I though I had seen it all - Page 2

Ref-X · #16 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA

That makes it tough on the officials to do their job. They'll be the first to sue you if someone gets hurt due to a questionable call....Can't speak for you, but I wouldn't do it if I had those kinds of restraints on me.....Your reputation is on the line...

Unfortunately many of the summer and spring leagues are like this. I don’t work that many leagues like this. this is the only one. This is the first time there has been any kind of issue.

deecee · #17 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 03:22pm

mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

BktBallRef · #18 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules.

Then it's not a fight as far as officials are concerned.

BktBallRef · #19 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, I admit I need a long weekend, but I'm confused - where's the line being drawn? Is it because the fists are being thrown between teammates? Or, is it because it's halftime? It still happened while the officials were on the floor, so isn't that still within the officials' jurisdiction? If the exact same scenario was happening between two opponents, would you let that go as well? It just seems like a no-brainer; both kids are ejected. Since the coach came up and said they were already gone, and this is a spring game, I wouldn't thought twice about anything else. During the regular season, I would still make sure it was marked in the book that they were ejected for fighting, so there is no doubt later on.

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

M&M Guy · #20 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee

mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't surprise me, but are you sure that it's in the book that a fight is between two opponents, rather than just between two players? However, I'm not sure I would bring in the issue that it had no effect on the game. What if a fight broke out between two bench-warmers, one from each team? I wouldn't let that go because it "doesn't have an effect on the game".

But it just doesn't seem right to me that a full-fledged fist fight can break out, and we can do nothing about it because it's just between teammates. So, if the coach decides he's going to be old-school and let them fight it out, then decide he's going to put the kid that "wins" in the game because he feels that kid showed his toughness...and we can do nothing?

M&M Guy · #21 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

I guess I've never seen this happen, and I hope I never will. I guess I've tried to pay close enough attention to the issues of fighting, such as who's fighting, who was a player and who left the bench, the number of players from each team so to determine offsetting penalties, etc. But I obviously didn't look close enough at the actual definition of a "fight".

But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

I guess this means I'll have to break out the books and start studying again before camps...

Dan_ref · #22 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, at least for the ncaa rules this is just incorrect

4-23. Fighting
Art. 1. Fighting is an attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet, or a combative action by one or more players, a coach or other team personnel.

Jurassic Referee · #23 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Personally, I'd say that NFHS rules warrant flagrant technical fouls to each player, under rule 10-3-7 or 10-4-1. I'd also say that their head coach should have been charged with 2 indirect technical fouls as per rule 10-4-1 and case book play 10.4.1SitB. Note the last sentence of that case book play; it says that "If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified". I don't know what could be more flagrant during a game than a "knock-down drag-out fist fight", especially a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" that happened on the court, not in the dressing room.

deecee · #24 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:20pm

a fight by benchwarmers on two opposing teams is a fight by nfhs rules and must be dealt with accordingly. a fight by two players on the same team is honestly a coaches headache and adding a T to that will just add fuel to the fire.

Jurassic Referee · #25 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

M, you don't have to call it fighting. You can call it an an flagrant "unsporting act" by each player under rules 10-3-7 or 10-4-1.

Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place ON the court.

Dribble · #26 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:36pm

Rule 10-4-9 states, "be charged with fighting" and doesn't specify if it's between opponents or teammates, but the penalty is a flagrant foul. Thus, it's an automatic ejection. I know rule 4-18 talks about the act being against an opponent, but if you were challenged on the rule, then you could just show 10-4-9 and be correct. As if the coaches would know where else to look in the rulebook!

I think this is an intuitive situation. A fight is a fight regardless of who is involved. It's clearly unsporting and needs to be dealt with by the OFFICIALS and not simply the coach.

M&M Guy · #27 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

M, you don't have to call it fighting. You can call it an an flagrant "unsporting act" by each player under rules 10-3-7 or 10-4-1.

Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place ON the court.

Ok, I like that approach. I guess I would still have to be careful as to the exact characterization of the penalty, due to issues of suspensions as a result of a "fight" vs. just your typical garden-variety flagrant unsporting act. I would hate to just stand there and only be a judge ("Looks like the goofy ref scored 10-8 in favor of the tall kid this round...")

Jurassic Referee · #28 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I guess I would still have to be careful as to the exact characterization of the penalty, due to issues of suspensions as a result of a "fight" vs. just your typical garden-variety flagrant unsporting act.

Naw, no need to be careful imo. That case book play sez all team members are bench personnel during an intermission. Rule 10-4-1 sez that bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. I really don't know how anybody can say that a knock-down drag-out fist fight out on the court isn't a flagrant unsporting act. Just follow the rules- 2 flagrant technical fouls under 10-4-1 and 2 indirect T's to the head coach. Start the next half with 4 FT's followed by a throw-in for the T's, and also charge that team with 2 fouls towards the bonus in that half. The arrow doesn't change. Your butt is covered under the rules. Write it up after the game and let whoever is responsible for that league deal with any further discipline.

BktBallRef · #29 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 06:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Looking back over the thread....for some reason, i don't find where I said that.

Penalize it however you want to, I'm sure you can find some rule to justify it. But by rule, it's not a fight.

Raymond · #30 (**permalink**) Fri May 26, 2006, 07:50pm

Well, here's another possibility. If there was a fist fight I'm sure there was some major league cursing going on. Hit them with flagrant T's for the MF and IDGAF bombs that were dropped.

NFHS 4-19-4...A flagrant foul ...or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. ...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct.