When is a dribble a dribble?
 

I have a question. Is this a double dribble? Defensive player tips or bats a ball to the floor and then grabs it with two hands to start his momentum forward and then dribbles up the floor.

I've called this a double dribble based on my understanding of the dribble def. 4.15.1

Am I right? If not, what am I missing?

You have to determine if the player had control of the ball during that tip or bat. ex. If he used the tip to deflect the offensive player's pass and didn't have control, then he could then grab the ball with two hands and then start his dribble.

If you determine that the initial tip or bat constituted control of the ball, then you're correct in calling this a double dribble.

No, you're not right. He didn't have possession. He batted the ball. He then gain control of it and then legally dribbled. The same principle applies to an offensibe player who receives a pass, bats it, controls it and then dribbles.

See? judgment call! I think that normally one tap, like what you appear to describe, would not be called the start of a dribble, but a player who makes that tap and continues to dribble could easily have been said to have started the dribble with that same tap.

Two different situations. If he continues to dribble, then he establishes control. If he bats the ball and then catches it, he now establishes control and can dribble.

But you would agree that the longer the player has to tap the ball in order to gain control the more likely you are to consider it the start of a dribble? I do understand that a travel violation cannot be called until a player has control of the ball and that the start of a dribble also requires player control, but sometimes that is more of a judgment call than at other times, correct?

I called a double-dribble violation on a player who tapped the ball twice before grabbing the ball and then he started a dribble. The reason why it jumped out as me as a double dribble is that the initial taps were controlled enough to prevent opponents from getting the loose ball. Categorizing these kinds of taps as dribbles or not dribbles becomes harder for new officials, like myself, when the rules cover the throw by a player jumping OOBs as the start of a dribble - without an explicit reference in the rules to this type of toss being the start of a dribble, I would never have considered calling a violation on any player who came back on the court, grabbed the ball they had just so athletically saved, and then proceeded to dribble down the court.

By way of extending the OOBs save-scenario, I don't think you can categorically claim that one bat could never be considered a dribble. I do think that in the original post, the type of tap described would not be considered the start of a dribble, but maybe it could look different if we had actually been there? (yea, doubtful, but...)

You're making this entirely too difficult.

If there's any doubt whatsoever, you err on the side of NOT making the call.

Batting the ball away from opponents is no a dribble -- there's a specific statement to that effect in the rules book.

Are you thinking of Case 4.15.1? That's the closest I see at a first look. The key point stressed is the dribble does not begin until A1 has gained control. If a player has enough control to keep the ball away from defenders, then there certainly is enough control to consider it the start of a dribble, imo. Are you referring to a more specific statement?

4-15-4
NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Does that help you at all?

Also, look at 4-15-1:

A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

Again, if there's any doubt as to whether there is control or not, you err on the side of no control.

It sure does - thanks! I'm still amazed that saving the ball can be considered the start of a dribble, but I guess the key distinction there is that the player has firmly grasped the ball before flinging it back on court - in all other cases the ball has not been grasped, so whether or not the player has controlled the ball can be questionable.

It has nothing to do with grasping it. When a player palms the ball, does he graps i? No. Usually it comes to rest in the player's hand. When a player saves the ball, the ball will sometime come to rest in his hand. That's holding the ball, that's control.

Very helpful - thanks again.

Of course, "the meek shall inherit the earth", so they can afford to be pinched every once in awhile! :)

Don't watch movies, eh? :)

Player Control
 

Double dribble would only be considered a violation in this case had he established "control" of the ball. From your description, he didn't have control, therefore it shouldn't have been a violation.