing a not in here, no? [/QUOTE]

No, I am <b>not</b>. ;)

[/QUOTE]

Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.
[/QUOTE]

Sheesh -- I go away for a couple of days and all h*** breaks loose. ;)

On this paragraph from the 1999-2001 Official's Manual --

Paragraph 281d, as originally printed, makes it appear as though the Lead should mirropr the Trail on 3-point attempts (2-person mechanics). The paragraph is wrong -- the word "not" was left out when the book was printed.

This ommission was noted when the NFHS published its Basketball Rules Interpretations for the 1999-2000 season.

(FWIW, there were 15 rules-book errors, 4 case-book errors. 3 officials-manual erros and 2 S&I errors noted by the FED that year -- and I don't think they got them all).

walter Fri Aug 10, 2001 08:48am

In our association, two man mechanics, lead signals the three point attempt, if it goes in, trail gives touchdown signal and lead mirrors. This is the only situation, other than in transition, where the lead signals the three.

mick Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by walter
In our association, two man mechanics, lead signals the three point attempt, if it goes in, trail gives touchdown signal and lead mirrors. This is the only situation, other than in transition, where the lead signals the three.
Walter,
And now, according to Bob Jenkins post, that is the wrong mechanic per Fed. Maybe the new book will show the change.
mick

Love2ref4Ever Fri Aug 10, 2001 12:13pm

High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 
Okay, Let me take this question one step further,So because I decline to signal the three point try successful(as the trail) until my partner(the lead)signaled the three point try successful.Does that make me correct or incorrect. since then the situation happened to me yesterday, and my partner who is a womens official did not signal a three point try successful(as the lead)so after she noticed that I was not going raise both of my arms to signal the three point try successful,she immediately raised both her arms to signal the three point try successful and I did the same. She never questioned me about the play, and we never had a disscussion about the play.

bob jenkins Fri Aug 10, 2001 01:24pm

Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Okay, Let me take this question one step further,So because I decline to signal the three point try successful(as the trail) until my partner(the lead)signaled the three point try successful.Does that make me correct or incorrect. since then the situation happened to me yesterday, and my partner who is a womens official did not signal a three point try successful(as the lead)so after she noticed that I was not going raise both of my arms to signal the three point try successful,she immediately raised both her arms to signal the three point try successful and I did the same. She never questioned me about the play, and we never had a disscussion about the play.
a) The "by-the-book" answer: The covering official (that's the lead in this case) is supposed to signal the successful attempt, and the trail (if not the covering official) should mirror. So, you are technically correct to wait for the lead's signal.

b) The "practical" answer: If you see your partner indicate the attempt, and you see the ball go in the basket, why do you need to see your partner's signal? There's a small chance that the lead changed her mind (i.e., it wasn't really a "three") and a small chance that something happened to make the basket not count, but if you are court-aware, those shouldn't happen.

c) The NCAA women's three-person answer (which explains why your partner did what she did): "If the 3-point shot is attempted in the L's primary coverage area the L official will signal the attempt. The T will mirror the attempt and, if successful, the T will signal a successful 3-point shot and the C will mirror the successful 3-point signal. It is permissable for the L to signal a successful 3-point shot if the C and T have not given the signal."

Dan_ref Fri Aug 10, 2001 01:57pm

Re: Re: High School Federation Three Point Mechanics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Okay, Let me take this question one step further,So because I decline to signal the three point try successful(as the trail) until my partner(the lead)signaled the three point try successful.Does that make me correct or incorrect. since then the situation happened to me yesterday, and my partner who is a womens official did not signal a three point try successful(as the lead)so after she noticed that I was not going raise both of my arms to signal the three point try successful,she immediately raised both her arms to signal the three point try successful and I did the same. She never questioned me about the play, and we never had a disscussion about the play.
a) The "by-the-book" answer: The covering official (that's the lead in this case) is supposed to signal the successful attempt, and the trail (if not the covering official) should mirror. So, you are technically correct to wait for the lead's signal.

b) The "practical" answer: If you see your partner indicate the attempt, and you see the ball go in the basket, why do you need to see your partner's signal? There's a small chance that the lead changed her mind (i.e., it wasn't really a "three") and a small chance that something happened to make the basket not count, but if you are court-aware, those shouldn't happen.

c) The NCAA women's three-person answer (which explains why your partner did what she did): "If the 3-point shot is attempted in the L's primary coverage area the L official will signal the attempt. The T will mirror the attempt and, if successful, the T will signal a successful 3-point shot and the C will mirror the successful 3-point signal. It is permissable for the L to signal a successful 3-point shot if the C and T have not given the signal."

Well said, and b) is usually the way to go. In fact I would
go so far as to say the T should mirror the 3 pt attempt
signal & then own the shot, simmply because the L will want
to continue to referee the shooter and the T should be on
the shot anyway for BI/GT and subsequent rebounding action.
As for c), it's been my experience that women referees (as
in female, not men who ref women's games) are generally more
accomodating about these mechanics differences (ie are less
likely to behave like an assh*le). Not always, not
everyone, just enough to make a difference, IMO

SIDRef Wed Aug 15, 2001 09:54pm

3 signals
 
I wish someone would tell North Carolina that the lead--in a 2-man game--should not give the touchdown signal. It makes little sense. There's too much else for that official to do.

BktBallRef Thu Aug 16, 2001 02:20am

Re: 3 signals
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SIDRef
I wish someone would tell North Carolina that the lead--in a 2-man game--should not give the touchdown signal. It makes little sense. There's too much else for that official to do.
I wish someone would tell me where North Carolina said that the lead-- in a 2-man game--should "give the touchdown signal." It makes little sense, since we only work 3 man and that's all I wrote about in this post.



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