rolling the ball in the backcourt
 

I just got back from a 5th and 6th grade game and saw this curious thing. There's about 15 seconds left in the game and team A is inbounding from the baseline in their backcourt. They try to save time and roll the ball in the backcourt so the clock will not start. Anyway, the coach calls a timeout while the ball is rolling and the referee grants him the timeout and ball at the point the coach wanted the time out (at just before halfcourt) but before any of the boys have touched/picked up the ball. This can't be the right call can it?

Nope, the team had to have player contol of the ball inbounds ( holding or dribbling the ball) before a time-out request should have been granted. The official made the wrong call. Once he did blow his whistle though, he still does have to grant the time-out request, whether it was wrongly made or not.

And once he does this, he has an inadvertant whistle during a throw-in. So the ball is put back in play at the point of interruption which is that team's throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

Coach A or any A player has the right to a timeout in this case.

Coach B, as JR & Chuck said, does not.

That can't be true.
Team A is inbounding, so per the other posters team A cannot call a timeout until they take possession of the ball [same as if a pass is in the air].
Team B cannot call a timeout once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower and certainly not until the ball becomes dead.

DOH!

Sorry. My first mistake this week.

relief!!
 

Ah - rather you than me!! :)
I was wondering what fault would lie in my post... whew!

Question since I am nowhere near a rulebook right now.

In FED since there is no team control during a throw-in would we be going to the AP arrow? Does the NFHS rulebook address inadvertant whistles during a throw-in???

Rule 4-36-2(b)- "Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a <b>throw-in</b> when the stoppage occurred <b>during</b> this activity or if a team is entitled to such".

Chuck had it right.

Now, if a player hadda touched the throw-in and you then had an IW before player control was established, then you would have to go to the AP.....and probably also have had to dump the team A coach if B has the arrow. :)

JR gave you the rule reference. The reason that you might not remember it immediately is that it was a new rule last year and probably didn't get used very often. When they added the "point of interruption" rule, they included inadvertant whistles among the times you use the POI.

Realistically, I'd probably give the ball to team A, but I want to throw this other rule reference out there for discussion.

I agree with BadNewsRef in that the throw-in should be resumed by the alternating possession arrow. Part c of the same rule that JR quoted (4-36-2c) says, "An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved."

When I read that rule I am led to believe that the play does not involve an infraction because to me that's either a violation or a foul and not an inadvertent whistle.

Thoughts?!?

...team A was in control, so POI would not apply - there was just no player control.
Were you implying that perhaps because of no player control, then the POI would be correct?

Realistically, you'd deliberately give the ball to the <b>wrong</b> team for a throw-in? Oh my......:rolleyes:

Thoughts?

How can you say the above when R4-36-1 says "method of resuming play due to an <b>official's accidental whistle</b>"? The "accidental whistle" occured <b>DURING</b> a throw-in. You've got a very definitive ruling to use right out of the rule book in R4-36-2(b), and you want to say it's not applicable.

Lah me.....

You're correct if you're playing under NCAA rules, but under NFHS, there is no TEAM control in a throw-in situation until the ball is controlled by a player.

I think you should post the entire rule reference of 4-36 with all articles for everyone. You're taking parts of it here and there to make it applicable to the scenario to justify your argument.

I don't have an electronic version of the rulebook, so I can't cut-and-paste it for you. But JR is not taking parts "here and there". He is giving you the applicable article. 4-36-2b clearly states that when the stoppage (including an inadvertant whistle, see 4-36-1) occurs during a throw-in that play is resumed with that throw-in. Yes, even tho there is no team control.

If the stoppage occurs when there is no team control, and it's NOT during a throw-in (or FT) or when either team is entitled to a throw-in, THEN you go to the arrow.

Thoughts? Yeah. You're wrong. And you've already been given the rule reference.

4-36-2(b)
Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

The IW occurs during the throw-in, as the throw-in has not ended because the ball has not been touched inbounds. Since the throw-in is the POI, that's how the game is restarted. The rule doesn't require a violation or a foul.

Team A was not in team control. Regarding a throwin, team control is established when a player on the floor establishes player control. Player control is established when a player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Hmmm, I see your point. My twisted mind was thinking this: the throw-in ends when the ball touches the court... but I see now that the count is the only thing that ends at that point (4-42-4)... the throw-in actually ends once the ball has been touched by an inbounds player.

Ok, thanks Mark. I'll have to reread this thread later and make sure I am 'walking away' with all my facts straight. It was making sense to me that once the throw-in ended, team control must begin - and that is right except that the throw-in doesn't end simply because the ball contacts the floor.

OK, since I believe that Chuck and JR are correct I'll post it:

SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10.
ART. 2…Play shall be resumed by:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.


Now you can see that by the structure of article 2 this is a step by step process. You first see if part a applies, if so you award the ball to that team. If not, you go to part b. If part b applies that team gets the ball for that type of restart, if not then go to part c, which is the AP arrow.

IOW the AP arrow is used as a last resort after all other possible ways of awarding possession are exhausted.

All right, I'll pick the nit here. The count ends when the ball is released by the thrower. Touching the court is irrelevant here.

Thank you, Snaqwells. I wish I had time to generate a "nit-picking" gif - ah, the imagery!!

This was a good thread to highlight the importance of thinking over the rules before some unique situation occurs requiring special rules knowledge! So, in this case we "stop the step-by-step process" at 4-36-2b and the AP arrow does not come into play since the throw-in was still in progress. If a player had touched the ball without controlling the ball then the AP arrow would be used (4-36-2c) because the throw-in was complete (4-42-5) but no team control had been established (4-12-2).

Correct. Now you've got it. :)