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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 03, 2006, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this play, but the deception involved in the wrong-end-of-the-court play is of a different kind, or flavor or degree than a pump fake.

The pump fake is entirely within the spirit of the game, it's offense versus defense and the offense gains an advantage through more clever play. The wrong-end-of-the-court play doesn't pit the offense and defense head-to-head with equal opportunity, it simply uses the confusion that often surrounds an otherwise meaningless artifact of the game (i.e., changing baskets after the half) to potentially earn an uncontested basket. You can argue that the defense is at fault for not being aware, but the two situations just feel different. One is a triumph of clever play and skill over a defender with an equal opportunity, the other is too-clever-by-half manipulation and deception.
I know what you mean; I know I would be uncomfortable standing in between the player doing the throw-in and the rest of the team, so I would probably give it away by pointing the right direction again.

Yes, it's deception, but it is still using things that are part of the game of basketball - running, dribbling, passing, shooting. It's not using some something "external", like sound effects, goats, or whipped creme. At least that's where I would draw the line.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 03, 2006, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I know what you mean; I know I would be uncomfortable standing in between the player doing the throw-in and the rest of the team, so I would probably give it away by pointing the right direction again.

Yes, it's deception, but it is still using things that are part of the game of basketball - running, dribbling, passing, shooting. It's not using some something "external", like sound effects, goats, or whipped creme. At least that's where I would draw the line.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand my point of view. Goats and whipped creme I'm okay with.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 03, 2006, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
Goats and whipped creme I'm okay with.
Can I get a video of one of your games?

Or, maybe I can just borrow it from Eddie Griffin.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 03, 2006, 05:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee
I mean if a player can go up against heavy pressure and get fouled and make a tough strong finish how is a yell gonna scare him off. If it does maybe he should be thinkging about how he is going to approach his tee the following moring.
A defender is supposed to block a shot by defending, not by distracting his opponent(s). Therefore, the shooter will expect a defender to try to block his shot, to steal the ball and sometimes to get fouled. He will not expect anyone to imitate a monkey. Even if the action doesn't have a direct effect upon the shot (and it usually has, anyway), the try itself is a clear (or it is to me at least ) example of unsportsmanlike conduct.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 03, 2006, 07:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar
A defender is supposed to block a shot by defending, not by distracting his opponent(s).
Can you please cite a rule- NFHS or NCAA- that will back up that statement?

Officials can't make calls based on their own personal likes and dislikes.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 12:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I know what you mean; I know I would be uncomfortable standing in between the player doing the throw-in and the rest of the team, so I would probably give it away by pointing the right direction again.

Yes, it's deception, but it is still using things that are part of the game of basketball - running, dribbling, passing, shooting.
You guys are kidding, right? It's only deception in the way that an iso play is deception. And if the other team is stupid enough to fall for it....

Although, if a team is 50 points ahead and they try this, I gotta admit, I'll interfere. But the only two times I've seen it work, it was the team that was way, way behind that tried it and pulled it off. No way I'm gonna do anything to stop that!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 02:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Can you please cite a rule- NFHS or NCAA- that will back up that statement?

Officials can't make calls based on their own personal likes and dislikes.
It is not in the spirit and intent of the rules.
I also had a look at the NCAA rulebook and found this:

Rule 10. Fouls and penalties
"[...] Direct technical fouls include, but are not limited to, infractions that are unsporting in nature, such as acts of deceit, and disrespectful or vulgar remarks to officials or opponents."

FIBA also says:
38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.
38.1.3 Any deliberate or repeated non-cooperation or non-compliance with the spirit of this rule shall be considered as a technical foul.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 04:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar
It is not in the spirit and intent of the rules.
I also had a look at the NCAA rulebook and found this:

Rule 10. Fouls and penalties
"[...] Direct technical fouls include, but are not limited to, infractions that are unsporting in nature, such as acts of deceit, and disrespectful or vulgar remarks to officials or opponents."

FIBA also says:
38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.
38.1.3 Any deliberate or repeated non-cooperation or non-compliance with the spirit of this rule shall be considered as a technical foul.
Dude, yelling from someone from behind is not considered an unsporting act under NFHS or NCAA rules, unless what the person actually yells is unsporting by itself- i.e. swearing, trash-talk, etc. Iow, it might be a "T" under FIBA rules, but it sureasheck isn't a "T" over here.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 06:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Dude, yelling from someone from behind is not considered an unsporting act under NFHS or NCAA rules, unless what the person actually yells is unsporting by itself- i.e. swearing, trash-talk, etc. Iow, it might be a "T" under FIBA rules, but it sureasheck isn't a "T" over here.
I see, but what about the "woof woof" play then?
It is an "act of deceit", isn't it?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 06:43am
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Originally Posted by TADW_Elessar
I see, but what about the "woof woof" play then?
It is an "act of deceit", isn't it?
Yup, but that doesn't automatically make it an unsporting act under NFHS and NCAA rules. We're trying to get clarification now, but the general rule of thumb is that if something is not specifically listed as being illegal, it probably is legal until definitively ruled upon.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 07:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, but that doesn't automatically make it an unsporting act under NFHS and NCAA rules. We're trying to get clarification now, but the general rule of thumb is that if something is not specifically listed as being illegal, it probably is legal until definitively ruled upon.
Let's wait for the new casebook, then
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Dude, yelling from someone from behind is not considered an unsporting act under NFHS or NCAA rules, unless what the person actually yells is unsporting by itself- i.e. swearing, trash-talk, etc. Iow, it might be a "T" under FIBA rules, but it sureasheck isn't a "T" over here.
Question for y'all regarding this. I seem to recall that it was a Technical foul if you ran up behind a player attempting a layup and slapped your hands together loudly to distract the player taking the shot. I would class this in the same boat as yelling at them when taking a shot. So am I wrong to think a T is deserved for clapping your hands together in this manner? I have not had to give one out but I have received one when I was in High school and that was like 25 years ago.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 10:08am
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Originally Posted by SmokeEater
So am I wrong to think a T is deserved for clapping your hands together in this manner?
Well, imo that shouldn't have been called 25 years ago and it also shouldn't be called now- at any level. There has never been a rule, case play or A.R. saying to call that act that I know of- NFHS or NCAA.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 10:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, imo that shouldn't have been called 25 years ago and it also shouldn't be called now- at any level. There has never been a rule, case play or A.R. saying to call that act that I know of- NFHS or NCAA.

Ok thanks. I was told it falls under Unsportsmanlike conduct.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 04, 2006, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Ok thanks. I was told it falls under Unsportsmanlike conduct.
Well, any official has the power to interpret any act as to whether it actually is unsporting or not. NFHS and NCAA rules certainly do acknowledge that.

In a case like this, I think that the best way for anyone to proceed is to talk to your local rules interpreter/evaluator, and try to get some direction from him. If your local guy wants that called, then you certainly should be calling it. Trying to attain uniformity in calls like this, so that players/coaches know what to expect, is paramount. All I can tell you though is, that from my own personal experience, clapping hands or shouting from behind an opponent are not considered as unsporting acts, and anyone making that call might not be considered for higher levels. Again, jmo; take it fwiw.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 10:32am.
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