I've heard this said by announcers, and it cropped up in the discussion about rules that are never called, but I need a clarification on this "lowering the shoulder" principle.

I assume they mean "lowering the shoulder and running into the defender is a charge", not "lowering the shoulder is a charge", even if contact is initiated by the defender, correct?

Is there anything about lowering the shoulder in a case book, or is this one of these things that gets passed on from person to person?

I don't think you'll find anything specifically addressing "lowering the shoulder" in the rule book or case book. There is nothing illegal about lowering the shoulder in and of itself. However, it's often done by an offensive player in control of the ball to clear space (I.E. displacement) and is a player control foul.

Z

P.S. Announcers seldom know the rules so they are generally not good sources for referees.

I was just surprised by WooPigSooie's posting in the other discussion where he said that he had been told in his rules meeting "that NO MATTER what the defender is doing (shuffling the feet to keep pace with the defender, etc), if the offensive player does an act (and they usually use the lowering the shoulder example) to create separation, it should be called an offesive foul."

The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct?

Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block.

Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block. [/B][/QUOTE]

I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category.

I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category. [/B][/QUOTE]

wwcfoa43 hit it on the head. I was taught and trained that if the offensive player uses an some kind of "overt" action that we don't need to legitimize LGP, it is an offensive fouls. Here are some examples of Overt actions, but are not limited to:

Leading with the foot on a drive
excessively extending the arm
wipe outs with the off arm

I on some rare occassions was going to call a block on a player and then right as i blow my whistle the offensive kid would do something overt and I would take the charge. Not often but I have done it before.

wwcfoa43 hit it on the head. I was taught and trained that if the offensive player uses an some kind of "overt" action that we don't need to legitimize LGP, it is an offensive fouls. Here are some examples of Overt actions, but are not limited to:

Leading with the foot on a drive
excessively extending the arm
wipe outs with the off arm

I on some rare occassions was going to call a block on a player and then right as i blow my whistle the offensive kid would do something overt and I would take the charge. Not often but I have done it before. [/B][/QUOTE]You and WWCFOA43 both need to go back and re-read what I wrote. I was talking about shoulder-to-torso contact <b>only</b>. O-N-L-Y!!!! I highlighted it above in red- again- for your viewing pleasure. As I stated in another thread, a push-off with a dribbler's arm has got nothing at all to do with LGP.

Maybe rather than displacement, you might want to look at this from an advantage/disadvantage position. If the offensive player lowers the shoulder and gains some separation (as stated earlier), it definitely needs to be called.

I read it fine. I was using the example of arm contact to illustrate a situation which we may wish to treat similarly.

As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP. One could argue that if the shoulder was not lowered that the defender would have more time to get into LGP. One could also argue that the danger to players of this action constitutes making it illegal independent of LGP.

As I said, <font color = red>depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP</font>.
[/B][/QUOTE]Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender <b>doesn't</b> have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call?

Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender <b>doesn't</b> have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a reference in the NCAA Appendix for women's, but can't find any references for men.

There is a reference in the NCAA Appendix for women's, but can't find any references for men. [/B][/QUOTE]I'm not aware of that particular reference. Could you post it please, or give me a cite that I can look up?

You guys are talking about displacement being the quantifying factor for calling a PC, which I dont agree with. 6'7 250 lb 5-man guarding a 5'10 160 lb guard on a fast break. Guard lowers the shoulder yet there is no displacement. We penalize the 6'7 guy for being an ox? That is essentially what I am getting out of this.....I'm gonna call it. The guard did a non-basketball movement in an ATTEMPT to gain an advantage. Tweet....PC foul

Well, some officials will rule the contact as being "incidental" if no displacement occurs. I'm usually one of those officials.

What you want to call though is completely up to you.

Since a defender is allowed to turn and brace himself for impending contact, why shouldn't an offensive player be allowed to lower his shoulder to brace for impending contact?

There's no rule against "attempting" to gain an advantage. Conversely, there's no rule allowing the advantage if the contact is accidental. "Intent" is irrelevant here.
If your 6'7" defender isn't moved, injured, or impeded, you don't have a foul. By rule, you shouldn't call this.
He's not being penalized for being an ox, because he wasn't disadvantaged. In fact, I'll bet the 5'10 guard will think twice about doing it again after he picks himself up off the floor a couple of times.

Nice thread
 

Thought I'd add this to the discussion. At the lowest ages I coach (about 9), we sometimes see on ball defense with an arm extended in front of and often contacting the dribbler. If these players are not being taught correct on ball defense by there coach, my feeling is a good Ref can accomplish the lesson with his whistle. Sometimes my small guard can't compete. Thw worst is basically an arm draped across the dribbler while running/sliding along side. More prevalent when defender is significantly taller. I've concluded that the reason some guards develop the early habit of getting the leading arm/hand up and pushing on the defender's extended arm is because the Refs don't call that draped arm a "reach" often enough, so the dribbler learns to protect him/her self.

Then I go watch the HS games, and if someone tries to defend on ball like I described above, "tweeet." But they let it go a lot in Jr High games. I tell my players to go right thru that arm extended in front of them.

We actually drill it. I use a small football blocking pad and use it with lay up lines so they get used to putting their shoulder into resistance off the dribble. We teach the dribbler to respect the defenders foot position, but if the def sticks an arm out in front of you and makes contact- lower the shoulder and go right thru the arm.

I know coaches who teach their players to put the shoulder into the center of the defenders chest in the same situation (legal guarding position not established). I don't teach that tactic, I think I can accomplish the same thing (level the defenders unfair advantage) just as well with my tactic and I'm less likely to pick up the PC call on my dribbler my way.

Re: Nice thread
 

Help me here, coach, as I obviously can't see the play. Where's the foul? Are you seeing hand checks not get called? The draped arm sounds like it might be a hold, but when you say "reach" I'm having a hard time picturing contact.

If you call that play an offensive foul, good luck making it out of there. Even the opposing fans would probably boo you. You are just blowing a game interrupting play where the offensive player created all the contact and in doing so he tried to gain an advantage(since we are throwing this word around everywhere) and did not accomplish gaining that advantage. This is a play on anywhere and everywhere. Like someone else said earlier, if you don't blow this, that kid is going to get up off the ground and think twice about doing it. Save the 5'10" kid a foul, and use some common sense application so you don't get yourself and your partners killed.

Re: Re: Nice thread
 

Coach, just for the record, you do realize that reaching isn't in and of itself a foul? There has to be illegal contact before there's any foul at all. If the defender is reaching and creates contact, then it should be called. If the defender is reaching and not affecting the play in any way, hey, no foul. That's why Snax is confused.

To add to what Juulie said, even if a player reaches and creates some contact, it might not be a foul. Most of this contact is incidental. Until that contact causes an advantage, it's legal.
Now, holding is quite another thing, so if that's what you're talking about....

Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender <b>doesn't</b> have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B][/QUOTE]
JR, there is only one that I can think of:

A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

For Jurassic Referee from earlier post
Appendix III Section 12 (Women's Legal Defense) c. If contact occurs by the dribbler moving forward at a faster pace
than the legal defender is retreating or if the dribbler drops her
lead shoulder or uses her forearm to push into the defender, a
player-control foul shall be called on the dribbler.

_ For Jurassic Referee from earlier post[/b]
Appendix III Section 12 (Women's Legal Defense) c. If contact occurs by the dribbler moving forward at a faster pace
than the <font color = red>legal defender</font> is retreating or if the dribbler drops her
lead shoulder or uses her forearm to push into the defender, a
player-control foul shall be called on the dribbler. [/B][/QUOTE]For BadNewsRef:

My question was "Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender <b><font color = red>DOESN'T</font></b> have LGP?

The answer you give above refers to a <b>"legal defender"</b>- i.e. a defender with LGP. I'm still waiting for a reference from you referring to an "illegal defender"- i.e. a defender who <b>doesn't</b> have LGP.

If your 6'7" defender isn't moved, injured, or impeded, you don't have a foul. By rule, you shouldn't call this.
-----
I thought the two golden rules were: 1)Protect the shooter, 2) Reward good defense. If the dribbler initiates the contact, why penalize the defense? Give the defense the ball because of the PC foul.

That's the closest I could find. That's the only reference in the entire NCAA rulebook that specifically addresses a ball-handler's use of the shoulder.

I don't have to reward good defense, the defense rewarded himself by not giving ground. He doesn't need me, because there was no advantage gained.

Well, the "closest you could find" isn't relevant at all to the statement I made. :)

I said "Usually, with shoulder contact to the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block". I'll stick with that one.

A dribbler lowering the shoulder into a defender <b>with</b> LGP is usually a PC foul under <b>all</b> rulesets. That NCAA Womens rules reference is no different than NFHS or NCAA Mens.

Just a comment from me on this, because Nevada is probably out doing what Nevada does and isn't available......I don't think that Nevada is allowed out in the sunlight anyway. He's supposed to stay in the crypt.

The reference that Nevada made was an an example where he thought there was a charge call with shoulder-to-torso contact on a player without LGP. The example that you cited does not involve shoulder to torso contact in any way. Apples and oranges iow, and not what we were discussing.

JR, there is only one that I can think of:

A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...




[/B][/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying Nevadaref, but I am not getting into paticulars with what is what. I am just blowing my whistle and taking the play the other way.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref

Quote:

Rule Refs to back this: 4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27. Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

That is not the case in either the NFHS nor NCAA rulebooks. NCAA specifically says that this scenario is a foul on B1.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BadNewsRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref Quote: Rule Refs to back this: 4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27. Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though. That is not the case in either the NFHS nor NCAA rulebooks. NCAA specifically says that this scenario is a foul on B1. NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

It's a foul on B1 under NCAA rules, as you stated. Under NFHS rules, it's not a foul unless the player on the floor tried to trip or block the offensive player. The language of the case play said "he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down." That case play was 10.6.1SitE in last year's case book.

But.....this particular play is still <b>not</b> relevant to the rules discussion we were having. It doesn't involve shoulder to torso contact in any way.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by BadNewsRef Quote: Originally posted by Nevadaref Quote: Rule Refs to back this: 4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27. Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though. That is not the case in either the NFHS nor NCAA rulebooks. NCAA specifically says that this scenario is a foul on B1. NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position. It's a foul on B1 under NCAA rules, as you stated. Under NFHS rules, it's not a foul unless the player on the floor tried to trip or block the offensive player. The language of the case play said "he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down." That case play was 10.6.1SitE in last year's case book. But.....this particular play is still <b>not</b> relevant to the rules discussion we were having. It doesn't involve shoulder to torso contact in any way.

JR, Thanks for finding that casebook play. I knew that it existed. I do have to wonder why it isn't included in this year's version though. What do you think about the rebounding play? Does it provide an adequate example for your parameters?
PS Back from the crypt otherwise known as Las Vegas night life, where I spent the opening weekend of the NCAA tourney. Hopefully, I wasn't observed by some of those NCAA people who were stationed there to monitor the gaming situation surrounding March Madness! ;)

BNR, Yes, I am aware that the college ruling on this play is different. It has even been discussed on this forum in the past. Since JR desired an example, and I know that he doesn't work NCAA ball, I referenced NFHS rules in my previous post. I never claimed that the NCAA rule was the same, however, you have unfortunately claimed that the NFHS ruling is what the NCAA follows. Perhaps your situation is just opposite from JR's and you only officiate at the NCAA level, and thus weren't aware of the HS rule.

1) What do you think about the rebounding play? Does it provide an adequate example for your parameters?

2) BNR, Yes, I am aware that the college ruling on this play is different.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Yeah, that rebounding play could involve shoulder to torso contact on a player without LGP. The rule doesn't specify the front of the torso or the back of the torso.The "trip over the player on the floor" play though is still completely irrelevent to the discussion.

2) The college ruling re: a player on the floor is different than the FED's, but, again, that ain't relevant to the discussion we're having. I'm still waiting for an to NCAA cite that states that shoulder-to-torso contact should be called differently than in the NFHS. Afaik, shoulder to torso contact is pretty much called the same way in all rulesets, with regards to LGP.



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:08 AM]

Nevadaref,
I work predominantly HS ball with a little JuCo. But I also work a couple Rec leagues that use NCAA rules. I couldn't find anything in this year's NFHS rulebook that referenced the particular situation about a defensive player lying on the floor and the offensive player tripping over him.

Agreed. I only cited the lying on the floor play to support that a player is entitled to a spot on the floor whether or not he has LGP.


Again I agree with ya.
I only know of one NCAAW rule which makes a difference here. That is the one about not being able to take a charge while standing under the basket unless the drive comes parallel with the end line. This could be viewed as not having LGP though.

Large players and displacement
 

I find it interesting that people have discussed the concept of a really big person just not being displaced. I had a player that played in a league that i officiated a large number of games in, and he constantly complained that he was getting fouled, and wasn't getting any calls. When I started watching, he was right - he was being hit, pushed, shoved, etc. But in most cases, almost no displacement occurred because he was tall and large.

Most people say not to call a foul, without displacement, and the rules support this. But is this fair to the larger players, who can get hit and pushed and if they are able to hold their ground, there would be no foul called? I'm not out looking to call fouls, but should the larger players be subject to more abuse simply because it is harder to displace them?

BTW, I wasn't able to find a lot of situations where I could call the fouls. Many times, i noticed the fouls after the game, looking at videos from it, but during the game, because there was no displacement, it was hard, if not impossible, to see the contact as a foul.