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Danvrapp Mon Jul 23, 2001 03:18pm

Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Dan_ref Mon Jul 23, 2001 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

BktBallRef Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:03pm

I believe that Bob is saying the game is over and it's too late to correct the error.

bob jenkins Tue Jul 24, 2001 08:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?</b></quote>

I'm glad to see someone reads the articles. ;)

As I said (I hope) in the article, I got this question wrong.

The error is discovered during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. Had this not been complicated by the end of the game, we'd take B's points off the board and resume play.

So, the only conclusion (other than the given answer is incorrect) is that you can't correct an error after the game is over. I can't find any support for this in the rule book (other than a hyper-technical reading of 2-10-4).

Now, what if B's free throws only tied the game? The game isn't "over" so we correct the error? Now, by taking B's points off the board, A wins, so the game is over, so we can't correct the error, so the game is tied, and not over, so we correct the error ... ;)

<b><quote>22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Since the shot wasn't released before the horn, the shot doesn't count. The fact that A was fouled doesn't change this. 6-6-2

However, A was still fouled in the act of shooting, so she gets her three free throws, if they will affect the game. Once A misses the first, A can't tie or win, so the remaining throws aren't shot. 5-7-c1.

Thanks for the comments.

Dan_ref Tue Jul 24, 2001 09:00am

So we are saying that #18 is TRUE, take the points off &
declare A the winner? As Bob said, there doesn't seem
to be support in the rules for the end of the game
to take precedence over or nullify 2-10.

Danvrapp Tue Jul 24, 2001 09:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
So we are saying that #18 is TRUE, take the points off &
declare A the winner? As Bob said, there doesn't seem
to be support in the rules for the end of the game
to take precedence over or nullify 2-10.

Actually, from Bob's response, I believe #18 <b>is</b> false, but now we're trying to discern <i>why</i> it's false. Bob thinks it's because the game is over, and therefore the error no longer correctable, but I don't know...? Of all the provisions you need for a correctable error, I didn't think one of them states that the game can't be over. Of course, if you read Bob's post above, it appears that you could be caught in a vicious cycle, and I don't think that's entirely right, either ;)

Dan_ref Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:10am

Bob referenced 2-10-4, claiming you need a hyper-technical
reading of it to conclude #18 is false. Here it is (from
the NCAA book):


When an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the
point at which it was interrupted to correct the error,
unless the correction involves awarding merited free
throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession
since the error was made. In that case, play shall resume
as after any normal free throw attempts(s).


So now I'm wondering how does one read this and infer it
does not apply after the final horn? Are we saying that
"play shall be resumed" should be read as "play must
be resumed for this rule to apply"? That is
certainly a stretch. Is there another rule, case book play
or interpretation I'm missing?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 24th, 2001 at 10:14 AM]

BktBallRef Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:55am

What Bob said was that he also answered the question TRUE. But the theory is that the game is over. Therefore, the error cannot be corrected. As he said, there is no support for such a ruling in the rulebook, so it's unclear as to why the writers of the quiz arrived at this conclsuion. I would love to hear their explanation.

As for a sitch where the thrower only hit one FT and tied the game, I believe there is a casebook play that covers this type of situation. If the game ends in a tie, any corrections made to the score are made and the OT is played anyway. I can see where the same principle would apply in this situation.

Farfetched?

Dan_ref Tue Jul 24, 2001 01:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
What Bob said was that he also answered the question TRUE. But the theory is that the game is over. Therefore, the error cannot be corrected.

Interesting theory but it's not entirely consistent with
the rule that defines when the official's (referee's)
jurisdiction ends.

Quote:


As he said, there is no support for such a ruling in the rulebook, so it's unclear as to why the writers of the quiz arrived at this conclsuion. I would love to hear their explanation.

So would I.

Quote:


As for a sitch where the thrower only hit one FT and tied the game, I believe there is a casebook play that covers this type of situation. If the game ends in a tie, any corrections made to the score are made and the OT is played anyway. I can see where the same principle would apply in this situation.

Farfetched?

You are still referring to #18, no? I know of this case
and I can see where it might be used as an argument for
making #18 false, but I can't seem to find the darn thing.
Do you have the case number for this play?

Mark Dexter Tue Jul 24, 2001 03:50pm

I don't see what part of #18 would make this a false. It seems as if all of the CE requirements have been satisfied:

(1) It is the first dead ball after the clock has properly started after the error. (Shots, clock starts on inbounds, dead ball at expiration of playing time.)

(2) Points scored and time consumed prior to recognition were not nullified. (Remember - the only time that time is added is in an obvious timer's mistake or in the "specific situation" where A gets the ball after A scores.)

(3) Play was resumed from the point where the error was discovered.

I don't see anything in the situation or rules that would suggest not correcting this error. There is no OT involved, so 5.7.1 doesn't apply. (I think this is one of the situations that BktBallRef was referring.)

BktBallRef Tue Jul 24, 2001 05:02pm

Playing Devil's advocate
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

(3) Play was resumed from the point where the error was discovered.


Ah, but the game was over so there is no resumption of play. This may be the sticking point.

5-3 says, "The winning team is the one which has accumulated the greater number of points when the game ends."

It doesn't say "when the game ends, unless a correctalbe error situation exists."

PAULK1 Tue Jul 24, 2001 06:26pm

I agree that in play 18 it is correctable.
I wish to play devils advocate with 22.
since the foul had to come before the horn don't we have at least 1/10th of a second left on the clock we have definite knowledge since we blew the whistle before the horn. If we still have time left isn't the continous motion excetption
applied.


BktBallRef Tue Jul 24, 2001 07:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PAULK1
I wish to play devils advocate with 22.
since the foul had to come before the horn don't we have at least 1/10th of a second left on the clock we have definite knowledge since we blew the whistle before the horn. If we still have time left isn't the continous motion excetption
applied.

Yes, continous motion applies or else we wouldn't shoot the FTs. But the shot must still be released prior to the horn to count. It wasn't. No basket. With regards to the clock, you can only have definite knowledge if you were looking at the the clock when the whistle blew. Otherwise, we can't "guess" how much time should be on the clock.

I'm not convinced #18 is true. Hopefully, I'll never have this one! :)

Dan_ref Tue Jul 24, 2001 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef


I'm not convinced #18 is true. Hopefully, I'll never have this one! :)

And I'm not convinced that #18 is false ;) Hopefully,
neither you nor I will ever have this one! As for 5-3,
the game ends when the score is verified, which happens
when the officials leave the visual confines, which is also
when our jurisdiction ends. So the answer might actually
be when the table tells you that B was *not* in the bonus
just hight-tail it the f*** out of there! :p And make sure
your dressing room door is LOCKED!

BktBallRef Wed Jul 25, 2001 12:42am

I don't believe the official's jurisdiction has anything to do with this play. If it did, the score could easily be changed. When we say the score is verifed, we're saying that the scoreboard matches the book, everyone knows who wins and we're outta here. That's usually the extent of verifying the final score. I would still like to hear from Bob on what the author of the quiz was baseing his information on.

Bob, where are you?

bob jenkins Wed Jul 25, 2001 07:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't believe the official's jurisdiction has anything to do with this play. If it did, the score could easily be changed. When we say the score is verifed, we're saying that the scoreboard matches the book, everyone knows who wins and we're outta here. That's usually the extent of verifying the final score. I would still like to hear from Bob on what the author of the quiz was baseing his information on.

Bob, where are you?

I'm just watching. I don't know *why* the answer was given that way. I think it's one of two things:

1) The given answer was wrong (i.e., the error was correctable and A(?) wins the game).

2) You can't correct an error after the game is "over."

I'm looking for support for #2 -- but I haven't fouond much.

BktBallRef Wed Jul 25, 2001 09:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins


I'm just watching. I don't know *why* the answer was given that way. I think it's one of two things:

1) The given answer was wrong (i.e., the error was correctable and A(?) wins the game).

2) You can't correct an error after the game is "over."

I'm looking for support for #2 -- but I haven't found much.

Nor have I. If 1) is the correct, then we can forgive them for being wrong. :)

If 2) is correct, I sure wish they'd explain it. :(

Dan_ref Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't believe the official's jurisdiction has anything to do with this play. If it did, the score could easily be changed. When we say the score is verifed, we're saying that the scoreboard matches the book, everyone knows who wins and we're outta here. That's usually the extent of verifying the final score. I would still like to hear from Bob on what the author of the quiz was baseing his information on.

Bob, where are you?

Not to beat this to death but I think jurisdiction and
score verification is the point. I agree that verification
almost always means making sure the book matches the
scoreboard but it can also mean making sure the book itself
is correct. This case is where the scoreboard (oops,
I should have said scorebook is incorrect)
is
incorrect. There's also guidance on this in NCAA women's
mechanics, where the officials are required to stick around if the final score differential is 4 points or less.
Granted, this is done to ensure that no *timing* mistakes
have been made, but this might be extended to include 2-10
issues as well. It sure would be good to have the quiz
author's opinion on this.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 25th, 2001 at 12:08 PM]

Mark Dexter Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:01am

I think more important here would be the safety of the scorekeepers who caused the mess in the first place.

Approving the final score (to me, at least) means settling any discrepancies or errors, and then indicating that the score of the official (home) book is correct.

BktBallRef Wed Jul 25, 2001 04:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not to beat this to death but I think jurisdiction and
score verification is the point. I agree that verification
almost always means making sure the book matches the
scoreboard but it can also mean making sure the book itself
is correct.

Well, you are beating it to death! :)

It's not a point of jurisdiction. Everybody agrees that the jurisdiction has NOT ended. That's not the point. The point is whether the error can be corrected or not because the game is ever. It's obvious that the officials' still have jurisdiction but whoever wrote this believes that the error is not correctible, simply because the horn sounded.

Dan_ref Wed Jul 25, 2001 08:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not to beat this to death but I think jurisdiction and
score verification is the point. I agree that verification
almost always means making sure the book matches the
scoreboard but it can also mean making sure the book itself
is correct.

Well, you are beating it to death! :)

It's not a point of jurisdiction. Everybody agrees that the jurisdiction has NOT ended. That's not the point. The point is whether the error can be corrected or not because the game is ever. It's obvious that the officials' still have jurisdiction but whoever wrote this believes that the error is not correctible, simply because the horn sounded.

Excuse me a second while I get a bigger stick. :)

OK, I'm back now. So, if we have jurisdiction what else
(besides the quizzer's opinion) prevents us from utilizing
2-10? I think we agree that it's not so clear cut and we'll
both be happy to live with a definitive interpretation.
All I'm saying is that I can't for the life of me think
of anything other than jurisdiction to justify the given
answer and we agree that jurisdiction is not the issue.
You are saying that 2-10 no longer applies because the
game is "over", I'm saying the game is in fact not "over"
until the final score is verified, which coincides with
the end of our jurisdiction.

BktBallRef Wed Jul 25, 2001 09:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

You are saying that 2-10 no longer applies because the
game is "over", I'm saying the game is in fact not "over"
until the final score is verified, which coincides with
the end of our jurisdiction.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that seems to be what the gentleman who wrote the quiz is saying! BOING!

I think I just snapped! :D

I don't know if the man is right or wrong. Maybe he knows something I don't or perhaps he just put the wrong damn answer down! :)

Either way, jurisdiction ending has nothing to do with it, because it hasn't ended. He's baseing his interp. on soomething else. Heaven only knows what it is.

Mark Dexter Wed Jul 25, 2001 09:44pm

The biggest problem here is that (unless I'm missing it) there is no rule expressly permitting or prohibiting a correctable error from being corrected after the game has ended, but before approval of the final score. Maybe the author was just going on the assumption that if it's not in the book, it's not allowed (although that kinda conflicts with 2-3).

Oy! Can't someone just figure out why this would be false (if it is false!)

BktBallRef Wed Jul 25, 2001 09:52pm

No, we can't. That's why there's all this discussion.

Brian Watson Thu Jul 26, 2001 07:09am

I think we need a fed interp on this. If it was any other quarter we would correct the error after the horn, why would the final period be any different? I guess it would be wrong, but if this happened to me, I would wipe the points and run for the hills.

Danvrapp Thu Jul 26, 2001 08:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
I think we need a fed interp on this. If it was any other quarter we would correct the error after the horn, why would the final period be any different? ....
Hey hey! Someone using a little logic instead of the rule book...interesting!<br><br>I never really thought of it that way. Even though I know there are "special" rules that govern the end-of-game situation, this may be the best way to approach it, especially if we're unsure; which, to this point, it looks like we are!<br><br>I'd still like to hear their reasoning on this one, though.... :confused:

Dan_ref Thu Jul 26, 2001 09:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

You are saying that 2-10 no longer applies because the
game is "over", I'm saying the game is in fact not "over"
until the final score is verified, which coincides with
the end of our jurisdiction.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that seems to be what the gentleman who wrote the quiz is saying! BOING!


We agree (although I was giving him the benefit of the doubt
by introducing jurisdiction)

Quote:


I think I just snapped! :D
Again, we agree :p

Quote:

I don't know if the man is right or wrong. Maybe he knows something I don't or perhaps he just put the wrong damn answer down! :)

Agree

Quote:

Either way, jurisdiction ending has nothing to do with it, because it hasn't ended. He's baseing his interp. on soomething else. Heaven only knows what it is.
Agree. Sh*t, there's nothing left to argue about.
We'll find something sooner or later! ;)

Richard Ogg Thu Jul 26, 2001 04:19pm

Consolation!
 
If there's one consolation, at least you know that you will <b>never</b> be going back to that school to ref again!

I hate to say it, but I think the rules would say wipe the score off, put <u>no</u> time back on the clock, declare the game over, and <b>phone your assignor to communicate <font size=+2>first</font> what happened</b> -- maybe even from the changing room, but certainly from your car.

bob jenkins Fri Jul 27, 2001 07:12am

I've tried to get in touch with the person who handed out the tests, but apparently I have the wrong email address.

I'll keep trying.

Until then, I'd hope whoever started this thread closes it before the SPCA comes after us.

BMA Wed Aug 01, 2001 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I've tried to get in touch with the person who handed out the tests, but apparently I have the wrong email address.

I'll keep trying.

Until then, I'd hope whoever started this thread closes it before the SPCA comes after us.

Have you had any luck in finding out if #18 was correctable
under 2-10

Oz Referee Wed Aug 01, 2001 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

Why would the other free throws not be attempted? Obviously the player is still entitled to the next 2 free throws. I understand that they can not have any impact on <b>this</B> game, but what about points for and against? I have played in several competitions where the final placings for finals have come down to who beat who, and by how much.

Can someone please explain this to a feeble referee?

Brian Watson Wed Aug 01, 2001 06:58pm

A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.

Dan_ref Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!

18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner.

False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was?

22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw.

True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots.

Hmm, I can't see why #18 is false, maybe I'm not reading
it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on
the clock for a correctable error.

On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is
released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted
it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally
at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact
the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are
not tried.

Why would the other free throws not be attempted? Obviously the player is still entitled to the next 2 free throws. I understand that they can not have any impact on <b>this</B> game, but what about points for and against? I have played in several competitions where the final placings for finals have come down to who beat who, and by how much.

Can someone please explain this to a feeble referee?

NCAA & NF rules agree that FT's are *not* attempted that have no bearing on the game. Play: A up by 3 pts. A1
fouls B1 on a 2 point shot as the horn sounds. No free
throws are attempted because B cannot win. Game over.
Points for & against have no bearing regardless of
tie-breaker procedure.

mick Thu Aug 02, 2001 05:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.


Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Brian Watson Thu Aug 02, 2001 07:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.


Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Sorry Mick I was referring to "real" play and not "summer" ball.

When it comes to summer junk just about anything goes and many rules seem to be made up as you go.

Since the original questions were "case book" type examples, I was pretending this was the middle of January.

mick Thu Aug 02, 2001 04:20pm

I resent that.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.

League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can.


Brian,

I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball.

But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies.

mick

Sorry Mick I was referring to "real" play and not "summer" ball.

When it comes to summer junk just about anything goes and many rules seem to be made up as you go.

Since the original questions were "case book" type examples, I was pretending this was the middle of January.

Our junk ball is in the winter,... I was pretending this was the "middle of January", too. ;)
mick

Oz Referee Sun Aug 05, 2001 05:28pm

Fair enough
 
OK fair enough, I can see the merit of the system where free throws that can't affect the outcome of a game are not attempted.

Having said that (and again I am a FIBA referee - so my perspective may be different to so other people here) isn't it possible that say Team A is up by 3, fouls B1 on a n attempt on the buzzer resulting in 2 free throws. NCAA rules would not have the player shoot these free throws, so Team A wins by 3.

Now for arguements sake on of the following scenarios occurs:

1. As game ends, Coach A goes of his head and gets a T.

2. Found to be an error on the scorsheet, and Team A was only up by 2 (or 1).

How would you handle this, accoring to NCAA rules? Do you bring the players out of locker rooms to shoot the free throws?

Just curious....

BktBallRef Sun Aug 05, 2001 07:16pm

Re: Fair enough
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Oz Referee
OK fair enough, I can see the merit of the system where free throws that can't affect the outcome of a game are not attempted.

Having said that (and again I am a FIBA referee - so my perspective may be different to so other people here) isn't it possible that say Team A is up by 3, fouls B1 on a n attempt on the buzzer resulting in 2 free throws. NCAA rules would not have the player shoot these free throws, so Team A wins by 3.

Now for arguements sake on of the following scenarios occurs:

1. As game ends, Coach A goes of his head and gets a T.

2. Found to be an error on the scorsheet, and Team A was only up by 2 (or 1).

How would you handle this, accoring to NCAA rules? Do you bring the players out of locker rooms to shoot the free throws?

FTs are not attempted <B>unless they would effect the outcome of the game.</B> In these situations, they would be attempted because they could effect the outcome..

Mark Dexter Sun Aug 05, 2001 08:40pm

You wouldn't bring the players out of the locker room, because once the officials approved the final score, the game was over.

Of course, if the T were issued before the officials hit the showers, the shots would be attempted.

BktBallRef Sun Aug 05, 2001 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
You wouldn't bring the players out of the locker room, because once the officials approved the final score, the game was over.

Of course, if the T were issued before the officials hit the showers, the shots would be attempted.

As long as the officials have not left the visual confines of the arena, you can most certainly bring players back onto the floor to attempt game deciding FTs.

Brian Watson Mon Aug 06, 2001 07:20am

Basically this would become what we would call a cluster. Thankfully, unless a coach walked off the floor, I cannot think of the players being the locker room post game before the officials. If it happened, you would pul them from the locker room (remember that Patriots-Dolphins game last year where they took the players back on the field like a 1/2 after the game "ended"...)

If your sitch happened:
You would shoot the two foul shots.
Then the two T's.
Pray that you do not go into OT.
Run like the wind.

Personaly, unless I was next to the bench when the horn goes off, I am not sticking around long enough to let the coach catch up to me and earn a T. I consider this preventive officiating in some cases and protecting the coach from himself in others.

Mark Dexter Tue Aug 07, 2001 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

As long as the officials have not left the visual confines of the arena, you can most certainly bring players back onto the floor to attempt game deciding FTs.

I was referring to the original scenario, in which the score had been approved. Of course, until the score is approved, you can call the team back from the airport gate as far as the rules are concerned.


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