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Two questions posed to us by Bob Jenkins in his Officiating.com article "What I learned at Camp - Part I" are posted below. The answers he gives are False & True, respectively. I wanted to discuss these answers, and discuss what is the "correct" procedure for these calls, and "why." I obviously don't have my rulebook handy!
18) Team A is leading 55 to 54 with 3 seconds remaining in the game when A-1 fouls B-2. B-2 makes both free throws. Team A completes the throw-in and time expires before they can get off a shot. The officials are then notified that team B was erroneously awarded the one-and-one. The referee cancels the free throws by team B and declares team A the winner. False. What should have happened? I would assume that this is a correctable error, but I'm not sure how it would be handled. Do you put the elapsed time back on the clock and give team B the ball? That'd be my guess, but assume you don't know how much time there was? 22) Score is 55-52 in favor of Team B. A-1, while in the act of shooting a 3-point goal is fouled, and before she releases the ball, time expires to end the game. The shot goes in! The official disallows the basket and declares the game over after A-1 misses her first free throw. True. I'd think that A-1 is an airborne shooter, and in that case the try doesn't end until the player isn't airborne anymore. However, regardless of the foul, I suppose the shooter still has the ball in her hands when the horn goes off, so the "shot" never really happened - so the ball was dead when the horn went off and before the shot was attempted; but, because of the foul, you shoot the shots. |
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it closely enough. In any case, never put time back on the clock for a correctable error. On #22, a player doesn't become airborne until the ball is released (4-1). For the last second shot to be counted it must be released *before* time ends (7-7-2a) and finally at the end of a game only those FTs will be made that impact the game result, so after the first miss the other 2 are not tried. |
I believe that Bob is saying the game is over and it's too late to correct the error.
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However, A was still fouled in the act of shooting, so she gets her three free throws, if they will affect the game. Once A misses the first, A can't tie or win, so the remaining throws aren't shot. 5-7-c1. Thanks for the comments. |
So we are saying that #18 is TRUE, take the points off &
declare A the winner? As Bob said, there doesn't seem to be support in the rules for the end of the game to take precedence over or nullify 2-10. |
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Bob referenced 2-10-4, claiming you need a hyper-technical
reading of it to conclude #18 is false. Here it is (from the NCAA book): When an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point at which it was interrupted to correct the error, unless the correction involves awarding merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made. In that case, play shall resume as after any normal free throw attempts(s). So now I'm wondering how does one read this and infer it does not apply after the final horn? Are we saying that "play shall be resumed" should be read as "play must be resumed for this rule to apply"? That is certainly a stretch. Is there another rule, case book play or interpretation I'm missing? [Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 24th, 2001 at 10:14 AM] |
What Bob said was that he also answered the question TRUE. But the theory is that the game is over. Therefore, the error cannot be corrected. As he said, there is no support for such a ruling in the rulebook, so it's unclear as to why the writers of the quiz arrived at this conclsuion. I would love to hear their explanation.
As for a sitch where the thrower only hit one FT and tied the game, I believe there is a casebook play that covers this type of situation. If the game ends in a tie, any corrections made to the score are made and the OT is played anyway. I can see where the same principle would apply in this situation. Farfetched? |
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the rule that defines when the official's (referee's) jurisdiction ends. Quote:
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and I can see where it might be used as an argument for making #18 false, but I can't seem to find the darn thing. Do you have the case number for this play? |
I don't see what part of #18 would make this a false. It seems as if all of the CE requirements have been satisfied:
(1) It is the first dead ball after the clock has properly started after the error. (Shots, clock starts on inbounds, dead ball at expiration of playing time.) (2) Points scored and time consumed prior to recognition were not nullified. (Remember - the only time that time is added is in an obvious timer's mistake or in the "specific situation" where A gets the ball after A scores.) (3) Play was resumed from the point where the error was discovered. I don't see anything in the situation or rules that would suggest not correcting this error. There is no OT involved, so 5.7.1 doesn't apply. (I think this is one of the situations that BktBallRef was referring.) |
Playing Devil's advocate
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5-3 says, "The winning team is the one which has accumulated the greater number of points when the game ends." It doesn't say "when the game ends, unless a correctalbe error situation exists." |
I agree that in play 18 it is correctable.
I wish to play devils advocate with 22. since the foul had to come before the horn don't we have at least 1/10th of a second left on the clock we have definite knowledge since we blew the whistle before the horn. If we still have time left isn't the continous motion excetption applied. |
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I'm not convinced #18 is true. Hopefully, I'll never have this one! :) |
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neither you nor I will ever have this one! As for 5-3, the game ends when the score is verified, which happens when the officials leave the visual confines, which is also when our jurisdiction ends. So the answer might actually be when the table tells you that B was *not* in the bonus just hight-tail it the f*** out of there! :p And make sure your dressing room door is LOCKED! |
I don't believe the official's jurisdiction has anything to do with this play. If it did, the score could easily be changed. When we say the score is verifed, we're saying that the scoreboard matches the book, everyone knows who wins and we're outta here. That's usually the extent of verifying the final score. I would still like to hear from Bob on what the author of the quiz was baseing his information on.
Bob, where are you? |
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1) The given answer was wrong (i.e., the error was correctable and A(?) wins the game). 2) You can't correct an error after the game is "over." I'm looking for support for #2 -- but I haven't fouond much. |
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If 2) is correct, I sure wish they'd explain it. :( |
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score verification is the point. I agree that verification almost always means making sure the book matches the scoreboard but it can also mean making sure the book itself is correct. This case is where the scoreboard (oops, I should have said scorebook is incorrect) is incorrect. There's also guidance on this in NCAA women's mechanics, where the officials are required to stick around if the final score differential is 4 points or less. Granted, this is done to ensure that no *timing* mistakes have been made, but this might be extended to include 2-10 issues as well. It sure would be good to have the quiz author's opinion on this. [Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 25th, 2001 at 12:08 PM] |
I think more important here would be the safety of the scorekeepers who caused the mess in the first place.
Approving the final score (to me, at least) means settling any discrepancies or errors, and then indicating that the score of the official (home) book is correct. |
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It's not a point of jurisdiction. Everybody agrees that the jurisdiction has NOT ended. That's not the point. The point is whether the error can be corrected or not because the game is ever. It's obvious that the officials' still have jurisdiction but whoever wrote this believes that the error is not correctible, simply because the horn sounded. |
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OK, I'm back now. So, if we have jurisdiction what else (besides the quizzer's opinion) prevents us from utilizing 2-10? I think we agree that it's not so clear cut and we'll both be happy to live with a definitive interpretation. All I'm saying is that I can't for the life of me think of anything other than jurisdiction to justify the given answer and we agree that jurisdiction is not the issue. You are saying that 2-10 no longer applies because the game is "over", I'm saying the game is in fact not "over" until the final score is verified, which coincides with the end of our jurisdiction. |
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I think I just snapped! :D I don't know if the man is right or wrong. Maybe he knows something I don't or perhaps he just put the wrong damn answer down! :) Either way, jurisdiction ending has nothing to do with it, because it hasn't ended. He's baseing his interp. on soomething else. Heaven only knows what it is. |
The biggest problem here is that (unless I'm missing it) there is no rule expressly permitting or prohibiting a correctable error from being corrected after the game has ended, but before approval of the final score. Maybe the author was just going on the assumption that if it's not in the book, it's not allowed (although that kinda conflicts with 2-3).
Oy! Can't someone just figure out why this would be false (if it is false!) |
No, we can't. That's why there's all this discussion.
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I think we need a fed interp on this. If it was any other quarter we would correct the error after the horn, why would the final period be any different? I guess it would be wrong, but if this happened to me, I would wipe the points and run for the hills.
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by introducing jurisdiction) Quote:
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We'll find something sooner or later! ;) |
Consolation!
If there's one consolation, at least you know that you will <b>never</b> be going back to that school to ref again!
I hate to say it, but I think the rules would say wipe the score off, put <u>no</u> time back on the clock, declare the game over, and <b>phone your assignor to communicate <font size=+2>first</font> what happened</b> -- maybe even from the changing room, but certainly from your car. |
I've tried to get in touch with the person who handed out the tests, but apparently I have the wrong email address.
I'll keep trying. Until then, I'd hope whoever started this thread closes it before the SPCA comes after us. |
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under 2-10 |
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Can someone please explain this to a feeble referee? |
A league may use that as a tie breaker, but by rule once the outcome is no longer in doubt, all action stops, game over.
League rules really cannot supercede the rule book. Only the state associations and the NCAA can. |
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fouls B1 on a 2 point shot as the horn sounds. No free throws are attempted because B cannot win. Game over. Points for & against have no bearing regardless of tie-breaker procedure. |
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Brian, I agree when it comes to high school or CCA ball. But, I occasionally work an adult Recreation league that goes Fed rules with jewelry allowed and various and sundry uniform incongruencies. mick |
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When it comes to summer junk just about anything goes and many rules seem to be made up as you go. Since the original questions were "case book" type examples, I was pretending this was the middle of January. |
I resent that.
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mick |
Fair enough
OK fair enough, I can see the merit of the system where free throws that can't affect the outcome of a game are not attempted.
Having said that (and again I am a FIBA referee - so my perspective may be different to so other people here) isn't it possible that say Team A is up by 3, fouls B1 on a n attempt on the buzzer resulting in 2 free throws. NCAA rules would not have the player shoot these free throws, so Team A wins by 3. Now for arguements sake on of the following scenarios occurs: 1. As game ends, Coach A goes of his head and gets a T. 2. Found to be an error on the scorsheet, and Team A was only up by 2 (or 1). How would you handle this, accoring to NCAA rules? Do you bring the players out of locker rooms to shoot the free throws? Just curious.... |
Re: Fair enough
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You wouldn't bring the players out of the locker room, because once the officials approved the final score, the game was over.
Of course, if the T were issued before the officials hit the showers, the shots would be attempted. |
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Basically this would become what we would call a cluster. Thankfully, unless a coach walked off the floor, I cannot think of the players being the locker room post game before the officials. If it happened, you would pul them from the locker room (remember that Patriots-Dolphins game last year where they took the players back on the field like a 1/2 after the game "ended"...)
If your sitch happened: You would shoot the two foul shots. Then the two T's. Pray that you do not go into OT. Run like the wind. Personaly, unless I was next to the bench when the horn goes off, I am not sticking around long enough to let the coach catch up to me and earn a T. I consider this preventive officiating in some cases and protecting the coach from himself in others. |
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