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-   -   Elbow - with video! (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/26546-elbow-video.html)

jkjenning Mon May 15, 2006 11:42am

Elbow - with video!
 
Ok, in keeping with my goal to use more video this summer, this is video of an elbow called during a game I taped (HS boys, JV trying to make V next year):

http://safaripass.com/elbow.AVI

I thought this was a good call, as the offensive player pushes the defender away with his elbow [pesky defender]. I think that especially with some of the elbows in the NBA playoffs being highlighted, and lauded, that HS players will think a bit more about how to use the elbow in 'legally acceptable' ways. This player was projecting obvious bewilderment about the call, but it will give him something to think about.

If you believe attaching the video with the thread did not help in this case, please let me know. The real goal of filming this summer is to find plays that are taped from different angles [we had two cameras at this game] and find some good examples of how positioning put the official in the right position to make a call. Ideally, we can have a DVD for training purposes on which commentary is provided by a trainer. I know that learners/studiers (depth-first, as described by Back In The Saddle) like me would benefit.

zebraman Mon May 15, 2006 11:51am

Good call. No raised fist before the P/C signal though (mechanics). :D The official's signals are so fast that I didn't even see the hand behind the head the first time I watched it. Might be that the player didn't even know what the ref called which was why he was bewildered.

Z

REFVA Mon May 15, 2006 12:05pm

Quote:

No raised fist before the P/C signal though (mechanics). The official's signals are so fast that I didn't even see the hand behind the head the first time I watched it.
right call, poor mechanics. Give it to your assignor. He could use this as a training video..

Jimgolf Mon May 15, 2006 01:57pm

This is a foul. When I saw the thread title, I was expecting to see someone get called for throwing an elbow, but without contacting anyone.

Jurassic Referee Mon May 15, 2006 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
right call, poor mechanics. Give it to your assignor. He could use this as a training video..

And as an assignor I would say "During a summer league game? Who gives a sh!t about mechanics as long as he got the call right". :)

He was in position and made the right call. Hell....that's good enough for me.

REFVA Mon May 15, 2006 02:16pm

Quote:

"During a summer league game? Who gives a sh!t about mechanics as long as he got the call right".
And why use it for summer league only. Why can't he use it during HS season? Is that all you expect, is the right call?

Jurassic Referee Mon May 15, 2006 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
And why use it for summer league only. Why can't he use it during HS season? Is that all you expect, is the right call?

I gave you my opinion as an assignor. We have enough problems getting warm bodies out for some of these off-season games without going all-anal on the people too. It just ain't a biggie imo.

REFVA Mon May 15, 2006 02:30pm

Quote:

During a summer league game? Who gives a sh!t about mechanics as long as he got the call right".
And Again I ask why use it for summer league only. why not carry that video into regular season. I Got your point "warm body". Take it to next step. Teach him what he can do to improve.. During regular season you may have a NFHS official observing the game. Don't you wish you would have used the video.

Jurassic Referee Mon May 15, 2006 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
And Again I ask why use it for summer league only. why not carry that video into regular season. I Got your point "warm body". Take it to next step. Teach him what he can do to improve.. During regular season you may have a NFHS official observing the game. Don't you wish you would have used the video.

REFVA, I'm not saying that the official that made that call is nothing but a warm body. I'm saying he was in position and got the call right. He did his job. That's good enough for me during summer rec ball.

I worry more about officials getting the call right than looking pretty all the time. Again, jmo. Take it or leave it.

coachgbert Mon May 15, 2006 07:25pm

Just a question from a coach. Is the video in fast time? The official is counting (?) and it looks really fast to me until the foul.
thanks,
Coach GBert

Dribble Mon May 15, 2006 07:51pm

I agree with others with respect to improving your mechanics. Seems like the PC foul is rushed and you seem to do a foot shuffle as you call the foul. In these situations we're eager to make the correct call and you might be excited about seeing an elbow, but just compose yourself, raise your fist and slowly signal the PC. I know it's summer ball, but does your association allow you to "walk and talk" while you report your foul?

I also agree with Coach Gbert...your count seems very fast. I don't think the video is in fast time as the play develops at a normal speed.

I think it's fantastic that you're using your summer to improve your game with video. My best feedback is when I watch film of myself because I'm more critical of me than anyone else could be. I nitpick myself to perfection, but I still find it's hard to sometimes translate what you know cognitively to on-the-court. Perfect practice makes perfect!

RookieDude Mon May 15, 2006 08:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgbert
Just a question from a coach. Is the video in fast time? The official is counting (?) and it looks really fast to me until the foul.
thanks,
Coach GBert

Heck...since we're dogging ol' jennings on his mechanics...how bout' the "walkin' n talkin'" he's doing? ;)

Actually, I'm with JR, jennings looks pretty crisp (for summer league)...and he made a great call with no hesitation...IMO.

Also...it looks like this official has confidence in what he is calling and a good court presence.

Rich Mon May 15, 2006 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I gave you my opinion as an assignor. We have enough problems getting warm bodies out for some of these off-season games without going all-anal on the people too. It just ain't a biggie imo.

JR, I'd take it one step further -- those mechanics would be absolutely fine in any varsity game in my area, too. Crisp, clean, decisive.

And nit-picking the reporting in summer ball? I can't believe the OP got as close to the table as he did. Step out, report, no switch. When I worked rec ball, we'd do 3-5 games in a row.

The count was quick, though.

jkjenning Tue May 16, 2006 12:52am

Quote:

Orignally posted by RookieDude
jennings looks pretty crisp
No, I'm the one videotaping - it is really tough to get anyone to videotape games and I figure on making it a focus on mine this year as a division representative in our local chapter. I had one of my sons on the other camera. The official in the film has about seven years under his belt but is quite happy with working HS ball - a very hard worker!

No, we are discouraged from walking-and-reporting and that is one bad habit I have not developed. Maybe after I clean up other areas of my game I will pick up that one! :D
I had not picked up on the fact that his count was fast.

Also, if any of you make a habit of filming games and have suggestions on how to make the best film, I would appreciate it. The digital cameras are nice for a number of reasons, but I was a bit disappointed in the quality of the video. Once you project this stuff onto a big screen then the image is pixelated so badly it's tough to watch. Next game I'm going to play with the camera settings.

REFVA Tue May 16, 2006 07:18am

Quote:

it is really tough to get anyone to videotape games and I figure on making it a focus on mine this year as a division representative in our local chapter. I had one of my sons on the other camera. The official in the film has about seven years under his belt but is quite happy with working HS ball - a very hard worker!
Thanks JKJennings for explaining, So as I previously mentioned this is for training. So he is not videotaping for the fun of it. I go back to my previous post. Good training video. Get the mechanics down perfect. All I was saying, summer ball, rec ball is where you work on your mechanics. This is your training for regular season. Get into bad habits now, they are hard to break later. that is IMO. This is where you turn your warm body into a great official..

ChuckElias Tue May 16, 2006 08:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
All I was saying, summer ball, rec ball is where you work on your mechanics. This is your training for regular season. Get into bad habits now, they are hard to break later. that is IMO.

RefVA, I think that is a great attitude. It's the attitude I took when I first started officiating. I also think that you are exactly right about bad habits. If you allow them to develop as a young official, they are very hard to break later on when you want to advance.

Having said that, you have to see the other side of the coin. Many officials are already set in their ways. They aren't going to improve their mechanics, they aren't going to work on the little things.

Example from this past weekend. I worked with a very nice guy, a friend, a real quality member of his town. (He coaches basketball at the HS level and has coached younger kids for years.) He is a decent official, but I don't think he cares much about improving his HS schedule.

He has a bad habit on OOB calls to say who the ball went off of, instead of who's going to get the ball. In other words, very often he says, "Red!! You touched it. White ball!" I pointed this out to him after our set of games and he said (literally), "Yeah, I know. I don't care." Decent official, and very good person, but he's not going to move up. Should he be X'd off an assignor's list b/c of that? I don't think so.

If an assignor only used officials with your attitude and work ethic, he wouldn't have enough officials to cover all the Rec League, AAU, Men's League, HS off-season games that he assigns.

So in the winter, for varsity assignments where the W's and L's matter, the assignor can pick and choose the best and hardest-working officials. But in the summer, very often, the assignor just needs to get the games covered. It's not pretty, but it's a fact of basketball life.

zebraman Tue May 16, 2006 11:02am

I agree with Chuck. I have seen officials improve a whole lot in the summer. The ones who improve in the off-season are the ones who work hard on doing everything right, including mechanics.

I guess I'm not good enough to have two sets of mechanics (one rec league set and one school ball set). I use the summers to try to clean-up things that I thought looked a little sloppy when getting filmed during school games.

Z

JRutledge Tue May 16, 2006 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
Thanks JKJennings for explaining, So as I previously mentioned this is for training. So he is not videotaping for the fun of it. I go back to my previous post. Good training video. Get the mechanics down perfect. All I was saying, summer ball, rec ball is where you work on your mechanics. This is your training for regular season. Get into bad habits now, they are hard to break later. that is IMO. This is where you turn your warm body into a great official..

The problem with what you are saying is you assume that everyone is only working NF mechanics during the regular season. A lot of people that work during the summer are exposed to Pro rules and mechanics, NCAA mechanics and BTW, NF mechanics. Unless this was a camp environment, I would not think "training" would be the proper route.

I can speak mainly for me but I know it applies to others. I think it is overrated what we do during the summer as building bad habits. I know many officials that can do things during the summer they would not do during the regular season and you would never know it. If the use of mechanics created bad habits, then when I work 2 person or 1 person during the summer, I would be at a total lost when I work 3 person the entire regular season. It really is not that hard to overcome what you do in the summer.

Peace

Grail Tue May 16, 2006 02:41pm

Can't speak for anyone else, but summer is the best time to hone my skills, and to show my improvement to the coaches/assignors.

I have the chance to work a summer league for one of the Varisity coaches in the area. He schedules the games and the officials. Hopefully a good summer will lead him to call the assignor for the area and put in a good word for me. You can bet I'll be trying to follow all of the NFHS mechanics. Anything that can get me a leg up sounds like a pretty good idea.

JRutledge Tue May 16, 2006 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grail
Can't speak for anyone else, but summer is the best time to hone my skills, and to show my improvement to the coaches/assignors.

I have the chance to work a summer league for one of the Varisity coaches in the area. He schedules the games and the officials. Hopefully a good summer will lead him to call the assignor for the area and put in a good word for me. You can bet I'll be trying to follow all of the NFHS mechanics. Anything that can get me a leg up sounds like a pretty good idea.

Grail,

What you have said applies to many, many officials. Just like in other aspects of life, life is not fair. What a newer official has to do and what a long time established veteran has to do is another story all together. We are all not held to the same standards. I think what many here have tried to convey is not everyone is trying to “work on things” as it relates to mechanics. I am just getting to the point where most of the coaches know who I am or if they do not know, they quickly find out. I have even had some very tense moments during the summer and then they see me working their game in the regular season. I have worked with guys that know everyone whether they are an AD, fan, coaches and players. No one is worried if those guys held their arm up perfectly or used a full hand to call an out of bounds call.

Peace

zebraman Tue May 16, 2006 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grail
Can't speak for anyone else, but summer is the best time to hone my skills, and to show my improvement to the coaches/assignors.

I have the chance to work a summer league for one of the Varisity coaches in the area. He schedules the games and the officials. Hopefully a good summer will lead him to call the assignor for the area and put in a good word for me. You can bet I'll be trying to follow all of the NFHS mechanics. Anything that can get me a leg up sounds like a pretty good idea.

I don't need to show anything to coaches or assignors around here. They all know me from experience.

However, I still use the summer to improve. I work on mechanics, positioning, communication....everything I can think of. When I get to state, I need every advantage I can get to compete against our state's best.

Doing everything right, even in the off months will not hurt you. If you have practiced perfection until it has become a habit, then your mechanics (and other facets) won't fall to pieces when the heat gets turned up.

Z

Rich Tue May 16, 2006 03:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebraman
I don't need to show anything to coaches or assignors around here. They all know me from experience.

However, I still use the summer to improve. I work on mechanics, positioning, communication....everything I can think of. When I get to state, I need every advantage I can get to compete against our state's best.

Doing everything right, even in the off months will not hurt you. If you have practiced perfection until it has become a habit, then your mechanics (and other facets) won't fall to pieces when the heat gets turned up.

Z


I agree, and if I worked basketball in the summer, I'd be working to do just what you said.

What I said earlier, though, is the reality everywhere I lived. You'd get offered 5 games or none at all. So you have to decide whether to go all out for 5 games or cut some corners. I don't do this stuff anymore -- summer's baseball season for me. Fall's football season.


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