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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
This just strikes me as dumb and overly PC. They're girls/women. It can't possibly be offensive to refer to them that way, when a respectful term is used. I call the guys "gentlemen" and the girls "ladies".
I'm with you on this one Chuck. When I address the players as a group I always say "Ladies" or "Gentlemen", that's whether it's 10 year-old kids or the roughest adult rec league. When trying to get the attention of an individual I simply address them by number and jersey color (ie: 13 Blue).

I don't see calling the collection of players "ladies" or "gentlemen" as anything that could be construed as negative.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
I have never, ever, ever in my whole life heard anything like that. Nobody that I've ever heard of has ever used "ladies" to indicate servitude. I agree that "lady" has a connotation of living UP to a certain standard (although not nearly as much today as in generations past), but it has never had a connotation of DOWN. Now, when JR mutters "wimmin", that's a different story.
Now you learned something. When you say "living up to a certain standard," that standard is seen as subservient. Usually when people say act like a lady they are not talking about being outspoken, having goals outside of being a wife and at the behest of men. I know many women that cannot stand that term and would let it be known they do not like that term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
I think it is a matter of PC-speak, and we'll simply have to disagree on that. But in any event, Juulie's advice is good. If you know ahead of time that a certain evaluator doesn't like certain things, then don't do/say them in front of that evaluator.
Not sure what this has to do with being PC. I think it has to do with how terms are used to keep people in a certain place (women in this case). You do not have to agree (nor do I expect you to) but that is something you might be confronted by someone when using the term. I am just trying to give you background. Now you know, it is up to you if you choose to use the term or not.

Now the term upset someone in a camp or in an officiating situation. Now you know it is not just me is aware of the history of how the term is perceived.

Peace
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Now you learned something. When you say "living up to a certain standard," that standard is seen as subservient.
This is simply false. When it originated in British society, "Lady" was a term of privilege, not servitude. Ladies employed servants, they weren't servants. Yes, women in general were held in lower regard than men, but that doesn't have anything to do with the term "lady".

Later on, even in American culture, "lady" did not connote servitude. It connoted "proper" (meaning, among other things, sexually proper) behavior. A lady didn't wear pants, for example, or sit astride a horse. It didn't have anything to do with demeaning somebody.

There is simply no case that I have ever heard for construing "lady" as connoting subservience.

Now you have learned something. Maybe. And since this has NOTHING to do with basketball, I will withdraw from the topic.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
It helps if you get some calls right, too. . .
How would you know?

  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 12:11pm
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The ONLY time I have heard anyone say anything about calling players "ladies" was from a coach at one of those all-star type team camps. Team was from Houston, and there was a pile-up going for a loose ball right in front of their bench. I blew the whistle, got in there and said loudly "Nice hustle ladies. Everyone come up cleanly now." The coach asked me to not call his players ladies - he said "I don't want them to play like ladies, so please don't call them that."

My response - "Coach, do yoy want them to call me 'Sir?'" When he said "yes" I told him "Then I will be just as respectful to them" and he agreed that was a good approach.

I have never heard any evaluator get on someone for being respectful to players...
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
How would you know?

Well, that's what I've heard. . .
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 12:25pm
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Don't know the history of the word "ladies" nor do I care. Just noting that I have known of some observers (and even some coaches) that don't like their refs using certain terms like ladies, gentlemen, etc. I don't find it offensive, but they do so I just avoid it.

Instead of figuring out what some find offensive, I have just gotten in the habit of referring to players as "players." If I need to talk to a particular player, I use their number. "Hey 24 white, blah, blah, blah." I can't imagine that I'll ever offend anyone with "player."

Rex-X said it was Women's JUCO he was trying out for so I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents.

I didn't mean to create a firestorm.

Z

Last edited by zebraman; Thu May 04, 2006 at 12:28pm.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 12:53pm
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This thread is now living proof that wimmin are nuthin' but trouble.

Told ya so.......
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 12:58pm
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Some advice

Are you going to Donnie Gray's camp in DC metro area?
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 01:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I didn't mean to create a firestorm.
You didn't create it. And I agree with you that it's probably "easier" simply to avoid using the word. I just don't like it as much, that's all.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 01:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
Are you going to Donnie Gray's camp in DC metro area?
No, Martin Novitch's camp in Jersey.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 01:15pm
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Please get back to offering advice to the future camper as he has requested.

Any posts in this thread going forward that attempt to rebut or address this social/race issue will be deleted.

Thanks for your cooperation. Contact me privately if we need to discuss further.

Practical Advice for the camper:

Since most here have mentioned what to do while on the court, I will address what to do off...

Remember that camp is like an interview so show up like it is one. Dress Proffesionally (not necessarily a suit, but nice shirt, slacks maybe a sport coat, dress shoes etc.) No shorts, athletic shirts, hats, sandals, flip flops etc. Always act professionally. Someone is always watching whether you are on the court or not. In other words carry yourself with confidence, don't use profanity, don't talk about other officials whether they are there or not (they don't like gossips)
Listen intently to what the observers are telling you and/or your fellow campers. Leave them alone while they are observing, and don't try to "cozy up to them" or Kiss butt. They see right through that.
Be punctual and have all your paperwork in order for registration. This shows that you are accountable, organized and "handle your business".
Here is another one, don't ask questions that you already know the answers to, to show how much you know. If you have a question, ask it concisely and let them answer, don't interject what you think the answer might be.

Lastly, go to camp with the idea to learn and get better and not necessarily with the sole purpose of getting hired. If you approach it that way, good things will happen.

Now you just have to do what the others said on the court and you should be golden!
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 01:17pm
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I understand the respect of calling female players ladies. I call the players ladies all the time. I am trying to be respectful, not degrading. To stir the pot, calling someone players can denote a negative image. Either way, I always try to be respectful to the players on the court.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 05:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
This thread is now living proof that wimmin are nuthin' but trouble.

Told ya so.......
Here's what I don't understand...why does *my* thoughtful, intelligent humorous post get deleted and why does THIS example of low-brow Neanderthal thought get to stay? Why?

Anyway...for the OP...one of the best officials I ever knew worked D2 women's ball along with HS ball. He never said "ladies" "guys" "fellas" "gentlemen" or "gals".

Always used the term "players". Why, I asked. Because, he said, you never know what might offend any of these @ssholes.

But don't take my word for it or any of the other so-called experts here. When you show up for camp ask the camp director what *he* prefers.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2006, 06:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Here's what I don't understand...why does *my* thoughtful, intelligent humorous post get deleted
Because while it was indeed a post, it was neither thoughtful nor intelligent nor humorous.

Well, that's what I heard. . .

Quote:
When you show up for camp ask the camp director what *he* prefers.
Or "she". Oops!
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