Should I have been the hard-***?
 

5th game in row this past Saturday, final games of a 3 day tourney. I get a new partner for this game, and I wish I hadn't. Just to set the scene:

• In pre-game he was so busy chatting with the player who was keeping score (the son of one of our local board members, coincidence?), that he will barely acknowledge my presence, let alone engage in any kind of pre-game. I have to ask him his name.
• Reacts to criticism from the crowd by talking back, several times. He offers people the opportunity to come do it better and even threatens to call the game.

After all this, during one timeout I'm holding the ball and he asks me for it so he can shoot around. I ask him quietly, "What, you don't think we've got enough problems already tonight?" He looks at me like he has no idea what I'm talking about. So I toss him the ball and walk away.

At the time I was mentally chanting Mick's mantra: Get in, get done, get out.

Today I'm wondering, as a matter of professionalism or just general principle, if I should have (a) kept the ball and walked away, and/or (b) gotten in this guy's grill about his behavior.

What would you have done? What if it were a regular season game, rather than a summer tourney?

Screw'em. Eat his arse out. He's got it coming.

Not your place to chew him out, but it is your place to tell the assignor of this particular event not to ever team you with person again. That would probably a better way to get your message across.

Should I have been the hard ***
 

Asking to not officiate with him again, is just pushing the problem on someone else and not dealing with him. remember when on the court you are a team. If he screws up, you both screw up. So deal with it right then and there. He'll see how much of an unprofessional person he is. Although you have to do it with professionalism.

Fred, didya ever think that BITS' assignor might not really want BITS to deal personally with the guy? The guy <b>is</b> the assignor's problem, not BITS'.

Problems like this are the assignor's problem imo. He has to know what's going on, and then it's up to him to deal with the guy. There's a good chance that the assignor may already know what's going on; most assignors aren't that disconnected from the people that they're using. The assignor may need this goofus as a body just to fill out game assignments in these summer AAU-type tournaments, but doesn't really have any plans at all to use him in any meaningful games.

I think that BITS probably handled it the best way for a summer situation. Get in, get done and get out. However, I think that the assignor should still get notified.

In a regular season game however, there's nowayinhell that he's gonna practise his shooting during TO's- I'd break his wrists first.

Ditto. Especially the underlined part.

Should I have been the hard ***
 

I agree with you guys. that the assignor should handle it, but given the fact that it is summer league I would still give a piece to think about ..

Fred, ask yourself this question: "If I start reaming this guy right now, will it make things any better?" Since the answer is probably "No", then why do it?

Now after the game, when you're out in the parking lot or in the hallway away from everyone else, then a quiet conversation about his professionalism and how it made things way harder than they had to be - that might be in order...but not giving him the ball, chewing him out in front of fans - that's not being a harda$$, that's just being an a$$hole...

This is what I stated earlier. doing it with professionalism. After the game is when I would ream him a new A$$hole...

And I thank you for you kind thoughts RockyRoad.

Ray,

You know that most assignors around here (for summer ball) are mostly concerned with getting the games covered. If a warm body will show up, they are ok. That being said, I would call the assignor and let him know what went on. If I were assigning, I'd want to know.

Why? So he can do the same thing with other officials, who don't have the 'nads to stand up to him? This obviously isn't the first time his stupidity has shown. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away accomplishes nothing.

On the floor, we're a team. If he's working with me and making us both look badly, you can bet your butt we're going to go somehwere private and have a discussion. He'll understand that I'm not going to put up with it. He's my problem when he's on the floor with me.

Should I have been the hard ***
 

BktBallRef, well said. He is making both of us look bad. When the game is over any comments will reflect "it's those ref's, not that ref"..

It was a summer league game; I would not give a rat's ***. I do not expect all the procedures to be followed during the summer when everything is so informal. I cannot think of a time where I had a "pre-game" with an official during the summer.

Unless the guy threaten a fan or cursed out a player, I would not contact the assignor at all. Once again it is summer league. If anything happen that was so bad, it is not like I will be necessarily working with this guy during the regular season.

If this was the regular season, I would likely say something to him or the assignor. I do not like to say things to an assignor unless I am asked directly about what took place by that assignor or events were reported to them with my knowledge.

Peace

Back in the Saddle,
I can understand your view point. I take the summer time to continue my transition from U2 to U1 (meaning working on my officiating). I would have asked him a question like. What part of officiating are you working on to improve during the summer? If the light bulb does not come on, I know then this is a warm body to fill games. My two cents

Really??? And you are assuming that he gives a rat's @$$ what his partner thinks? Based on the type of behavior he is already exhibiting I'm thinking he's really not too much concerned about what his partner thinks. It may just be me but I'm thinking that the assignor chewing him out or the assignor not giving him anymore games carries a lot more punch than "joe blow" referee partner jumping in his butt.

You say Now what are you going to do to enforce your stance with him? He might just tell you "thanks for your opinion but I'm fine with what I'm doing." (or maybe he'll just say "F*** off")." Now what do you do?

Like I said before, you have to decide if confronting him during the game is going to make things better or not...if not, why do it then? Wait and confront him later - as I think Tony already said also...

I have had summer league games where I've told my partner at halftime to either pull his head out and ref likes he's supposed to or else just leave and I will do the 2nd half myself...

Sticklers -- Lighten up Francis!
 

BITS, give me a break. This is a game outside of the NFHS/NCAA/NBA regular season/tournament and the 5th of a 5 game set for you. Most referees used to play the game they officiate because they can't get it out of their system. So from time to time they will grab a ball and start shooting. I doubt that you will find anyone here that hasn't done it at least once.

Being a harda$$ about this doesn't do anything to improve the game the official is going to call or make working with this person any better either. Telling the assignor is also a bit ridiculous, unless its a directive from them and they want to hear about it. If you must say something, then maybe something like, "we never know who is watching", or "I have an evaluator here, they can evaluate you too." That might be enough to get them to pull their head out.

The officiating community is small and some of my best best friends are officials. In time, you might need this official to be an advocate for you, and all that person will remember is what a jerk you were about some off season game that didn't matter or will ever be remembered by anyone.

I haven't. :shrug:

That is why you are the greatest official this forum has ever seen.

Now that was funny.
 

LOL!!!

Peace

Why does it matter if it is NFHS, NCAA, or NBA, you are getting paid for a service.
The shooting of the ball was the straw that broke the camels back.
The orginal poster also express the above. So it wasn't just shooting the ball around.

Some people take officiating seriously- all year round.

Some people (they aren't <b>really</b> officials imo) just don't care.

I'll take the official over the rec-league warrior. Every time. Again, jmo....

Hope all that practise improves your shot......:)

I haven't. But that's because it would a lot more humiliating than anything else I could do. I can barely ref, and I definitely CAN'T play!!

That's why I don't shoot FT's
 

The crowd (summer or not) has enough to mock me about without seeing me miss free throws. In addition to being generally unprofessional, why give them more ammunition?

As expected, an assumption has been made. If it matters, I save all my shots for the driveway with my kids. I subscribe to the idea that you never know who is watching our games, sometimes assignors have a way of just showing up for no particular reason other than to look for new talent.

The official in question was said to have not been paying any real attention to his partner, it happens. There are times when we see people, in this case, someone close to a Board member, and he chose to speak to them. Alot of us have done it, well except for JR and Chuck. He was also offering his job to some fanboys. I have read many posts on this forum that have said essentially the same thing. Maybe the official actually came to this website and put this message into practice. Maybe since it was one officials 5th game, a call was missed, and the partner was trying to stick up for his partner by saying if you can do it better, come in and give it a try.

Not sure why you want to make this personal, or why you need to be sarcastic. (That's usually my job.) You made a statement, and I gave you information. Either it's interesting to you or not. But you made an assumption (nobody on the forum could deny ever shooting around during a TO) and it was false. I just thought you should know. Not trying to make myself sound better than you. Just giving info.

I'm obviously NOT the greatest official this forum has ever seen. It took me 3 years to move from JV to the Varsity list for my college association. I washed out of my pro league after only one season. I've never done a state final. But the fact is that I've never shot around during a game. Take it for what it's worth. Maybe nothing. Again, I say. . . :shrug:

I doubt very seriously an official who carries himself in the manner described in the OP will be somebody you'll want or need as an advocate. It's best to choose your advocates very wisely.

I agree that confronting such a ref will probably not generate any positive results. Unless it is someone I am mentoring I don't see it as my place to try to correct or address another officials behavior directly.

But I see nothing wrong with apprising the assignor of the situation if you feel strongly enough that it is a problem that needs to be addressed. We all have the right to address to our bosses (so to speak) workplace environments that make us uncomfortable. The assignor might think it's no big deal or the assignor may address the issue or the assignor might take a few minutes one game to observe the situation for him/herself.

I'm an assignor. Have been for years. I know how my fellow assignors think and what they want and expect from their officials also. As an assignor, and as an official, I don't agree with you or any of your assumptions, and I've never met another assignor that would agree with you either. It's simply a matter of expecting at all times a certain standard of professional behavior from the people representing our association. Sometimes we have to put up with the goobers like the one described above simply because we need bodies. That doesn't mean that we don't want to know whatinthehell is going on or that we're gonna turn a blind eye on behavior that makes all of our officials look bad. Perception is reality in the fanboy's eyes.

However, my assumption also is that you personally will never understand anyway what I'm trying to say. So....keep doing what you do and forget it.

My belief is still to have a discussion with the other official at the moment. You never know maybe he will listen. I stated earlier, we are judged as a team. I want to leave that court knowing we worked as a team with as much professionalism as possible. JR you are correct, fanboys have enough to say about how we handle the game I don't need to give them anymore reason to come at us.

I do understand what you are saying, because the officials you put on the floor represent the assignor.

If you reread my posts, I didn't make any assumptions. I didn't advocate what the official was doing. I merely said it happens. I also said that I believe there is usually someone at a game, solely, to observe the officials, and I act accordingly. I am one of those officials that takes each game seriously. I even offered a suggestion as to how to handle the situation. What the official does with it is their business.

The game and actions of the official in question happened during the "off-season" when not all officials feel the same way. If the guy is just a warm body, then the assignor got what was needed out of him. If that is the case then why assign this official. It would be the assignors fault for not putting a more professional/responsible person on the floor. Officials are an extension of the assignor and if if the assignor chooses to put this type of official on the floor, the assignor should know who he employs.

Where I live, a lot of "off-season" games are assigned by people who are not assignors during the regular season. So it is not unusual for a "warm body" to be at these games. Sometimes the off-season are assigned by coaches, officials (who are not necessarily well respected), ADs or some AAU coach that hires who he knows. When you take these games, you cannot expect everyone is going to come to the game with the same level of professionalism or attitude about the game. Also these games are a cash cow for many officials and they are not concerned about all the things people here seemed to be worried about. This is why I personally would not say a word or let it upset me. I have been in enough situations during the off-season where you cannot be so uptight about what your partner does. Half the time I just want a warm body to work with so at the very least I do not have to run as much. My expectations at this time of year are just not that high.

Peace

I guess you are correct, But it's tough. When I put on the stripes, My focus is in calling a good game no great game with the utmost respect of all parties involved, wheather regular season, off season anytime. I respect that position. Ultimalty it's for the the players, and I'm being paid to do a great job. It they wanted someone to call a lousy game they wouldn't hire expereinced officials. they would take on the fanboys from the stands..

Knowing icallfouls personally (soory Jim, I know you wanted to keep that a secret so it didn't ruin your rep.!!) I can guarantee you that he would NOT act like this person in the OP, and that he takes officiating VERY seriously.

I still think that confronting the guy in the OP just isn't going to accomplish anything, and the comment that the OP'er made when the partner asked for the ball to shoot around just didn't serve any constructive purpose...wait until later and then let the guy know what he did that was unprofessional and how much it hurt the crew...

As far as the advocate business goes - I had a situation with a newer ref years ago who wanted to do a middle school double header wearing his baseball hat backwards, clowning around with the kids, etc...the guy was just out of college, was reffing for spending money, and didn't know any better. We had a chat after the games - took him out for a pop and we discussed professionalism and why it is so important in our hobby. 12 years later that guy was the President of our Association, a State rated official, etc...when some dumb-a$$ parents came to the board complaing that i was biased against their son's HS team, that guy was MY advocate and defended me fiercely...so don't assume that because he's screwing around now means he won't go anywhere in the future - be an idiot to him now and when the time comes, he won't have your back.

Even for the players it is the "off season." You do not any championships that hang on any banner for a win or a loss that takes place in the off-season. I never said to not give it your all or to put your best foot forward. It is just a laid back environment and I am not going to expect at every timeout my partner and I to stand on the opposite blocks. I have even worked "off-season" games with officials that I do not respect, but I still have to get through the game. The foul reporting is laid back, the coaching box rules are non-existed and definitely uniform rules are extremely laid back. I am not going get upset if my partner is not perfect for a couple of hours. It might be annoying, but there are worse things that can happen.

Peace

BITS, am I right to assume that this is a new(er) official since you didn't know his name? How long do you think he's reffed for?

Just as another person said, this individual might not have been exposed to professionalism before and not know what's expected.

If one of my partners asked for the ball in that situation I'd simply say quietly to him, "I don't think it's the right time to shoot the ball around."

After your original statement since he looked baffled I wouldn't resign, but I'd clarify it for him and say, "It's probably not professional to do that right now."

I always try to say it politely and without bite in my tone so my partner doesn't get defensive. Teaching opportunities aren't only for players and coaches, but for your partner(s) as well.

I work alot of offseason basketball and I think every assignor would want to know if someone was totally actin a fool. The person running that tournament is probably doing so to make money and the coaches/players/parents are his customers. If they are not happy, they won't be back for the next one. If the tournament director gets to many complaints about the officials, he'll look for someone else to assign his next tournament. IMO, those customers are looking for a competitive, well organized, well officiated tournament. We're an important part of that 3 legged stool.

Possibly, a well worded question during timeouts would keep him there talking officiating philosophies rather that shooting baskets or arguing with fanboy. Could also lead into converstions about areas of concern with him like what his thoughts are on coverage areas, rebounding action, etc.

I'm probably not rippin someone a new one in front of everyone unless I'm truly hoping to finish by myself.

Not to pile on a ref. I just wanted to emphisize what Chris just pointed out. Even in the summer time; players, referees, parents, coaches, etc... all want games to be called by good officials. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here with this audience, but it might effect how you guys work with partners in these summer games.

For example, my daughter played two weeks ago in an AAU regional tournament. There were fantastic refs for this tournament. Did they get every last call right? I doubt it (but I couldn't really point to a kicked call all weekend)...but they hustled, they had good mechanics, they paid attention, etc.... You don't always see this in summer ball or in youth basketball. I made sure to find the tournament director on Sunday and compliment the officials.

Last weekend we played in a tournament. On Sunday we played in a game that was horribly refed. Nothing against you guys, but these refs (one of the two in particular) were pathetic. There were awful calls (both ways) the whole game. At the end of the game, Team A up 2 with 10 seconds left. Team B has the ball, B1 has the ball on the wing standing still, not guarded close, not driving or dribbling, throws a pass back to the top of the key. The one ref calls a traveling call, that I swear no one in the building saw that way except him. She didn't switch pivot feet or take a dribble, I don't know for sure what he thinks he saw, and neither did anyone else. Her pivot foot didn't even come off the floor, I guess he thought she scooted her pivot foot, but I didn't see it, and I had a good angle.

I guess even if there was a scoot of a half inch that no one else saw, was there really an advantage gained? I guess I'll leave that question to you guys.

After the game Coach A said "I was trying to get them to call traveling the whole game, on some obvious ones, and then that guy whistles some phantom call at the end".

Before the game, the one ref was on the floor and we were waiting a few minutes for this other ref to show up. The ref who was already there was standing by the table, when he sees the other ref show up he says "I'd rather ref this game by myself then work with this clown." I know that goes against everything you guys believe with not selling out your partner and such...but might give you a clue as to this guy's competency level.

The kicker is, our club hosted this tournament. In essence we hired this guy (through an assigner). In the end in doesn't matter, it's just a game and in the long run it means squat. But I wish the assigner could have found more quality refs for the tourney, rather than some "warm bodies" as you guys put it.

I've been around here for a few months, and I hope you guys don't think I'm just ragging on some refs, because really that is not my style. I think anyone who does what you guys do and the level that most of you do it, is very special and really cares about kids. I keep my mouth shut "almost" all the time about the refs, but I feel comfortable venting in this environment.

I just have to keep in mind that even in the summer, everyone is trying to get better. I guess including the refs.

And before you ask, our team lost and my daughter was the one who traveled. We beat the team on Saturday by 19 and lost on Sunday by what ended up being 4 points in OT. But no matter what the refs did or didn't call, if our Center hits a three foot shot at the end of regulation we win the game. No sour grapes here. Just wishing more of you quality guys would work the summer games, rather than leaving it to the "warm bodies". Maybe there isn't enough quality refs to completely cover middle school age girls ball in the summer, given that there is plenty of competition for your services.

spring and summer basketball competes with many sports. Soccer, Baseball, and most of the time the same official that does basketball also does the other sports.

As for the comment that the other offical made,

There is an official code of ethics. if he said that loud enough for you to hear, he isn't foolwing the code. If he had any comment about his partner he should have kep it to himself.

Rocky, while I completely understand and agree with your points that you should not be an idiot to others and that people change for the better, I would hope and think his decision to defend you "fiercely" was based upon your abilities and integrity as a ref today, and not whether or not you were an a-hole to him 12 years ago.

Griz, it also has a lot to do with supply & demand, vacations, personal schedules, family, full-time jobs, etc, etc. Speaking for myself, from mid-November thru February basketball is a high priority and I adjust a lot my life around my game schedule. But March through mid-November I put things back in the proper perspective and I take my games based almost solely on my personal desire to work certain games and/or tournaments. Of course, I have off-season assignors who have earned more of my loyalty than others, so I will always help them out as much as possible. But there are times when an assignor will call and ask me to work a certain level of ball I will say 'no' just because I'd rather be doing something else that weekend.

Secondly, remember, in the off-season officials are looking to do things to advance their careers. And the higher an official gets on his/her personal ladder of success the least likely he/she will be available or willing to do certain levels of games.

Lastly, remember young and/or inexperienced officials need to get their feet wet and earn their wings (am I mixing metaphors) somewhere, and a lot times it's in those elementary and middle school-aged games where that occurs. You can't just throw brand new officials on a JV or Varsity court, their has to be a "minor league system" for them to learn and grow and make their mistake as referees.

Of course it was...But...had I been an a-hole to him years ago, would he have been willing to defend me? The old saying "what goes around, comes around" pops into my head here.

I know we're going off topic but...
 

I would hope so. The President of an association should be doing what is best for the association, not tending to a personal agenda. That's a problem I feel my association has, letting personality conflicts interfere with association business.

But I digress.

you with Southeastern? IMO most assosication operate that way. The 3 or 4 that are in my area work same way, good ole buy system..

As everyone has, I've had partners in rec leagues (i.e., any league or game that is not a school game...I've never worked AAU games) who were incompentent, unprofessional, or just simply a$$holes who I hated working with. My approach has always been to give it my best effort despite a lousy partner, get through the game, and get out. I make little-to-no-effort to talk with such a partner about anything and usually avoid them during any breaks. Like Rut said, it's a rec league and there are things about my game I can always work on regardless of my partner.

If I know and trust my assignor (and I have all but two), I'll ask them not to assign me with the guy in the future if at all possible. I've made such a request on a few occasions. But otherwise, I avoid getting into the assignor's business. When it comes down to it, I'm just an independent contractor working with an association of fellow officials to facilitate scheduling and opportunities to officiate and advance. In rec leagues, as in school games, I always give my best effort, work to improve some aspect of my game, and hopefully have some fun in the process. However, in rec games I'm not responsible for my partner (another independent contractor) and his peformance, unless he's creating an unsafe situation for the players...then I would take actions to protect the players and protect my own butt as well (fortunately that situation has never happened to me). Now in my 6th year of officiating, I look at rec leagues in large part as the price you have to pay to demonstrate loyalty to an assignor and get a good school schedule.

So, if my rec partner wants to be a d***, let him be a d***...I don't care.