elbows to the face

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Chuck's point was that the rules do NOT allow you call a contact dead-ball technical foul unless the contact IS flagrant or intentional.
NFHS rule 4-19-5(c)- "A technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead".

Your supervisor/assignor/commisioner doesn't know the rules either.

My boss and I might not always see eye-to-eye on his assignment decisions but he definitely knows the rules. I said he agreed with the way I handled it, I didn't say anything about him saying I followed the letter of the rulebook. I wouldn't take the "T" back. A1's coach gave nothing more than a half-hearted objection about his player not hearing the whistle and the rest of the game was played lot cleaner than it was prior to the technical.

Within the confines of this forum I can admit that I didn't think the contact was intentional, but you can be sure if I had been questioned on the court directly, some sort of paraphrasing of rule 4-19-5 would have spilled from my mouth.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Probably...if, in my judgement, B4 knew the defender was there and did it on purpose, I'll call a PC foul...if not, I got nothing...

IF the defender does it on purpose how can you only have a personal? Why not an unsportsmanlike?

I rarley see elbows swinged but if I do I call this as personal fouls all times, unless, somebody is doing it on purpose (or perhaps for the second time after a warning) then it's an unsportsmanlike

Elbows swinging in somebodys face can't just be excused, having an elbow at that level is bad no matter what cause you risk hitting somebody, in college you have that excellent violation for swingin elbows, I can't use it scince FIBA don't have it but if an elbow makes contact it is almost evry time a foul, and if you do it on purpose, come on, an unsportsmanlike must be minimum, how can you not penalise an intentional elbow (or call it a personal), the risk for injuries must be high, anyway

elbows- PFoul
intentional elbow - Unsportsmanlike

having players throwing elbows around isn't good, so when I call a game I try to penelise it hard enough for players to stop doing it (besides, they hurt, I know from when I play myself )

[Adam]

That's why I love the violation call in NHFS, too. If I think he did it intentionally, I'm going to at least get him with the PC, if not the X. However, intent is not required for me. If the defender has position, and the ball handler's elbow enter's B1's vertical plane and hits him square on the face causing so much as a recoil, I've got PC.

[Stripes33]

Having played basketball at the high school and college level and now officiating I can honestly tell you guys that players don't throw elbows for no reason. There's always a message being sent when elbows are raised or thrown. Not to say that there aren't inadvertent elbows but in my mind it's very infrequent. Players usually are trying to intimidate or just flat out hurt someone due to frustration. I will always penalize this activity as it has no place on the floor. By the way I've been on the receiving end twice and it wasn't much fun. 12 stitches over the eye and a tooth thru the lip.

[jkjenning]

Bryant's elbow to Bell occurred in Bell's space, as Bryant was leaping towards the defender to make a cross-court pass to get himself out of trouble (my recollection of the play). I wondered if a player like Bryant, who has a fair number of "incidental elbows", doesn't train himself to make certain moves with elbows extended where the normal motion would not be with any extension. I liked Snaqwells comment:

[if] the ball handler's elbow enter's B1's vertical plane and hits him square on the face causing so much as a recoil, I've got PC.

because then you cover the player who has become good at making the elbows appear incidental.

[Jimgolf]

While it is not legal to swing your elbows, it is legal to pivot with your elbow in a normal position, or in other words to swing your body with your elbows out.

If contact occurs, it is up to the official's judgment whether a foul call is warranted, and on whom.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

IF the defender does it on purpose how can you only have a personal? Why not an unsportsmanlike?

The discussion was about the offensive player pivoting with elbows out, not cocking his/her arm and throwing the elbow which is a different situation...

[Joel Poli]

See 05-06 NFHS rule 9 sec.13 art. 2

[lukealex]

A1 has the ball at top of key, B1 is closely guarding. For some unknown reason, A1 deliberately elbows B1 with significant contact to B1's head.

Would this bring an intentional? Has anyone called flagrant foul on an elbow? I haven't, but if this happened I may call the flagrant.

Opinions?

[ChuckElias]

Deliberate elbow to the head has to be an ejection in that sitch. Even in the NBA, this would be an "elbow foul" above the shoulders. Bye-bye!!!

[crazy voyager]

bye bye player and hello report writing

DQ (or flagrant if you speak ncaa) and a nice little report to write afterwards