Race card played
 

I was at a camp this last weekend (did pretty well and heard that my local chapter assignment secretary was saying good things about me…but that is not the purpose of the post). Teams were part of a boys 11/12 grade tournament.

Sunday’s schedule got messed up by a double OT game early so the director told everyone to forget their game schedule and stay in the main gym…he grabbed us as needed and did a good job keeping all of us working. Late in the afternoon, he walks up to me and asks if I am ready for a challenge…two good teams that like to run…said it would be a tough game to call. I figure it is worth rolling the dice so I take the game. Home team is all Caucasian, visitors are all African-American…this comes into play later.

Things are rocking along real well. None of us have a lot of three whistle experience but we never miss a rotation, are communicating well and have the game in control. At halftime, the evaluator compliments us and mentions a couple of minor things. Early in the second half, #42 for black starts whining about calls. We talk to him with little success, but he doesn't cross the line. Game is tight (3 points) with just under a minute. White has a break going and #42 clearly takes out the shooter attempting a lay-up. I am at lead, so I call the foul. He immediately starts to complain and gesturing with his hands. I say “Cool it, you don’t want to make this any worse.” He turns, takes two steps, then looks back and yells “Bullsh!t call!” I can’t let that go, especially with an evaluator sitting in the stands so I give him the T. After letting my partners know what I have, I go to report. The black team assistant starts onto the floor complaining. I hold up my hand and ask him to get off the floor. He yells “Ill do what I want and there is nothing you can do!” I show him there is at least one thing I can do and stick him.

About this time, one of my partners gets there and is trying to get between the two of us. I take a step back, then to the side but the assistant is persistent. He is still vocal, and I’m thinking my partner is going to run him any minute. Finally, he sticks his finger at me and yells “You are a bigot!” I hold for a second, giving my partner a chance…no whistle from him…so I run him.

White makes all 8…game over. BTW, I double checked the score sheets after they were picked up at the table…foul count was 6-6 in the second half, 12-13 for the entire game.

LarryS,

Being African American, I believe you handled the situation properly. I would not have stood for that type of behavior either. However, it is sad that you did not have strong partners to assist you because, it appeared from what you describe as the bad guy out to get them.

This happens sometimes. I wouldn't consider it a big deal.

1. How many times are you going to talk to the same player?
2. Why are you holding your hand up for an assistant? I wouldn't hold my hand up for anyone, but that is another story.
3. If the comments were directly aimed at you, IMO T him up three times if you have to!

Many evaluators know what is going on. This is still a dynamic game and unwritten rules can't always be followed, depending on the circumstance. Three years ago, I got hired by a conference because I was tired and had the wrong two teams for the last game of the night. 5 T's later the evaluator looked at my partners and said, "Where are you guys at?" Do what you have to do.

Question: If he would have called you a bigot before you gave him the first T, what would you have done?

I assuming you're an African-American official, black team (uniform) is the Caucasian team, and the white team (uniform) is the African-American team???

Sounds like you did what you were supposed to do in the scenario you described. I wouldn't have bothered to check the score sheet. You had an evaluator watching you, what did he say about how you and your partners handled the situation in particular and the game overall?

Can someone who has been an assigner, on any level, comment on this? Do you have a problem with an official giving a coach two T's when a coach's behavior is directly aimed at that official?

I'm not an assignor, but I'm sure I would not have a problem with that official. I would maybe have a problem with his colleague(s).

Sorry if I wan't clear. I am Caucasian. Home team was all Caucasian and wore white. Visiting team was all African-American and wore black uniforms.

what did the evaluator say after the game????

And more specifically, what did he say about your partner's failure to take care of business?

He complimented me on taking care of business and told my partners that one of them should have given the assistant the second T...and qucikly when he kept trying to get in my face. He added that he was not going to get on them very hard as we all did a great job in the game.

Suprisingly (at least to me) I stayed calm the entire time. Probably because I was trying to remember the number of the player and if the shot went in :)

The really good part of all this is that the evaluator is a personal freind of my assignment secretary. As we were finishing up, he grabbed my arm. When we were alone, he said he saw me work last summer and that "I have elavated my game significantly. I'll work with you anytime, anywhere...and I'll make sure the right people know that." That sure made the drive home more enjoyable...now I just have to do perform at the same level at our camp in a few weeks.

Congrats on the compliments & on handling this well. Like Tom said, what this jerk said is not really a big deal, unless you make it a big deal. Just quietly take care of business.

Other than the comment the assistant said, what the hell does this have to do with race? Understand that coaches, fans and players use anything as an excuse for things that do not go their way. It just happens there is a racial element in this situation (where I live this is a very common situation in basketball games). If it was two white teams or two Black teams, then it would have been geography. So what if you were called a bigot, you will be called a lot more if you continue to officate. Also I have no problem with an official giving two Ts. You cannot say you will never be put in a situation where this should not take place. You were already called a bigot, so nothing you do is going to be right anyway.

Peace

Good call. It's a T even if there is no evaluator there. ;)

Good call.

Maybe I'm a hard-a$$, but this is a flagrant technical. Write it up so. Your P bailed on ya here - definitely ask him why in the post-game.

Excellent job!

So what if an official is called a bigot? HUH????? WHACK! And pointing at me, too? Flagrant. See ya.

And if he gets called worse, I hope he Ts them up too.

Don't let something like this contribute to ABS - send him to the showers.

Absolutely nothing. Does that mean he can't discuss it.

The fact is that it was a racist remark, and the fact is he chose to discuss it. If it had been a white coach that made a racist remark to a black official, you'd make a 10 page thread out of it. But I guess since the shoe's on the other foot this time, you don't consider it discussion worthy.

It is not a racist remark. :rolleyes: The coach was accusing him of something. Not sure how it is racist to accuse someone of a certain behavior or action.

I also did not say he could not discuss it, but this is not the "race card." Race is never a card; it is a reality of life. When I stop hearing about burning crosses in communities and race issues go completely away, then we can call it a card. Until that time racial issues are a fact.

Peace

If it is perceived by anyone is racist, then it is racist. At least that is the reasoning you've used in the past on several occasions involving race and also involving our discussion of "lady". Or is it that only what you perceive as racist really is so.

The only cross burnings I've ever seen in my life have been on fictional TV and I can't say that I've even seen that more than a handful of times. I've never even heard of one in any community I've lived in (and I live in the south for over 20 years). Sure they happened in the past and probably still do happen on occassion....and should actually never happen. But, unless the official we're talking about participated in one, I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.

When someone disingenuously uses one of society's hot-button topics or values, such as race or gender or religion or sexual preference or anything else for that matter, to further his or her own agenda or twist a situation, then that is playing an advantage, as in a game of cards. "Playing the race card" is taking a real issue and falsely injecting the negative annotations of that issue onto someone. That makes it different from the "real" issue, of which racism and all the nasty history associated with it is one. Playing the race card is different from the reality of racism, and race is indeed all-too-often used as a card for advantage.

A few years ago I was calling a rec game in Panama City FL. The coaches and all the players on both teams were black, my partner was black, the scorekeeper was black, and the 20-30 or so people watching the game were black. The only other white guy in the gym besides me was the clock operator who was about 70 years old and weighed all of 130 pounds. At some point during the game I made an out-of-bounds call. One of the players on the bench didn't like the call and loudly called me a racist. I'm not sure who I was supposed to be racist against, but he was obviously trying to intimidate me. It didn't work. I wasn't (and am not) racist, but he tried to influence me and the people present just by making the accusation. That is playing the race card.

Please do not twist the conversation around to try to fit some narrow perception you have of my opinions. It is one thing to talk about a single word and the potential history behind that word. Accusing someone of being a bigot is not a racist comment. It might be an inflammatory statement, but not a racist one. If we use your logic, no one can make an accusation of racism ever without holding racist views. Kind of funny when accusing someone of being racist does not show superiority for one race to another.

Well I have experienced cross-burnings in communities I have lived. There have also been cross-burnings in surrounding communities where I have lived as well. And these incidents did not happen 20 years ago, they happen less than 5 years ago. That does not include racist graffiti or spray painting on property that might belong to someone who is of color or of Jewish decent. I was called a derogatory name in a town which had a Klan rally earlier that year. Just because you have not experienced such things, does not mean it has still does not happen today.

Peace

People have the right to make judgments about race or anything else for that matter that they can come up with. Some of those accusations will be to your face; many will be behind your back. Coaches and players accuse officials all the time of being bias because of where they think we live or who we have some kind of relationship with. If it bothers you so much that "race" was the reason bias was claimed, then maybe officiating is not for you. That is a very common accusation where I live whether you are Black or whether you are white. It is also very common to work a very racially diverse game on a regular basis where I live as well. I have been accused of selling out because I did not appease a Black coach and his team the way he felt I should. You simply get over it and move on. I think the most people do not want to seriously deal with issue of race in this society, so called a racist becomes a tragedy to some. I know 3 Black officials that took a hell of a lot more crap for not "helping" an all-Black team/school win in a big playoff game in 2005. At least this incident happen on the court and it did not spill into phone calls and emails and multiple conversations when the game is over about your "loyalty" and "integrity" based completely on your race. Then one of the officials was essentially fired in a league for not being "loyal" to this one team only because he shared a race with the players and their coaches in this playoff game.

The point of all of this, there are worst things that could have happened. I seriously doubt this official is going to lose anything because of this accusation.

Peace

Even you aren't that damn dumb. He is accusing the man of making calls against his team because of the color of their skin. That's not racist?


This isn't about burning crosses. It's about a asst. coach who thinks just because a white official makes a call against his player, the official has to be a bigot. You're the one who's trying to twist this into something it's not. Camron and Corndog hit the nail on the head. The only things that are racist are what Rutledge says is racist.

Flagrant technical foul as soon as that remark was made. Write it up after the game and turn it into the league/TASO. It's an obvious racial comment, and racial comments like that have no place in any sport- ever.

Your partner really showed a lack of testicular fortitude in this situation imo, Larry. If he doesn't wanna take care of bidness out there, then he should find something else to do in his free time.

I think it is funny to say someone calling someone bigot in this situation isn't racist. He called the guy a bigot because he felt like he was making calls against his team based on race. That isn't racist? Now we have brought ignorance into the conversation.
Is there some organization that determines when a word like "bigot" can be used and not be racial? If there is, I don't know of such and organization. This is probably one man's opinion which isn't the deciding factor.
The term "race card" makes me roll my eyes. Racism happens everyday and many people like to dismiss it by using the term "race card." Furthermore, if someone doesn't think things like burning crosses are a thing of the past, they must be ignoring what happens in our society.

Back on point, correct JR - Flagrant T immediately. I still think the official who is the focus of this attack should have the first shot at this T. This would cause my ears to perk up immediately and a T would probably be a quick reaction. I'm black and I've had black coaches make similar remarks. I put the wonder twins (my two index fingers) :D in the form of a T!!!!!

I've been in similar situations in the (fairly long ago) past when religion and ethnicity were put into play also. My partner and I were accused once by a coach of favoring Catholic players over his Protestant school. That coach actually was a JV coach that was providing color commentary on a cable tv broadcast of his school's varsity team, and he made the remarks on-air. He ended up being suspended for those remarks, and he also got warned that if he ever repeated anything like them, he'd be fired. He was also ordered to make a written aoplogy to both my partner and myself, which he did. I also had a game once between a Hebrew league all-star team and a Yugoslavian team where players on both teams accused me of favoring the other side for religious/ethnic reasons. Those players went buh-bye too.

One of the reasons that people are hired to officiate games in any sport is to try and keep out any hint of bias- no matter what type of bias it might be. Anything of a racial/ethnic/religious nature just shouldn't be tolerated by officials anytime imo.

I had an assistant make a racial remark to me.
 

During a college camp, one team was really getting outplayed. Of course, that is when the assistant coaches get in trouble. This one did. As I am trail during a free throw, he says loud enoug for everyone to hear that they keep getting calls against them because they are a minority.

Immediate whack.

This team ended up getting a total of 4 T's. The other three by one of my partners and left the court before the game ended.

Needless to say, the evaluator was not pleased.

As I've been reading this thread, all of you are passionate about this topic make lot's of sense. let's keep in mind we all have our own interprtation and opinions. Let's also keep in mind that when this occurred, Was The assistance coach a possible parent or an adult that is not normally in the capacity of a coach. So he may have not had the proper training and does not know how to handle the game situation. might be (a coach wanna be) Doesn't make it right. As a ref we should be prepared to hear and recieve all kinds of abuse thrown at us. Including racial remarks.



This comment really bothers me most did the official take any actions against his association. unless there is lot's more to the story. I ref in a very diverse area and the majority of the players are minorities, I being caucasan get that word thrown my way all the times. Yet my thoughts "who am I being prejudice against". It's just ignorance on the part of the asst coach and anyone who may even think of using the term. Obviously it's IMO.

Calling someone a bigot is not racism. If you are calling the coach a racist, does that make you a racist? Use some common sense here.

This is the same as calling you a cheat, IMO. Assess a flagrant technical, with whatever followup is possible. If this is AAU, bring it to the attention of the event organizer and the local chapter. If this is a regular season game, file the paperwork.

This particular coach needs to be educated as to what is acceptable behavior for an assistant coach, i.e. sit and be quiet. This is one of the coaching behaviors that can lead to on-court violence over the course of a season, and should be dealt with as severely as possible.

Sorry but that's complete and total bull$hit. It makes no difference whether he makes his living as a coach or not. He's an asst. coach tonight. Further, I expect to hear stupid things from fans, coaches and players. But no official should have to tolerate profane, vulgar, or racist comments directed toward them.


How 'bout you use little commone sense? No one said that it "makes him a racist." But it's definitely a racist comment from the coach. He used the word "bigot" to say that the official was cheating his team because they were of a different skin color. That's damn sure a racist remark.

Unless I'm misinterpreting you, I completely disagree with your comments above. Yes, we might be prepared to hear and receive abuse. That doesn't mean that we should <b>EVER</b> tolerate racial remarks of any kind, whether they're coming from a player, coach, fan, etc. Do something about it. Imo, if you tolerate racial remarks, that's the same as condoning them; it's wrong.

Just for the record, I can't thing of any other way that calling someone a "bigot" under the particular circumstances described in the original post could <b>not</b> be racial in nature.

Jimgolf, What do you think that the assistant coach was actually trying to say- that the ref was bigoted against all assistant coaches? :confused:

You're saying the coach made a racial remark. That is the same as the coach saying the official is a bigot. You are calling the coach a bigot, just using different words.

Yes, maybe I should make myself clear. I'm not going become sensitive to those remarks. If that is directed to me or anyone on the court and on the benches and even if it's directed to a person in stands or in the gym by a player or coach or anyone who is considered a participant to the outcome of the game. Yes I will not tolerate it. I believe that the original poster did the correct thing by T'ing him up. I guess I was implying more so to people in the stands and even by players and coaches after a the outcome of the game has already been determined.

Sorry for any confusion, I don't and will not tolerate it, Although I won't be surprised if it does occur.

I'm not saying anything to the asst. coach. I wasn't even there, so how can I be saying the coach is anything. I'm simply interpreting the meaning of his statement. You seem to be hung up on labeling people. I'm not labeling anyone here. I'm not a bigot, just because I view his comments as racial. The asst. coach may or may not be a bigot. It's not my responsibility to make that determinstaion. I'm discussing and judging his actions. I can certainly make a judgment that he made a racist statement. You said it yourself. The coach accused the official of cheating his team. Why? Because they were a different color.

You can side step it all day long but at the end of the day, if it walk like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

You would allow players and coaches to address you, your partners or the opponents in such a manner, just because outcome has been determined? :confused:

Thank you for the clarification above. I pretty much feel the same way.

Um, Jim, that's <b>exactly</b> what the coach said- that Larry was a bigot. I'm kinda missing whatever point that you're trying to make with that statement. And, yeah, if a person is making bigoted statements, then there's usually a pretty good chance that that person actually is a bigot. That's kinda irrelevant anyway though because the coach got thrown for making a racial comment, not for what he might be. Iow, he was penalized solely for his <b>actions</b>, and rightfully so imo.

After the outcome has been determined and I'm out of the confinds of the gym, my status as an official is done. It's no diiferent if you came up to me in a public area and did the same thing. You are entitled to your opinion..
If you read my post, I said that during the game I will not tolerate it..

So after the game, a coach or player comes into your locker room or sees you in the parking lot and makes a racial, profane or vulgar slur at you, you'll just accept that as him being entitled to his opinion?

Sorry but I don't think so. People have to be held accountable, when they're in such a position. We'll just agree to disagree on that one, partner.

I reverse the question, what do you do if I came up to you as a stranger in public area and say the same racial remark?

There are step at scalastic level to report that coach and player and beyond that what other steps would you take?

From dictionary.com:

Bigot:

n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I doubt the coaches/refs exchanged political or religious views. He could be referring to his group of players. I doubt it though.

Seems to me that race is the factor.

You mean aside from punching you in the face?

I'm not addressing your comments as Joe Q. Public. I'm addressing your comments based on the fact that you are an official until you leave the grounds of a school. Your capacity doesn't end when the horn sounds. You are still a representative of your local association and your state association.

I don't know what scalastic is. But I do know that whether the game is over or not, I am still an official until I leave the grounds of that school. Coaches and players are accountable to the school, the local school board and the state asscoiation. The school is accountable for the conduct of fans on their premises. Even if it were a fan that approached me in the parking lot and directed racial, profane or vulgar language at me, damn skippy I would report the incident. It's more appropriate for me to approach someone in such a manner than it is for them to approach me.

I don't stop being an official just because the game is over.

Sorry my bad, Scholastic!

Look, I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm also not a fool. When I took the responsibility of becoming an basketball official I took the oath to which I will do my best as an official. If the fan, player, coach and anyone else that has the balls to approach me after and anywhere on and off the grounds of the school and try to cause me harm this guy/person doesn't have it all together. You could punch me in the face or what ever you please, as you mentioned. If he calls me a bigot, then I'm walking away once I'm out of the gym.

In today's enviorement, you never know who and what is capable of doing anytime or anywhere. I could only tell you about a personal expereince that happened to me, as I umpired a adult softball game. the call didn't go toward certain individual, He was nuts enough to come after me with a bat. He was arrested for doing what he did. I was lucky at that moment to get away unharmed, I look at if as my luck may eventually run out.

That doesn't mean that I will not do my best to disfuse any situation.
Everyone will handle every sitaution differently.

And I had the same idiot throw a softball at me after I tossed him. :)

So I don't disagree with you with regard to maintaining your composure and professionalism in the face of such acts. The point that I hope you understand is that you don't cease being an official just becasue the game is over or you leave the gym. You came to the school as an official. Therefore, you have that responsibility until such time as you leave. You can bet that if you called some fan a dumbass in the parking lot, you'd get a call the next morning. Why? Because you're still at the school in your capacity as an official.

I completely agree with this statement.


What action were these guys going to take? If someone decides you are not qualified to work a league, they can pretty much come up with any reason they want to. Now I guess you could file a suit and go through some legal battles over this issue, but would that be worth it? This is also not about an "association." This league or any league can scratch people how ever they want to. There is no association that can tell a league who they want to work or not work (at least around here). Also it is not like these officials could not find other places to work. All three (who were Black) that year worked a State Final and one of the officials worked this year for his 4th state title overall in Basketball. So these guys were not hurting for games or opportunities in basketball.

A side note to this story, the one guy that was so-called banned from this league was not hired in the Big Ten as a football official. I do not think it was all that tragic for him.

Peace

I understand! I'm with you..

I'm saying the Asst Coach calling the official a bigot doesn't mean the Asst Coach is a racist or a bigot. It just means he has a big mouth. He may have any number of motivations for saying that other than his own personal bigotry.

Calling someone a bigot doesn't make you a bigot. If it does, then you're a bigot, because you just called the coach a bigot. And I guess I'm a bigot because I just called you a bigot.

This is circular reasoning.

Yeah, Jim, the assistant coach might really be the nicest guy in the world, but again, that's completely and totally irrelevant. We penalize participants in a game for what they <b>do</b>, not for what they <b>are</b>. The assistant coach made an obvious racial comment imo; also imo, he deserved to be tossed for making that racial comment. Others may certainly disagree; that is their right also.

That's linear reasoning.

Again, it doesn't make any difference whether the guy is a bigot or not. No one is saying he is or isn't. THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. It's a racist remark, based on the reason he called him a bigot.

You are missing my point entirely. Calling someone a bigot is not necessarily, in and of itself a racist remark.

It may even be a true remark.

It may be a stupid remark, in that the person saying it might be misinterpreting events.

It may be the sign of someone having a chip on their shoulder.

It may even actually be a racist remark.

Think about it. If you call Archie Bunker a bigot, is that a racist remark?

I suppose it doesn't matter whether it's true or not, racist or not. It's unsportsmanlike to say it, and deserves a T, just like saying "You're the worst ref I've ever seen". Automatic whack, regardless of looking at the coach's schedule to see who worked there last week or the week before.

Jim, I was well aware of what your position was from your very first post. It's nothing new to me. You don't feel that calling someone a "bigot" is a racist remark. Well, that's your opinion, and I've already stated that you are certainly entitled to it.

My opinion is that you're completely wrong. My opinion is that calling someone a "bigot" under the circumstances outlined in Larry's first post could not possibly be interpreted as anything but a racially-related remark. Obviously Larry, who was there and had it pulled on him, thought it was racial in nature too, right from the git-go. He's already posted to that effect.

If you want to tolerate that kinda stuff, hey, go ahead. I won't...now or ever.

We just disagree, and neither one of us is gonna change the other's mind.

I know Jim can speak for himself. When did Jim say this comment was to be tolerated? I must have missed those words he put on this site. I think all Jim is saying (and I am saying as well) that the comment in itself is an opinion. Now even if the coach was 1000% correct that is his opinion. Now if someone has the opinion we are cheating, you cannot just ignore it and toss it away. Calling someone a bigot does not make you a racist, but in the context of the game that kind of personal comment would not be ignored. I do not know if that comment would be considered a flagrant foul, but it probably would be a T at the very least in my opinion. The coach just accused the officials of having bias. In my opinion this is not much different than if the coach pointing out the foul total and saying you live in the same town of his opponent. I agree calling someone a bigot might have a racially charged response, but to call it racist in my opinion is ridiculous. Remember that is my opinion and no one is going to change that. I have been doing this for some time. I can form my own opinion on this and many other topics. ;)

Peace

I agree. Never said that it was.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

Yes, it could be.


Now, my point.

It makes absolutely no difference whether the official was a bigot or not.

It makes absolutely no difference whether the coach was a bigot or not.

That's not the point, although you continue to hammer it home for some reason.

What matters is that it was a racist remark.

Why?

Because he called the official a bigot based on his belief that the official was making calls against his team because of the color of their skin.

Do you disagree with that last statement?

Do you not see the racist implications in that statement?

1) Well, that point is completely irrelevant.I'm not arguing that Jim ever said that the comment should be tolerated. I disagree completely with Jim's statement that the comment wasn't racial in nature.

2) I never said that anyone... you, Jim or anyone else...isn't entitled to their own opinion. It is my opinion though, for the record if I haven't previously stated it, that both of your opinions that the "bigot" remark wasn't racially related is just completely ludicrous.

We just disagree. Waste of time to debate it further.

Well it has sounded to me (I will only speak for me now) that you were suggesting that something was extra special or inappropriate about the coach's comments because he called someone a bigot. I find the comment just like many others made about official's integrity it just happen to accuse him of racism.

It involves race, so what? That is the crux of this issue in my opinion is that many do not want to be called a racist or a bigot (under any circumstances) and instead of taking the comments in context of the game and the everyday questioning of official’s integrity folks have to be offended that anyone suggest that it was not a big deal.

On the flip side of all of this, when someone suggests something might offend them, then those things are mocked and criticized heavily. Now because someone is called a racist the sky is falling. Just more of the same I guess.

Peace

So what?

Well, personally I'm not going to allow any racial, religious, ethnic, etc. comments to be made in any game that I officiate. I don't really care who those comments are coming from either. And I also don't get mad when I hear those types of comments. I didn't fall off a turnip truck, wander into the gym and have someone ask me if I'd like to officiate that night's game. I certainly realize that these comments are gonna be made occasionally; I'd haveta be awful damn naive or just plain stoopid to believe otherwise. But when comments like these are made, I have zero tolerance for them. I just unload the person that made the comments and then write a report to everyone that I can think of. Any further action after that is up to their league/governing body.

Questioning an official's integrity and callling an official a bigot are completely different acts.

Btw, I don't let anybody swear <b>at</b> me either, and that's got nothing to do with anyone questioning my integrity. There's other acts beside racial comments that will earn a quick flagrant "T" from me.

As I said, we disagree.

I disagree. Based on the context the sitch described the assistant coach was very clearly questioning the official's integrity. However, rather than alleging favoritism based on home town, team affiliation, alumni status, nepotism, caving to vocal coach/fans, or one of the more frequently heard accusations, this coach asserted bigotry as the basis for the official's perceived dishonest behavior. Aside from bigotry being more of a hot-button social issue, it is no different than any other affront to one's integrity.

Rut...did you actually read my post? I never said I was "bothered" by being called a racist or that I'm too sensitive or too thin-skinned to officiate...couldn't be farther from the truth. I wasn't even addressing the significance of accusations being thrown around on the court.

Instead, if you'll re-read my post you'll see that all I was addressing was your assertion that "Race is never a card; it is a reality of life". I used an experience I had on the floor to demonstrate that it can be and is used in an attempt to influence...it didn't work for the player in question because I'm not intimidated by ignorance and I refused to empower his accusation by overreacting to it and allowing it to become an issue.

All I'm saying is that people use hot-button topics or issues to push agendas and/or try to gain advantages. Race is certainly used in that manner; however, that doesn't detract from or dilute the reality of racism in our society which you have so eloquently described on many occasions in the past. But to say people don't abuse such topics for perceived advantage, influence, or even intimidation, then you're burying your head in the sand to that reality. I suspect you'll disagree with me, but disagreement is okay.

I love officiating...a few bonehead yahoos who try to manipulate me on the floor aren't going to change that.

If you noticed I responded to only one of your statements. I did not respond to everything you said. So you can stop trying to convince me of your feelings. ;)

You are actually surprised that someone might use an issue to their advantage? Is this not the American way?

Even if someone accuses someone of racism, not sure how they get an advantage by doing so? What did this coach get out of this accusation? If anything he lost credibility. If there was any racism involved, it was personal at best. Some of us are much more concerned with institutions and structures than what one guy might think. So I really do not get why someone would be so put off if someone accuses you of something like this and you know in your heart you have done nothing wrong.

Peace

He issued a T to a player who said, “Bullsh!t call!” and then T'd the asst coach who complained about it. Isn't that having rabbit ears? Isn't that what you said about my removing a fan who yelled, "That's bullsh!t."?
What was that you were saying in the other thread to me about walking and talking?....:rolleyes:

Is that inappropriate language for an NFHS game? What would you do about it? Would you have word with the coach? Or perhaps this is another one that you would just ignore? :rolleyes:


That's not racist??? Are you for real???:confused: :confused: :confused:

What do you think that something is? Perhaps it is being a racist! What gave me that clue...hmmm... Oh, it was when the coach said, "YOU ARE A BIGOT!"

Well, when that behavior is racism, it kind of puts it in the ballpark. Maybe, just maybe...:rolleyes:

Lastly just for clarification, would it be racist to accuse someone of being a member of a certain hood-wearing, cross-buring secret society? Or accusing someone of wearing a white hood and burning a cross?

What if a coach said to you, "You should be lynched?" Would you consider that racist?

Ahhhh...so now you're AGAINST T'ing players or coaches for objectionable language.

Tell ya what my friend. Why don't you go figure out exactly what your position is & get back to us when it's all clear to you.

OK?

How about a hypothetical situation where the official is actually a bigot? And the official was in fact making calls against his team because of the color of their skin? Is this still a racist remark?

What if the partners didn't help the official out not because they were weak, but because they agreed with the assistant coach and left the official out to hang deliberately? Again this is strictly a hypothetical situation and I don't mean to imply this occured in this situation at all.

If someone is a bigot and you call him a bigot, is this a racist remark? How can the truth be a racist remark?

Now that's funny...LOL

Yes, it would. Whether the allegation is true or not has nothing to do with whether it's racist or not. If you accuse me of making calls against your team because of the color of their skin, that's a racist remark, allegation, has racial overtones, whatever you want to call it.

Do you think the coach would have called him a bigot if he had been black?

I have heard black coaches call black officials bigoted in my time. "You are a bigot...You hate your own race!"

We are talking about coaches here.

No, he might have called him a sell out. That has nothing to do with racism.

Peace

I was going to say the exact same thing...and to me that would go to integrity. In fact, to me, any word/phrase that isn't a direct racial epitath, doesn't fall under the title of racism in this scenario. JMO

I'm confused as hell now.

What exactly is the official supposed to be selling out, if not his race?

Please explain.

It's a derogatory (IMO) term/phrase ("sell-out"; "you're selling out your people", etc) I've heard some African-Americans use. It may be used within other ethnic/racial cultures, I don't know. But I have heard it, many times. And to me I always take it as someone questioning another's motives and/or integrity for making a certain, unpopular decision.

Now I'm even more confused.....

By "your people", do you mean that the black coach is saying that the black official is a bigot because he is selling out his people-i.e. his fellow African-Americans?

If so, please explain how this could <b>not</b> be racial in nature?

If not, please enlighten me as to <b>why</b> this isn't racial.

I do not think this is possible. People have been telling you it is different and you insist it is the same thing or is an offensive situation. There is no way anyone is going to enlighten you when you do not really want to be enlightened.

Peace

Actually, I am enlightened when it comes to you. You're predictable as hell and you'll never change. If a white guy says something to a black guy, it's racial. If a black guy says exactly the same thing to a white guy, it's <b>not</b> racial, but there's no use explaining it because if you're not black, you'll never will be able to understand anything about racism anyway.

That pretty much cover it?

Btw, that's why I was responding to BadNewsRef and not to you. It's a complete waste of time trying to talk to you. I always <b>know</b> what you're going to say.

Actually you do not know me at all. And you do not know how I deal with all kinds of adversity or white people. I grew up in a white community and went to largely white schools and I know the difference between a racial incident and a reference to race. And it seems like any reference, comment or pointing out anything dealing with race makes you extremely uncomfortable on many levels. And it is not just a Black guy telling you this, it is a bunch of people that half the time do not agree with me are telling you how much you are missing the boat on this issue.

If you only wanted one person to read your posts or respond to you, then send them a PM. Then you will never have to worry about who responds or comments to you on a public forum.

Also I really could give a damn what some internet officials says about me when I deal with people of many more races than you ever will or ever have in your old tired life.

Buuuubye!!!

Peace

JimGolf -- making a statement to someone, whether it is true or not, does not invalidate the fact that it is neither racist nor true. Weather calling someone who is a racist a bigot is true or not, the statement made to that person, in either case, is a racist statement and in and of itself would warrant a flagrant T IMO.

Its like calling someone a f@g -- wether true or not its derogatory because the terms connotation is a derogatory one.

Calling someone a f@g is a derogatory term. Calling someone a "n@gg@r" is a derogatory term. "Accusing" someone of bigotry is not in any way derogatory and might be actually true in many cases. I guess if someone accuses a Police force of having bigotry in their department (despite evidence to back that up with racial profiling or possible shootings), the person making that statement is a racist. Remember, Martin Luther King went all over this country accusing bigotry and racism in many aspects of life. By that logic everything MLK stood for and was fighting against was all based on his own personal racist feelings. I guess people like Marcus Garvey, W.E.B Dubois and even people like Cornell West, Dr. Alvin Pousaint (sp?) and Chris Rock are all a bunch of racists because they have pointed out bigotry in their writings, lectures, teachings and speeches/stand up acts.

Peace

Did i say the person saying it was a bigot or racist?

I think some of you blow your whistles to hard and its depriving your brain of much needed oxygen. Seems like i said that someone saying "Hey you are a bigot." is a racist remark in and of itself.

I may make some boring, bland comments, and does that make me boring or bland. No -- dealing with that statement as it is and as it stands alone is a racist statement.

Youm might let a coach call you a bigot and laugh it off because hey it could be true -- but to me thats a personal attack and a racist one at I am going to toss him for that.

Thanks, Rut. I've been getting this strange de javu throughtout this thread. I've finally realized that it reminds me of the "Diversity" episode of The Office where the idiot boss randomly tells people, "Don't say that, it's offensive." about clearly non-offensive remarks. I'm at a complete loss to understand why people claim calling somebody a bigot is a racist remark. By calling somebody a bigot, you are accusing them of exhibiting bigoted behavior or expressing bigoted attitudes. In other words, you're attacking that person's character; you are not, however, discriminating or exhibiting prejudice based on that person's race.

A character attack from a coach will earn him just as rapid a dismissal as a racist remark, however.

Please, explain to me in small, easy to understand words (because I'm a bear of very little brain) why a coach calling you a bigot is a racist remark. As I understand it, racism by its very nature is not about character, it's about race. So where do you find the racism in this comment?

You gotta be kidding.

You pull the race card. It's your trademark.

Anybody that don't know that just hasn't been paying attention.

Well, you've got a completely black team playing a completely white team, and a black coach telling a white referee that he's a bigot? Now whatintheheck does that coach think that official could <b>possibly</b> be bigoted at? Assistant coaches, in general?

How about you telling me that in small, easy to understand words?

He may be accusing you of being racist. But that, in itself, is not a racist remark. It's a character attack, to be sure. But not automatically racist.

Well, I'm not sure if I understand your logic, but I know where you're coming from now anyway.

Thanks.

Now feel free to go reply to Nevada's treatise. :D

LOL, I'm at 32,000 words and still going. I'll post it when I'm done. :p

Good luck. My eyes glazed over and I passed out at about the 900-word mark.

There should be a Forum rule requiring Nevada to post a warning with every one of his dissertations- <i>"CAUTION- may cause drowsiness. Do not operate heavy equipment while reading"</i>. :D

I can only aspire to such garrulous verbosity. Though sometimes I think I give him a run for his money. :cool:

I can answer that for deecee.

Read every post I've written in this thread. I explained it over and over. If for some reason you can't find one of my posts, let me know and I'll be glad to explain it one more time.

Jim,
Yes, it would probably be perceived as racist, because few bigots know they are....
mick

Nope. You missed the point, Dan. Why did my post quote you first? Since I was sarcastically responding to what you said. I even put the :rolleyes: .

I would have issued those Ts myself. I would have even made that last one flagrant.

You are the one who is flip-flopping. In one thread you tell me that it is having rabbit ears to do something about someone saying "bullsh!t" and then in this thread you praise the official for taking care of business. You can't have it both ways.

"Why don't you go figure out exactly what your position is & get back to us when it's all clear to you."---Back at ya.

I didn't express surprise; on the contrary my observation is that it happens all the time on levels small, large and everywhere in between.

Advantage is gained when the accusation causes change-of-behavior and that change-of-behavior favors the accuser. Again, happens all the time, but only when the accused allows it to happen.

I agree institutions and structures are more important than ignorant or manipulative actions. I don't think I've empowered the individual accuser in anything I've said.

I'm not offended when accused of something I'm not guilty of...but I still have to address it to keep it from becoming something it is not.

And I'm not addressing racism and only racism, but the actions of anyone who uses any hot-topic issue...race, gender, religion, politics, sexual preference, etc, etc, etc...in an attempt to gain influence or advantage of any type. Not that complicated...

Enjoying the discussion...:)

Good point and I agree. Except for "politics" maybe. That might be a little bit of a stretch; I've never been called a "f***ing Republican" out on the court before. :)

As an official, I think that you kinda expect the normal attempts by coaches or players to gain an advantage by whining at or trying to work you. That type of behavior almost comes with the territory, like it or not. You can either deal with it or not also, but at least you usually try to control it somewhat through warnings, "T"s etc. When it gets into the topics that you mentioned above though, then the person doing the yapping is making their attempt to influence the official way too personal; it's turned from a means of trying to influence a call into an outright attack. It's kinda like the old rule of thumb- "let 'em attack the uniform but not the man inside the uniform". Iow, it's almost like the difference between a "misdemeanor" and a "felony; different degrees of seriousness carrying different penalties.

One type of behavior is usually just a normal part of the game, even though most of us might wish that it wasn't. The other type of behavior has no place in the game imo.

Jurassic,

BITS pretty much has given answers that closely describe my line of thinking.

If I were ref'n a game involving a predominantly Mexican-American team and their coach yelled at me "you just don't like Mexicans!", he would get T'd up, but I wouldn't considered it a racist remark, I would consider it an attack against my integrity and impartiality. The same if I were called a bigot or sell-out. To me they are character attacks, not racial attacks.