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-   -   Class 5A State Finals--Florida (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/27394-class-5a-state-finals-florida.html)

Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 13, 2006 04:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Do we really want three 50+ officials out there chasing 17 yr old players up and down the court on a State Final?
Why not? :confused: I've seen it on NCAA championship games.

mick Thu Jul 13, 2006 06:47am
in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This made me think about other states. Has this happen in other states. I cannot even think of a single female official to work a post season boy's game here, let alone a state final.
Rut,
I've never heard of more than on woman official in a boys' state final, but oatmealqueen has worked a boys' final at all 4 divisions in Michigan.
mick

Raymond Thu Jul 13, 2006 07:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Wouldn't the counter effects of aging actually push the more senior official down the ladder? For example, the degrading physical qualities of a 60 year old ref who has been in it for 30 years might put him on par with a 7 yr ref.

I don't know what the average age is that most HS officials take up the avocation, but let's just guess that it is about age 30. That means that your 10 year official is 40 and your 20 year vet is 50.
Do we really want three 50+ officials out there chasing 17 yr old players up and down the court on a State Final?
In my association, older (50+) officials who work top shelf games only lose those games through injury and/or retirement. I have yet to see any of them get "pushed down the ladder".

Also, for some odd reason, the average starting age for officials around here seems to be a lot higher than what I see in other areas of the Southeast. We only have one (1) high-quality official who is under 30 (IREFU2, correct me if I'm wrong). When I go to out-of-town camps I see a lot of good, young (under-30) officials.

zebraman Thu Jul 13, 2006 08:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Do we really want three 50+ officials out there chasing 17 yr old players up and down the court on a State Final?
If they can still do it, with all that experience.... heck yes we do!

Z

Jimgolf Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:42am
Oatmealqueen officiating at 4 boys finals is quite an achievement - kudos to her. This is at least one instance where Michigan's scheduling quirk seems to have benefitted someone!

For other states where the seasons are simultaneous, are boys games and girls games assigned by different associations? If so, this might be part of the problem. Why shouldn't officials for boys and girls games come from the same pool?

IREFU2 Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
In my area there just aren't many female officials from which to pull. I would be really generous if I were to guess that there are 10 women in our local association.

The best of those is inactive b/c her college schedule is so heavy (2 major D1's, 4 mid-major D1's, one D2, one D3). She worked boys' games during the regular season and district play-offs but our commissioner would only nominate her for girls' side when it came time for the state tourney. She, IMO, is the best referee, man or woman, who I've seen in my association.

The next best lady ref starting officiating with me a little less than 5 years ago and she is in 4 college conferences already (including one mid-major D1). She's worked BJV but I'm pretty sure she hasn't done any BV games as of yet.

There is one other high quality female official on the board. She also does some BJV but no BV at all. After her the drop-off in talent in female officials on my board is precipitous, IMO.

We have quite a few high-quality male officials who do not work college basketball, but only one high-quality female who doesn't. Quality female officials get gobbled up by the college ranks. Male officials have to grind a little more.

Here's the question: Do you want your best female official working the Girls' state championship or the Boys' state championship?

My personal opinion, but I think the girls who play the game like seeing a female ref working the important GIRLS games.
Well said!

mick Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:13am
[quote=Jimgolf]Oatmealqueen officiating at 4 boys finals is quite an achievement - kudos to her. This is at least one instance where Michigan's scheduling quirk seems to have benefitted someone![quote]

Yeah, Jim.
She probably has a coupla grand slams.
...And then there's softball....
mick

JRutledge Thu Jul 13, 2006 04:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
For other states where the seasons are simultaneous, are boys games and girls games assigned by different associations? If so, this might be part of the problem. Why shouldn't officials for boys and girls games come from the same pool?
Boy's and Girl's basketball are not the same game. That should be enough to keep the pools separate.

Peace

zebraman Thu Jul 13, 2006 04:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
For other states where the seasons are simultaneous, are boys games and girls games assigned by different associations? If so, this might be part of the problem. Why shouldn't officials for boys and girls games come from the same pool?
In Washington State, some areas have merged associations that assign the same pool for girls and boys games. Others have separate associations (one for girls and one for boys), but even in those areas many of us choose to work for both associations thereby creating the same pool.

Most associations have a local rule where you are limited to how many consecutive times you can go to state in a row for that particular association. So sometimes you see the same official working a girls state tournament one year and a boys state tournament the following year.

Z

M&M Guy Thu Jul 13, 2006 04:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Boy's and Girl's basketball are not the same game. That should be enough to keep the pools separate.

Peace
Grade school and high school aren't the same game either; should those pools of officials be kept separate as well?

JRutledge Thu Jul 13, 2006 05:33pm
Yes.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Grade school and high school aren't the same game either; should those pools of officials be kept separate as well?
In my opinion the answer to that is yes. And the reality to that question is this already takes place all over the place. Unless someone does not have a real job, not too many people can work several levels and be affective as an official working all levels, all the time.

Peace

Nevadaref Thu Jul 13, 2006 06:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Why not? :confused: I've seen it on NCAA championship games.
I'm not saying that it doesn't in fact happen, I'm asking if it is a good thing. Are we putting the best product on the floor to provide the best service for the athletes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
In my association, older (50+) officials who work top shelf games only lose those games through injury and/or retirement. I have yet to see any of them get "pushed down the ladder".
I'm not contesting the facts of the way it is. I'm asking you:

Are you happy with that? Is that a good system? Do you think that their spots should be up for grabs each year if there are people out there who can make that challenge?

M&M Guy Thu Jul 13, 2006 08:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
In my opinion the answer to that is yes. And the reality to that question is this already takes place all over the place. Unless someone does not have a real job, not too many people can work several levels and be affective as an official working all levels, all the time.

Peace
So, are you saying that there should be a pool/association of officials that just does grade school games? And there's a different pool/association of officials that work HS varsity boys? And then a different association that works only HS girls? And the members of each association shouldn't work games that the other associations work?

JRutledge Thu Jul 13, 2006 09:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
So, are you saying that there should be a pool/association of officials that just does grade school games? And there's a different pool/association of officials that work HS varsity boys? And then a different association that works only HS girls? And the members of each association shouldn't work games that the other associations work?
How did grade school come into this conversation?

In our state you cannot work both Boy's and Girl's playoffs. You definitely cannot work Men's and Women's basketball at the same time.

In many cases you cannot get assigned both boy's and girl's basketball without getting a lot of grief for it (might hurt in assignment with boy's games for sure).

I know I do not speak for myself on this issue. I do not work both by choice and by the accepted practices of assignors and fellow officials. I know an assignor that told and official he would not be hired in his conference because he was a "girl's official." So yes, there is a pool of officials that only make themselves available for one side or the other. And let us not talk about college officiating and how that is even more split.

Peace

Camron Rust Thu Jul 13, 2006 09:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Why does your state/local association believe that it takes that long for an official to be of top quality?
It doesn't. It's just an observation of the typical career projression of the majority of officials. Some get there much quicker, some never do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Wouldn't the counter effects of aging actually push the more senior official down the ladder? For example, the degrading physical qualities of a 60 year old ref who has been in it for 30 years might put him on par with a 7 yr ref.
Come on, we're not talking 60 year olds. The guys I'm talking about are in their 30's and 40's. I certainly agree with you on your point...there comes a time when age takes it's toll. There are very few 60 year old ref's working varsity ball and those that are work lower levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I don't know what the average age is that most HS officials take up the avocation, but let's just guess that it is about age 30. That means that your 10 year official is 40 and your 20 year vet is 50.
Do we really want three 50+ officials out there chasing 17 yr old players up and down the court on a State Final?
Again, wrong ages. Most of the bunch is 35-40 with may a couple approaching 50....most of them also work college ball. They are the best officials, even if a couple of them couldn't match up with a 17 year old in a sprint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Clearly experience and age are on opposite sides of the scales. As one gains experience the cost is paid by your youth fading away..
So shouldn't we strive to strike an optimum balance between the two?
What is that point? I think that would make for an interesting debate.
Absolutely. But the point of my posts was that some good officials are giving it up before they even have any real experience...after 2-4 years. It's a phenomona all to common in modern culture....everyone wants to be hired into a CEO position straight out of college.


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