The other day I got a call to fill in for someone in 3 mens league games. Usually, I don't do "jerkball" but I hadn't reffed in almost two weeks and I needed the exercise so I took the games.

They went OK, actually. However, my partner threw a guy out in the second game. I heard what the guy said to deserve the ejection and there is no doubt he deserved it. I found out later what started it.

Coming out of a timeout, A1 was to inbound sideline just above the free throw line in frontcourt. My partner was administering and bounced the ball to A1. Apparently, A1 asked my partner if he could inbound into the backcourt. My partner replied, "Try it and you'll find out."

A1 looked at him in disbelief and asked again, this time not so politely. My partner repeated his answer. A1 then started telling my partner to stop "being an ***." My partner then blew the whistle - <i>and called a five second inbound violation</i> (I thought that was the really cool part).

This really set A1 off and he then proceeded to unleash his entire vocabulary of "words you wouldn't say in front of your mother", as I once heard a veteran describe them.

As I stated above, my partner called a T, ruled it flagrant and ejected A1.

Just another day on the job.

Mark,
You have to be writing tongue-in-cheek.
mick

I'd probably answer that question if an 8th grader asked me but not an audlt.

Why not answer the question? If he asked politely. I would have said, yes. These aduls are playing under really old memory rules and have not seen a rule book in years if ever. Most information players receive is from officials and maybe their coaches. I would have answered the question. And played on.

IMHO:
I agree with you in principle. However, if you have done much "jerk-ball" you will know that the less communicaton you have with the "players" the better off you are going to be. The sarcastic answer had no place either. I'm sure a quick one word answer ie: YES would have been appropriate. On the other hand, I haven't had a men's league yet where Ts and ejections were not the norm and I'm not about to "get into it" or have a rules clinic with some used-ta-be or could-a-been.

Lets be a-dult!!! The world needs more DULTS!!!

Ubetcha, co...co...cold. (<i>is that co2ice?</i>)
And less Adolts.
mick

Those of you who regularly do mens leagues realize that, yes, T's and ejections are the norm most of the time and your patience wears thin. In this case, however, I'm not sure my partner necessarily meant his reply to be sarcastic. There have been times in HS games where I have been asked the same or similar questions. I have been told that the coach has primary responsibility for teaching their players the rules, not the official. I admit, I have given replies such as, "I really am not supposed to tell you" and "Ask your coach."

Frankly, I can't remember being asked ahead of time in a mens game if a certain action would be "legal". I'm not sure what I would answer. The probablility is that I would give a direct answer unless the answer was dependent on multiple factors. Then it would take too long.

Maybe I should just give my normal, standard answer I use all the time in all phases of my life - "Perhaps". :)

I would answer the question -- but how? Probably with something like "The general answer is 'Yes'" or maybe "Yes, but with some weird exceptions." The follow up question would receive "It too complicated for now; talk to me afterwards. Lets go."

That being said, I've done almost zero adult league work. (Three outings I think.) Basically jerk-ball is no fun, I don't really need the money, and my evenings are worth more than it offers. The biggest benefit would be the development of my skills, but I've just suffered the long way.

That said, I just agreed to be the regular ref for a men's league starting this week. I guess it runs late each summer as a fund raiser for our school athletic program. The chief hauncho told me I could set the rules myself. (That is, what exceptions to allow. Customary is hockey-style substitutions, which are fine with me as long as there is no advantage gained.) Last year they used varsity players to ref and they want to improve the quality, but not destroy the purpose (raising funds for the school). I said I would only ref games where fouls are tracked and players can foul out -- he agreed. I figured I need the exercise, plus the judgment practice I'll gain.

Interesting!! What would be the advantage gained, how do you judge that, and (most important) what is the signal!??

It's the 2nd half and team A gains control in their BC. A6 runs onto the floor in the FC as A5 leaves the floor. A1 hits A6 with a wide open pass under the basket.

In my judgment, that would be an advantage gained. The signal is the left hand extended straight up, in front of the chest with the palm of the right hand meeting the left fingertips. ;)

Smart Alec Reply
 

I'm sorry, fellow officials, but Mark's partner started this one with his smart*** reply of "try it and you'll find out." What would be wrong with a simple yes or no? The game of life (and basketball) is played by communicating, and Mark's partner certainly failed with his communciation skills. I'm betting that Mark's partner went into this game with a chip on his shoulder, and probably deserved all the crap he got from the players. Sure, the player in question was also wrong for his verbal tirade, but Mark's parter started it. I have found that if you treat players (even adult rec players) with respect, it goes a long way toward preventing problems. Treating them with respect (e.g. answering a simple question) is far different than knuckling under and being subservient to them.

With mass movements like those, it would make sense to have a linesman sitting in an elevated chair at half court.

Re: Smart Alec Reply
 

Yes, all those things are true but at some point there has to be a line between officiating, coaching or giving a player an advantage. Yes, the question could be answered easily enough. But players should be expected to know certain things, even though this board is filled with items that prove that they don't.

Let's say a player receives a pass, fumbles it and bats the ball to the floor before controlling it. He turns to you and says "Can I still dribble?" I'm not going to answer him. Are you?

I don't know that there is a right or wrong way to handle this. I think each individual will handle it in the way they feel is best. But I'm not going to blast a guy in a third party story, who isn't hear to justify his actions.

Re: Re: Smart Alec Reply
 

I couldn't agree more with JAdams -- officials need to be PROFESSIONAL at all times. If the events happened the way they were detailed in Mark's story, calling 5 seconds was not only not "cool," it was a complete A**HOLE thing to do. IMHO, it is officials that do that kind of crap that gives all of us a bad name.

As far as answering a player's question, "giving a player an advantage." Would you not tell a player he/she can run the baseline after returning from a timeout?

Give respect to earn respect.

Jake

Yes, I would. But that's just preventive officiating. It's also apples to oranges. There are situations when he can and when he can't run the baseline. That's also the type of thing that the crew communciates to each other to avoid a possible error. I'll tell him he can run the baseline or that it's a spot throw but I'm not going to tell him "And you can throw it into to a teammate out of bounds if you want to." That's what coaches are for.

As luck would have it, I had an inbound play directly in front of the team's bench today. The coach looked at me and asked, you guessed it, "Can he throw it into the backcourt?" I just raised an eyebrow at him and he said, "My bad. Of course he can."

Re: Re: Re: Re: Smart Alec Reply
 

Tony,
The raised eyebrow. YES!
May I use that?
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smart Alec Reply
 

Sure. My praw is I can only raise the left one! :D

Just for general information, I always tell a player (at any level) they can run the baseline (if it is true) coming out of a timeout. I also make the "sweeping" gesture with my hand. In fact, as soon as the timeout is called, I let my partner know they can run when they come back.

Usually, I say something to the player like, "It's after a made basket so you can run the endline."

Believe me, it saves a lot of grief.

If there is a spot throw-in, however, I just point to the spot and don't say anything. Sometimes I have a player ask if they can run (usually this is if the spot is on the endline under the opponents basket). For whatever reason, I usually reply, "You'll have to ask your coach." I say it matter-of-factly, not sarcastically.

I have had coaches argue that any throw-in along the opponent's endline is a "running" throw-in. Usually I just tell the coach "YOU'RE WRONG, GIBLETHEAD!!!"

I'm goin' with the eyebrow. ;)
mick

Mark
If you want to use preventitve officiating, why not tell the kid it's a spot throw in?
If you tell the player just something simple like "spot throw-in" or just "spot" the kids will know what they can do and there will be a lot less arguments when there is a violation.

If its a tight game with a lot of pressure. I'm going to tell the Offensive player its a spot throw in, you can go back to the wall whatever, and then I will tell Defense do not cross plane! (If there is no sideline space I will back defender up) Then if a call has to be made either way the coaches know what you have done.

I always tell the thrower that it's a spot throw-in. I also warn the defender not to break the plane. I consider this to be preventive officiating. I can't remember the last spot violation or plane warning I had. i think both are a result of a few words.

But I think this is different than the original topic. I don't tell the player that he can throw into the BC. I don't tell him he can't throw into the goal. I don't tell him he can call TO if he can't pass the ball in.

IMO, those duties belong to the coach.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett If there is a spot throw-in, however, I just point to the spot and don't say anything. Sometimes I have a player ask if they can run (usually this is if the spot is on the endline under the opponents basket). For whatever reason, I usually reply, "You'll have to ask your coach." I say it matter-of-factly, not sarcastically.

Isn't it easier to just say "no"?

On the topic of players asking questions, am I the only
one this happens to? As L administering the first FT,
holding out 2 fingers, or 1 & 1, or 1 finger, say loudly
"Two shots (or 1, or 1 & 1), hold your positions (or let
it hit, or on the release)". Then as you back out of the
lane, some bright bulb will ask "Hey ref, how many shots?"

In reply to everyone who says you should tell when this or that is the situation and the player asks you, I have to say that I must draw the line somewhere on coaching the players as to the rules. I can't tell them "all the time", and I can't tell them "none of the time".

I have chosen to be consistent and only inform on certain points. I don't want to get in a situation where a player violates and a coach complains to me that I told something to the other team to help them not violate in a different situation but I didn't tell his team. The more I can minimize the possibility of giving a coach the opportunity to complain, the more I am performing preventative officiating.

Besides, coaches perceive they have enough reasons to complain without me adding any. Notice I said <i>perceive </i>because most of the time coaches live in Fantasyland (with apologies to the Disney corporation).

Hmmmm,

Giblethead in Fantasyland!!!

Sounds like a box office smash hit to me! ;)

.....starring Bobby Knight as Coach Horatio Giblethead and Rasheed Wallace as the NBA Director of Fines.

Rarely do I disagree with you Mark, but I really can't believe that you are saying this.

If a kid comes out of a time-out and asks if he can run the baseline on a throw-in and your response is for him to ask his coach, how is that really possible? Should he yell across the court? Call another time-out??

By replying, "No, it's a spot throw-in." or something similar you take care of the situation within 1-2 seconds.

Telling a player whether they are allowed to run the baseline or not on a throw-in is NOT coaching - it is officiating. We tell players how many free-throws we are going to shoot, etc. We tell players what they did when they commited a foul or violation ("push", "walk", etc.)

Our main job out there on the court is communication, so we should communicate as effectively as possible to make the game run smoothly. Statements such as "You'll have to ask your coach." in response to a simple question which you know the correct answer to do not fall under the category of effective communication, IMHO.

Brad,

How do you feel about the original post? Would you answer a kid that asked if he could throw the ball into the BC? Is there a difference in the two situations?

Tony

To me, the situations are similar. When a player or coach has a legitimate rules question I believe that it is our job to give them an answer. Obviously there is a time and place for this, but if the question and answer are simple, why not simply respond?

I would have responded with a simple "Yes" and play would have moved forward from that point. No technicals. No ejections. No turmoil.

"Try it and find out." is a totally unacceptable remark. "You'll have to ask your coach." is not nearly as offensive, but is certainly not helpful.

Let common sense prevail.

If you were pulled over for a traffic violation and you asked the cop, "Is driving without a front license plate tag illegal?" What sort of responce would you like to hear:

A) "Try it and find out."
B) "You'll have to read your driver's manual / consult with your driving instructor."
C) "Yes, it is in the state of Texas."

I know I'm feeble, but....
 

Brad, can I say that I wholeheartedly agree. Referees are there to enforce the rules of basketball, but also to make sure that the players (and spectators) enjoy the game. If explaining a rule to a player can be done in a split second, then surely it is the professional thing to do.

Mark, IMHO your partner has done a great disservice to all referees, and someone needs to have a serious chat to him about his (or her) game management technique. A referees' coach that I once had said to me that <i>"before doing or saying anything, always consider if it will make the situation better or worse. If the answer is worse, then there must be a better option."</i> I have found that this adage works in basically every situation I have some up against. Clearly in this case, the referee's comments would only ever make the situation worse. In fact, you can hardly blame the player for getting a bit hot under the collar, the referee grossly inflamed the situation.

Having said all of that, I am <b>only</b> a FEEBLE referee, and from Australia to boot....so really, what do I know? ;)

Brad - I don't think your analogy holds up here. In your scenario, you already have been pulled over for the violation. I think a better analogy would be if you just walked up to a cop on the beat (do they do that anymore?) and asked him that type of question. He probably would give you an answer instead of telling you that (in some manner) it's not his job to tell you, only to cite you if you do something illegal.

Now, apparently having weakened my own position, let me back pedal by saying that we must make players aware that their coaches have a bigger job than just teaching X's oand O's. I feel it is a coach's responsibility to tell an inbounder coming out of a timeout that they can run the baseline or not. After all, if he doesn't communicate that, how can he design an inbound play?

As for the point of how a player can physically ask the coach that from across the floor - two points: first, I hear players and coaches yell at each other across the floor all the time, and second, maybe we should rephrase our answer to say something like, "You should have asked your coach if you don't know." Then we're more in a "teaching" mode, because we are teaching the player to ask his coach from now on.

I agree with Brad on this one. Why would you purposely piss off a player and then their coach when they find out what you said. I think we need to be professional and just answer the question since we are the "rule experts". Just a thought...

I guess I have to go back to the reasoning of where are you going to draw the line on answering these kinds of questions from players. Should you answer every inquiry as to whether or not it would be a violation? The best example of this is if a player has picked up a dribble and asks you if they can dribble again.

Although I agree there are some times we should provide information before the fact, our main job is still to call the game, not coach.

As a wise ref once said, "I don't foul, I don't violate. I just point it out to the scorer when it happens."

I think that I may just laugh instead of responding if this even happens to me! :)

For me, I guess it boils down to this: I will answer legitimate questions from players and coaches. If more than a 1-2 second answer is required, I'll tell them to ask me during a time-out/halftime/etc.

NO, you're not the only
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett On the topic of players asking questions, am I the only one this happens to? As L administering the first FT, holding out 2 fingers, or 1 & 1, or 1 finger, say loudly "Two shots (or 1, or 1 & 1), hold your positions (or let it hit, or on the release)". Then as you back out of the lane, some bright bulb will ask "Hey ref, how many shots?"

And I thought I was the one and only Tigger (apologies to Disneyland again). That happens to me all the time. Another one that BktBallRef mentioned he has not seen in a while is the plane violation. I don't have enough fingers & toes to count the times I have called that. Of course being of the female gender I get many girls games and you can call it all night on freshman girls. What I find humorous is that EVERY TIME I give the inbounder the ball I run my hand up and down the plane, look at the defender and inbounder (even though it doesn't apply to the inbounder), and I say "stay straight up, do not come across" Then two seconds later the defense throws her arms across, then I give a verbal warning to the team (recorded in the sorebook), hand the ball back to the inbounder and one second later...GUESS WHAT???? defense does it again. Now I believe I might be wrong in issuing a T for delay of game this time but I do it anyway because if they are silly enough to do the opposite of what you just told them not to do then they are surely not going to know the rule on T's.
Correct me if I'm wrong....I'm just thinking that they actually have to make contact with the ball or player, but on the other hand each time they cross the line I have to tweet and that's just a waste of time.

throw-in plane : the warning
 

Stripes130,
At some levels I may quietly warn 3 times before I make it official on a defenders throw-in plane violation, because when I record the warning, I am locking myself in for the rest of the game.
If I do see a potential (<i>borderline, 6-8 inches (i.e.hands, but no wrist)</i>) violation, then I judge as to whether the thrower is being handi-capped by the defnders actions. (A narrow sideline may easily magnify any disadvantage to the thrower.)
I really don't want to make the warning, or the subsequent "T" call, unless it is very BIG and everyone in the gym can see it, because I don't like the penalty either.
Try, if you will, applying the advantage/disadvantage principle and you may find this an easier rule with which to live.
mick