greater responsibility for the contact

[jkjenning]

Just mulling over sideline defensive pressure and Rule 4-7-c:
"There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

Trying to establish a "frame of mind" for judging contact near the sideline and it sounds as if so long as the defender is not pushing into the dribbler, but merely 'standing ground', then any contact - other than torso contact by the dribbler - should be judged incidental. This has stuck in my mind because an evaluator at camp, from across the court, criticized me for calling an OOBs on the dribbler rather than a push on the defender [who had the best look?]. I think so long as the defender is simply continuing legal guarding position, then the dribbler needs to find another path.

Does the defender necessarily need to keep moving in the same direction as the dribbler to avoid contact? I don't think so. If the defender is close enough to the sideline [within 3 feet] and the dribbler, while continuing down the sideline, bumps the defender and steps OOBs then how can you call a foul on the defender unless the bump was the result of the defender stepping into the dribbler?

[OHBBREF]

obviously the observer had the best look - because at camp you say yes sir/mame, and move on.
you might have made the greatest call in the world but if the observer said you blew it - you blew it.

[crazy voyager]

I still like the idea that the dribbler is like a driver. If you're driving your car, and somebody comes in your way, you don't run them over. You turn the wheel, the same principle applies, if somebody is in your way, you must find another way (as long as they have legal gaurding position offcourse)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

obviously the observer had the best look - because at camp you say yes sir/mame, and move on.
you might have made the greatest call in the world but if the observer said you blew it - you blew it.

Bull$hit. If that's the road you want to take because you want to work his conference, great. But the rule is what it is and the call is what it is. Take what he says with a grain of salt and know that you made the right call.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Bull$hit. If that's the road you want to take because you want to work his conference, great. But the rule is what it is and the call is what it is. Take what he says with a grain of salt and no that you made the right call.

Couldn't agree more... well..maybe I could.

[JRutledge]

When you attend a camp if the observer thinks you blew a call, you blew the call no matter what anyone says. You cannot argue debate or rationalize what an observer says in these kinds of situation. The reality is you might be right with your call but debating is not going to help you out. Just say OK and go back to doing what you did before. When the observer talks to others about your job this play might be what is talked about. Just use the situation as a learning experience but perception is often the reality when you attend camp.

Peace

[zebraman]

Camp evaluators are hired to give their opinions, even if the ref is in great position and the evaluators are sitting way up in the bleachers.

As campers, we just say "yes sir" and accept the input. If you agree with what they said, add it to your game. If you disagree, let it go.

Nobody is perfect, even evaluators. That being said, I've seen campers who disagree with about 80% of what they are told. Those kind of refs don't get very far and I wonder why they even bother going to camp.

Z

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

"There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

I've always wondered about this rule. Is it saying that even if the defender doesn't have LGP, if there is less than 3ft between defender and boundary line any body-to-body contact that would normally result in a block or push foul is excused???

Any interpretors want to weigh in on this one????

[BktBallRef]

No, it says the greater responsibility is on the dribbler. The defender can still be called for a push or block but he would have to be moving toward the dribbler and/or the sideline.

[jkjenning]

Thanks for the replies. There was no dispute from me during camp, just a nod and 'ready to move on to the next comment'. I really appreciated all the feedback that came to me from camp - now I need to work hard to make sure and improve in a few key areas.

Part of post-processing the camp experience is putting these comments 'in their right place'. I am always happy to improve my positioning and judgment on the court and don't want to stifle any evaluator from giving comments. The call, based - of course - on my description, seems to have been correct; at least, noone is disputing my understanding and application of the rule in what I have described. {let's see, should I tell them the defender hit the dribbler in the head with extended hands? ...nah! }

The replies focused on the fact that the criticism came from an evaluator, so as for comments I think I could make at camp, perhaps there could be a conversation like this:
Evaluator: "That OOBs should have been a bump!"
Me: "Ok, the on one the far sideline across from you?"
Evaluator: "Yes, the defender bumped the dribbler and caused the OOBs!"
Me: "Ok. On that play - given that I had a good look at what was taking place, do you think that something in my demeanor gave you less confidence in my call?"

...and then take what they have to say or 'leave it alone'. In other words, try to glean some comments about why they lost confidence in my ability to make the call given my better position on the play. I walked away from that first game a bit down on my ability to make the right call, and I think that was not beneficial. I think I attended camp a bit too willing to let someone mold 'my image of myself' as an official when, in this case, I should have been a bit more self-defensive in my thinking (while just as silent verbally). This evaluator didn't even fill out the camp form I handed to them, simply wrote down a few comments on a separate piece of paper. I think what I learned from this evaluator is that ignoring some comments is ok.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

"Ok. On that play - given that I had a good look at what was taking place, do you think that something in my demeanor gave you less confidence in my call?"

Personally, I wouldn't even pursue this far. He said you missed it, you didn't think so. Fine. I might ask a question, but not about the call. "Would better positioning have helped me get the right look?"

Other than something like that, I'd leave it alone.

[Raymond]

JK,

Since there seems nothing else good to talk about in the forum right now (I hate MLB more than most of the Forum members hate the NBA) I'm deciding to pursue this camp thing.

In what context did the evaluator criticize this particular call? Did he immediately point it out when you came over? Was it just part of his list of comments he had for you? Did he have any positive comments about your performance? Did he offer up any type of constructive criticism for this play or any other play that occurred? Did he seem like one of those guys who was just there to fulfill an obligation to his supervisor?

I haven't been to a plethora of camps but I've been enough to know when to take an observer's comments to heart and when to blow them off. You're gonna come across good observers and bad observers. Observers who enjoy helping make other officials better and observers who couldn't care less about you and would rather be on the golf course.

I came across a real a-hole observer in one camp. Really has me reticent about ever attending that camp again even though it's probably my most favorable opportunity to breaking into DIII ball.

[jkjenning]

Glad to benefit from a slow forum BadNewsRef
Let's see, your questions:
In what context did the evaluator criticize this particular call? after the game
Did he immediately point it out when you came over? that was one of the first comments
Was it just part of his list of comments he had for you? part of a small list
Did he have any positive comments about your performance? there was mention of one good call, but use my voice better [very valid, by the way]
Did he offer up any type of constructive criticism for this play or any other play that occurred? there were some constructive comments, but the main message was that bumps caused OOBs and bumps caused travels and two players colliding was incidental contact (I recalled calling a foul on activity after that contact)... lots of stuff to say 'poor judgment'
Did he seem like one of those guys who was just there to fulfill an obligation to his supervisor? I think probably not, but definitely there to show they knew the game; I would be inclined to see being an evaluator as something of a service you provide - but that's just me.

I listened with the premise that I should take everything to heart, so I left that first game thinking I must have made some pretty ignorant calls. Given that I'm just finishing my second year, it's hard to imagine any evaluator not having something critical to say, and I went to camp because I wanted an environment where people were expected to give constructive criticism.

So long as my understanding of the rule is correct, then I'm not going to second guess my call. I am going to approach camp a bit differently next time (this was my second camp). In this case, the evaluators also were commenting on the opening tipoff and how we responded as a crew but their recollection of the events did not match with what we recalled... maybe they were watching the game with a sort of distracted focus.

I think keeping my mouth shut is good advice, as is filtering what I hear - the challenge is building enough confidence in my own abilities as an official so that I can know what should be filtered out. I definitely have my work cut out for to improve posture, but I'm happy for the challenge!!

One of the evaluators happened to be a female, so maybe that means something for all of this. She worked closely with an official who was just beginning and made it known to everyone around the area [fans, coaches, players, fellow officials] that "this was just his second game" and kept referring to him as sweety and honey. I wonder how his post-processing of camp is going!

Given the rest of the comments I received from camp, I think posture, reporting and running mechanics and use of voice would go along way towards having a better experience with these evaluators. I think maybe there was a lack of objectivity - pre-judging what I did on the court by how I looked... those are all things for me to take responsibility for! Neither of the [two] evaluators were from our area, so this was the first time I recall seeing either one - maybe you tend to give more benefit of the doubt to those you have worked with.