"Honey Bunny"
 

I've been reading the thread on the use of the term "ladies" to refer to female players. I've been in the Air Force for the last 26 years living in various places in the US and Asia. I have 3 daughters who all played sports, both in school and in rec leagues. Everywhere they played...Ohio, Alaska, Mississippi, Colorado, Hawaii, Tennessee (and also in Florida where I officiated)...players, coaches, parents, and officials alike have referred to the girls on every team they played on as "ladies". To be honest, I think I was the only one who was ever uncomfortable with it. It may be the emphasis the Air Force puts on avoiding any terminology that could be construed as sexist, racist, etc, but I'm uncomfortable with calling women/girls "ladies" despite being raised in the South where it is easily and commonly used. I consciously try to never refer to players as anything unless I absolutely have to...I call them by their number and nothing else.

Marti Gasser was the women's basketball coach at the Air Force Academy in the 1980's-90's and she refered to her players, individually and collectively, as "Honey Bunny". To hear her shrilly screaming that in the middle of a game remains one of the funniest things I've ever experienced in sports. My then young daughters would act as ball girls for the team and I usually sat right behind the bench, so I heard it a lot and I think I laughed every time I heard her. The best, though, was once when she screamed at one of the officials over something (I don't recall what) and called him "Honey Bunny". All he could do was laugh.

So, feel free to call players "Honey Bunny" as an acceptable substitute for "ladies" in your next game, even if it's a boys game. :)

While I don't see ladies as degrading, it seems more appropriate in an environment of competitive athletics to stick with color-number. It can't get you in trouble.

I'm sure the site administrators will cringe a bit whenever the topic of that thread is remembered as a discussion on the use of the term ladies. :) Good of you to start a seperate thread!

I think the intent here is to make a differentiation between "boys" and "gentlemen" - and "girls" and "ladies". To me, using the latter in each appropriate case is telling them I expect a high level of manners and sportsmanship. I don't see anything sexist about it.

I've known lots of boys and men who weren't gentlemen, and lots of girls and women who weren't ladies. In fact, I married one once - and yes, it was a woman, not a man (not that there's anything wrong with that).

I can remember playing basketball as a freshmen in high school an official who would refer to the players as gentlemen. This official later became one of my officiating mentors and is in the OhioHSAA Officials Hall of Fame. Since I started officiating I have addressed male teams using the word gentlemen and female teams using the word ladies. It does not matter whether it is a jr. H.S. game or a college game. I believe it sets that tone that I expect everybody to conduct themselves as a lady or gentleman as the case may be and in a sportsmanlike manner at all times.

MTD, Sr.

I agree with MTD, Sr. Throughout my career, I have used the terms "ladies" and "gentlemen". I personally don't see anything wrong with these terms.

I don't have a problem with anyone calling my team "ladies", but I sometimes wonder if anyone is actually teaching our young women in sports what it means to be a "lady". Manners, respect, honesty and sportsmanship seem to be on the lower end of the ladder regarding sports a lot of the time.

Coach Gbert

.


Coach,

It is not the responsibility of the official to teach these young ladies Manners, respect, honesty and sportsmanship. This should have taken place in their up bringing. we the official administer the rules of the sport/game. I have two high school daughters that play basketball. If see either one of them not be respectful to the officials, player, coaches and fans. I personnally bench them. As a parent..

Fred, I don't think the coach was suggesting that the officials are supposed to teach those things. He was merely commenting on the fact that some people are offended by their girls being called ladies, while not being bothered at all that they are not, in fact, ladies.

Yes, that's what I was trying to convey. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. :( I just came from a tournament where rudeness amongst players, parents, fans and coaches was rampant. I was lamenting the fact that it seems to be a fashion in AAU to NOT act like ladies, all in the name of "competition". I witnessed some ugly scenes, both on and off the court. While we were never part of it, I'm sorry my 8th grade young ladies had to see it.

Coach Gbert

Maybe we should go with X's and Y's? I'm a ladies and gentlemen person. I see no problem with it.

You mean, instead of "ladies and gentlemen", we say "XX's and XY's"? I'm offended!! :D

This will probably get deleted.
 

Once again, the reason the term "lady" or "act like a lady" offends someone because it puts women in a box of behavior that is seen as traditional or subservient to men. Now if you do not believe me, say that around some very educated women or women that have careers and you might see what I mean. Also this does not offend everyone nor should it. I just find it funny that a bunch of men want to talk about what is not offensive to anyone when the term is not about them or their role in society. Also this point is made to educate those that might be confronted with someone that gets upset about this issue. You have the right to do whatever you like, but if you are an official that is seen as "offensive" and continue to use those terms, you might have to deal with some consequences you are not willing to deal with. That is why the person that raised this issue said that he avoids the term all together. This also plays differently in different parts of the country and with people different social economic status. I cannot behave the same way in Naperville as I would when I am on the Westside of Chicago. Not all language is going to be seen as appropriate or offensive to everyone nor will you have to deal with the same consequences for using certain language in different places.

Peace

honey bunney
 

Sorry for miss-reading your thoughts. thanks for the clearification.

As for AAU tournament, it's getting ugly. The rudness by the Coaches, Fans and of course it trickles right down to the players. They seem to see the adults do and get away with it, so why not us kids? I actually did a tournament in NO Va a month ago and had a parent ejected from the gymnasium for mis conduct. I know we need to have our focus on the game and not the stands, but this gentleman( I'm being kind) was so loud and out of control with his language. I stopped the game cold, alert security to have him removed. Believe it or not He was waiting for me to walk out of the gym to confront me on it. This is why we lack the respect of the players. It come from the parents down....

I did...I asked my wife and sister-in-law...wife has her Master's Degree and is a teacher (that would be a career) and sis-in-law has her Doctorate and is a VP of Admissions and Records at a Division II University in Seattle (that would be a career also)...they both thought that was one of the stupidest things they had ever heard...they both said "ladies" is a term of respect and shows gentelmanly behavior from the man...

Actually what he asked was "Would either of you ladies kindly get up off your cute little bottom and get me a friggin' beer?!"

...and?

What happened?

I did respond as a "lady" since I am one (at least I hope that's generally accepted by most that know me). I also am educated (master's degree), hold a full time professional position and coach young women on how to play basketball and behave in society as both women and players. I am not offended by the term lady, but then I grew up with parental orders to "act like a lady", "sit like a lady", "behave like a lady", etc. There is no excuse for the behavior of out of control players, fans and coaches. This past weekend I noted players on opposing teams that made comments to me as I coached my players. They made comments to the officials and to the fans in the stands. We also had our very first intentional foul called on an opposing team when she knocked my airborn shooter into the wall. Parents of the player that committed the foul were outraged that he would stop play to lecture both teams on playing aggressive, but playing fair and so no one gets injured.

Even though it's not up to the officials to teach manners, respect and sportsmanship, this one did a nice job of reinforcing rules. We all know that manners and respect are just rules of conduct that are learned. Officiating and teaching all in one game, he was a very good official.

Coach Gbert

I think that there's people out there that make a career out of being offended. Aamof, they're not happy unless they can find a reason to be offended.

'Nuff said.

I have had this conversation with my Mom who is a PhD in Sociology (retiring after 30 years at one University in June) who attended the University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin at Madison (Masters Degree) and got her undergrad at FAMU (Newsweek called the best University in the country). She also for years has taught classes like “Gender Roles” and “The Black Family” and these issues are discussed an written about in much greater detail. Also as part of her job she has sat on the board of many organizations that are in her field that deal with Sociology and other teaching organizations that involved people from all over the country and at some of the most prestigious Universities in the country. This background has exposed me to attending lectures, conferences or just talking to people that have expertise in the role of Gender in America and how things have chanced with expectations, language, social roles and sexuality concerns over the last 50 to 60 years alone. This is not the first time I have ever had a conversation with someone about this issue or read about this and many issues of gender and social-economic status. This is why I gave the explanation in the first place.

Once again we are not going to resolve this issue on a discussion board or any forum like this. Just thought there needed to be some balance to this discussion as what why things are the way they are. I personally do not care either way what you say or how you say it to the people in your life. Just know that someone that you might not know might have issues with the term and this might be unexpected if put your head in the sand.

Peace

honey bunny
 

Like most of you we had a group of officials doing various games. when we all got done we walked out as a group and some of the veteran officials warned him that he best leave or we would call the police have place a complaint and possibly having him arrested. he did leave and nothing happened. I would have explained more if it had gotten out of control.

Wow, maybe you were at my game! One of the dad's on the opposing team went crackers and pretty much the same thing happened after the game.

Coach Gbert

Sounds like your AAU administrators up that way need to tighten things up. I'm down in Southeastern VA and I have noticed a considerable improvement in coaches, players, and fans behavior this spring. It's almost as if the local AAU management set forth some sort of POE's for the teams. Of course it probably helps that our local AAU boss is Boo Williams, so edicts coming down from him carry considerable weight.

honey bunny
 

Are you located in Northern Virginia? Although this is a common act, I'm not surprised if it were else where..

No, Cleveland area of Ohio. Lots of that goes on here too. Seems to happen at some game in almost every tournament we enter. (EEK, after writing that it makes it sound like it either follows me or I am a jinx!)

honey bunny
 

It's not you, no jinx, it's all over..

yes he is a class act. He does not stand for any nonsense.

By the way, do you know Renaldo Ponce and Stan Trader. they are on national staff of officials.

Can't said that I do. If they are local officials they must be Southside guys (Norfolk, VA Beach).

I took an unscientific poll on another site I frequent. I phrased the question thus "Do you consider the term "ladies" to be condensending or feel it implies a subservient position?" The options I gave in the poll were;

1) Yes...I am offended you even typed the term.
2) No, but I can see where others would feel that way.
3) Who, in their right mind, would think that way about that term?

I also asked them, if they had no objection, to supply gender, race and location (Eastern US, South, Midwest, Western US)

I had 84 responses (40 women, 44 men). Of those 84, 80 provided their race (55 caucasian, 22 African-American, 2 Native American, 1 Asian). Most of those who responded were from the South or Midwest...4 from Eastern US, 5 from Western US.

Of the three possible answers...84 selected #3!

Obviously, they could have lied about their feeling and demographic information.

As for the information obtained...put it in the JSYK...NTYK category.

Believe that Stan Trader is still in the northern VA area. At one time he was a member of my association, but not sure that he still is.

I could see how a single, random person within a significantly large population could truly believe that we still live in 15th century Europe, that she is actually a Lady and feel genuinely oppressed. She probably gets so down about it that she goes home and has some peasants tortured just to cheer herself up. :D

While I generally try to see things from both points of view, even if I don't accept one or both as valid, this one is just silly. I agree, JR, you have to be looking for a way to be offended in this case. And frankly, if I were looking for a way to be offended, I'd feel pretty lame about picking this one. If I couldn't do any better, I'd hang my head in shame.

As officials, we are authority figures. As such, our credibility, in large part, depends on treating everyone the same. Therefore, IMO, it is incumbent we don't do or say anything that may offend anyone, even if we do it innocently. Why do we stay calm and rational when dealing with an angry coach, an irate parent, or a petulant player? Because we have to always be in control and not ever be seen as playing favorites. EVER! But if we refer to players as "ladies" or "gentlemen", we may be doing just that, even if unconsciously or inadvertantly.

I love the poll Larry S did...84 out of 84 answers thought the issue was silly. But the 85th responder may very well be the one who is genuinely offended by the term "ladies". And if so, then odds are that #85 will be be a player/coach/parent in my next game and bring me grief when I unwittingly use the term "ladies". When someone is zealous about something, even something so seemingly innocuous as the term "ladies", and you offend their sense of righteousness, then you will never regain your moral authority in their eyes, to include the authority to officiate their game. Pretty sad when you think about it. Therefore, I do my best to avoid any terminology that may be construed as offensive and keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. Just good common sense.

And I liked what a couple other people said about officials setting the tenor of good sportsmanship, civility, and personal responsibility...we should and usually do. But I think we do it with our demeanor, sense of fair play, control of our emotions, and passion for the game we love. I don't have to call men/boys "gentlemen" or women/girls "ladies" to accomplish that.

One guy's opinions....

What about the players/coaches that might be offended by good sportsmanship, civility and personal responsibility? Aren't you worried about offending them also?:confused:

Btw, I personally find the term <b>"guy"</b> very offensive.

Me too! I'd prefer to be called "Stud" or "Stallion".

If I come across #85 and they are a player or a coach in a game I officiate then I would apologize for offending them and move on. If after my apology their sense of righteousness is still offended beyond repair that's something I can't control. However my authority as an official in that particular game still stands.

I've been offended many a time by people in a positions of authority (retired after 22 years of Air Force service). The fact that someone says something offensive to my personal senses did not usurp that person's power or authority.

That's fine with me, Honey Bunny. :D

Now now, calm down ladies, calm down.

I don't mind Honey Bunny as long as it comes from the right source. I'm sure JR is a handsome man, but he's not the right source for me.

He called me a "man"!:eek:

Mummy, make the bad person of indiscriminate sex quit it.:mad:

Rut:

With all due respect to your mother, saying that referring to a female, no matter what her age, as a lady is being derogatory to the female is policitally correct horse manure. Conducting oneself on the playing fields or in the work place as a gentleman or a lady has nothing to do with putting a person down, it has to do with displaying good sportsmanship and good manners, other words, acting like civilized human beings. Today's society at all levels, talk radio and politics, are good examples where good manners are sorely missing.

MTD, Sr.

We have a local dj oa Portland radio station morning show who calls every woman caller "Honey" or "darling"...they had one woman call in and complain that he was being sexist, so they did a 4 hour call-in one morning and had hundreds of women call in and the only one who complained about it was the original caller. Turns out she is a Professor at Oregon State University in the Gender Studies Program (whatever that is)...seems maybe those academia people are a little out of touch with reality...

This discussion is not about my mother or her opinion. The point I was making was to suggest that there are people that are have studied these things as their living (last time I checked I have not read anyone that studies in the field of Gender and or issues of race).

I also did not just suggest that this was something that people are to be offended by; I said that this is something that suggests a role and a way of conduct based on the use of the word. Usually in the terms of calling a gender a "lady" or a "gentleman" on its own in the context of a basketball game would not be offensive to me personally or anyone I know. But the term is not just about a game.

I also find it funny that this issue cannot be raised, but when it deals with race or challenging other aspects of life (that have been discussed on this board), then that is out of line. Then raising this issue is all about "political correctness" and people just finding ways to be offended. I look at this situation like this. If this is horse manure, so is all the posts, claims and ways people here find ways to be offended. You PM'd me over something that offended you. Why is this situation OK Mark and the use of a term so out of line?

It makes me think that the composition and the background of the people who are not offended have something to do with how you view this issue. I live my life to try to not offend people and not be a stubborn *** to tell others they should not feel that way because I am not personally affected.

Peace

According to my son, the correct word of address for all players, coaches, officials and spectators, regardless of any gender, ethnic or other considerations, is "yo". :)

Tell your son that it's probably a good idea to say that only <b>once</b> when addressing an official. Any player that looks at me and says <b>yo-yo</b> is taking their chances.:D

If you treat everybody the same, you're going to be a pretty ineffective referee. Some players you want to win to your side, because they can solve your problems. Some players you just let do their thing, because they're the journeymen who get the job done. Some players you need to actively "handle," because they're your game disruptors. You've got two coaches, and since no two people are alike, you're going to have to handle them each differently. If you're in a crew of three, you may even need to handle your crew members differently.

Case in point: In one of my Saturday games I had a kid who kept popping off to me. So I got in his grill about it. Then I hear a man in the stands hollering about how I have to handle this kid the same way I'd handle every other kid. Bull****. This kid was my game disruptor and I had to handle him differently or I will not have done my job.
Again, bull****. I'm there to do a job. That job involves making judgements about and exerting influence over others without undue respect to their feelings and sensitivities. Some people are going to be unhappy about what I do, no matter what I do. That goes with the territory. And while I absolutely need to be professional, and part of professionalism is not deliberately seeking to offend, I am under no obligation to watch my every word or walk on eggshells because little Johnny or Joanie (or Johnny/Joanie), or their parents, may choose to take offense at what I say or do. If I am made aware that I have offended somebody, I'll likely apologize. If I think they have a legitimate point, I will probably make a change. If I don't, I won't. In which case they can take their little crusade to change the world to the next potential convert. I don't live my life for them; they sure-as-hell ain't living their life for me.

And on the subject of authority, my authority comes from the fact that I've been hired by somebody with more authority to wear the stripes. Unlike important institutions like governments, my authority doesn't derive from the people I'm refereeing. I do not have to win their popular support. I do not have to pander to their whims. I do not have to be politically correct to win their vote. I have the whistle. I do not need to be liked, but I do have to be respected. And the surest way to lose respect is to try to conform to other people's whims.

And while I'm on a roll here, just let me say one last thing:

Another person's offense, real or pretended, at my words or actions is based on that person's perception that I have not embraced or respected their value system and/or view of the world. But by the same token, they have not embraced or respected my value system and/or view of the world. So while they clamour for my conformance to their value system, they refuse to give me the same courtesy. Political correctness is inherently a one-way street, and those who most demand other's respect seem least willing to give it.

Amen, BITS, amen.....

Well said.

[QUOTE=Back In The Saddle]
Case in point: In one of my Saturday games I had a kid who kept popping off to me. So I got in his grill about it.

Back in the Saddle, . A kid was popping off and you got in his grill. I am left to believe whatever was said did not warrant a T. However, it warranted you to get in his grill as you stated. Clear something up for me here

How close did you get to the kid grill?

Did you maintain a distance between four to seven feet?

Because, I find it unbelieveable that someone of your stature, will take issue with a kid in this manner and get in a kid grill.

The kid popping off at the mouth could have been handle differently then you getting in his face.

[quote=truerookie]Ah yes, the devilish details.

No, what was said was not deserving of a T. But after the second time it happened, early in the game, it appeared that it was going to be a continual problem. In my experience, those kinds of problems only escalate. It is the A in ABS technical foul.

The background: this is one of those meaningless summer tourneys where they don't keep player fouls, they shoot one-for-whatever and we were specifically advised to not give out T's except in very deserving situations because they were unlikely to be effective. So, it being the final day of the tourney, I had little hope that the fear of a T would carry any weight.

Distance: the "getting in the grill" occurred while we were in transition once, and while I was at lead and he was in the key once. Both times at distances of several feet. No physical contact, no proximity that would add an intimidation factor. I was, however, suitably gruff and curt. So perhaps "got in his grill" was overstating the physical nature of the confrontation, but is pretty accurate for the verbal and attitude aspects of it.

Could I have handled it differently? Sure. There are an endless number of ways I could have handled it. Some may be more effective, most would not. Based on the situation (an obvious game disruptor, popping off repeatedly, from early in the game), I chose a method I have had success with in the past. It gets the point across, addresses the offender directly, doesn't punish the team or player, leaves room to escalate in a controlled manner if the behavior doesn't cease. In this case the behavior ceased, and life was good.

Rut:

If you try not to offend people then you are bowing to the pressure of the political correctness police. With regard to the socialogy academics who "study" these things, my advice to them is to get a life and find a real job. This country has its share of problems, but we do not need to be told that it is insulting to address a person in a civilized manner and treat them with respect.

MTD, Sr.

I do not believe in Political Correctness. I do believe have a right to define what offends them and why. I also feel that it is not my place to tell them why they are offended when terms or comments have nothing to do with me. And if someone says something that is considered offensive, you have to be prepared for the consequences or the reaction. I like to inform people when they might offend someone so that they will not be caught off-guard when someone confronts them or slaps them across the face.

I also find it funny that some here want to talk about this is silly, but if someone says the right thing to them, all hell breaks loose and those comments are "out of line." Do not let someone talk about the war, Iraq or talk about race and all of a sudden the sh!t hits the fan. I told someone to “go back to Iraq” and you would have thought I talked about their Mother in the worst way. I did not see you coming to my defense and claiming that was PC run amok when I make those comments.

I think people pull the PC card when we talk about something that does not offend them. The minute something does offend them, then those comments are out of line. Mark, you are at the forefront of that hypocrisy. You have gone around calling people “scabs” but then not want to pull out the PC card when it relates to this issue. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have it both ways.

Peace

I think this statement is much too generalized. I try not to offend people. I almost never offend someone on purpose. Sometimes it's just a matter of being considerate, rather than being intimidated by what is "supposed" to be correct. But I also try just as hard not to be offended.

If I think that a person is being unreasonably oversensitive, then I may say that we just have to agree to disagree and I'm sorry you're offended. If I knew someone who was genuinely offended at being called a lady, I would not say it around them. But I would also probably try to discuss it with them and convince them that there's no reason to be offended.

1) Me too, shortazz.

2) OK.....go ahead and convince me that there's no reason for me to be offended if you called me a "lady".


Sorry, Chuck, but for the life of me, I just can't take this thread seriously.

The thread, as a whole, has become pretty silly, I agree. But as wrong as I think it to be offended by "lady", I think it's just as wrong to go too far the other way, as I think Mark did.

BITS

Great post! I mean that and agree with everything you say...but consider this, you're talking about dealing with behavior, which we have to deal with, while I'm talking about dealing with persons. It's on old axiom of leadership that when behavior is unacceptable, you address/deal with/fix the behavior, you don't judge the person engaged in the behavior. By treating all persons the same, you can focus on addressing behavior.

Is that being PC? I don't think so. I'm not afraid of offending people and therefore walk on eggshells, and I certainly don't try to to make people embrace my values at the expense of theirs...I just consciously try to avoid saying potentially explosive/threatening/offensive things to people that I don't know--i.e., players/coaches/parents/administrators/etc--but that I may have authority over. Do I occasionally offend people despite my precautions? Of course I do, but I deal with it and don't punish myself with angst.

Is this a silly thread as some people have said? Of course a discussion on the merits of the word "ladies" can be beat to death and become silly. But this isn't about just that word. Words mean things, which sounds obvious, but they can and do mean different things to different people. And people often react to different stimuli--in this case words--emotionally and irrationally. Put even sane, rational people in an emotional athletic arena, and you never know how they may react.

A couple years ago I was deployed to Al Udeid Air Base in the Qatar desert. The 'Deid has a very good gym and a good intramural program for the troops deployed there. As such, I officiated the intramural b-ball games while I was there. The 'Deid is not a particularly happy place, though it's not that bad either, but as you can imagine tempers can run short in such an environment. During one of the games I called, one of the players, a medical doctor assigned to the hospital there, was losing control so I told the captain of his team, another doctor, that we needed to work together to keep him from doing anything "stupid". The captain went and talked to the guy...and remember, he's a medical professional...and he went ballistic because I called him "stupid". I never did, but that's not what he heard. His perception of the situation was more real than the actual reality of the situation.

Moral of the story: I should have been more careful in my word choices to avoid such a confrontation. If I deal rationally, logically, carefully with behavior, I can more likely avoid an ugly human response. If I treat every person the same, I can keep the playing field much more level and the focus on the game where it belongs, not on differing values.

Thanks for listening to my long-winded response.

I agree; this thread is getting way too long. I believe in treating all people with respect and civility and that includes addressing male and female athletes as gentlemen and ladies, and I do not give a hoot about what some sociologist thinks.

MTD, Sr.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. After reading this, I think we're pretty well on the same page. However, I will give some more thought to the distinction between behavior and people you talk about. That's probably a distiction that I could be clearer about in my own mind. For my part, I make gut-level decisions about how I'm going to deal with behavior, and try to anticipate what types of behavior I may have to deal with based on my perception of what type of person I am dealing with. Of course, I'm judging "type" of person based on behavior, but I have found the another old axiom to be pretty accurate: By their fruits ye shall know them.

I agree, of course, that each person should be treated equally as far as being treated fairly but firmly, respectfully, cordially, etc. But how to deal with behavior, especially in a situation like a game, is much more of a case-by-case basis. And a significant factor in deciding how to address the behavior is the person. And this is starting to sound rather like the first paragraph all over again :)

I feel your pain with the "stupid" incident. I think that word has probably bitten most of us at some time :) In similar situations I try to use the word "unfortunate" or "regrettable" now. Not only does it avoid using the word "stupid" but subtly reinforces there being a negative consequence associated with the behavior.