One other thing I would have included is the run-in with the player. When you are filling out a report I would list everything that occured, INCLUDING post game events even if you did not issue an T/ejection.

Re: Re: honestly
 

I'm going to give a maybe you're both right in this case but I really want to point something out. At the risk of a royal flaming I want to point out that, as distasteful as a howler coach may be, his/her ability to teach and coach is not necessarily mutually exclusive with these actions.

I will use the example of my original mentor whose lack of social depth and warmth, I'm convinced, is the only thing that kept him from being one of those quirky D! underdog coaches like Pete Carill or Dick Bennett. The guy was a respected genius (w/ some impressive mentors himself) who could be an absolute bear. He tended to get a long leash from officials (I guess because of his reputation) and he would sometimes look like he was about to pop a vein only to turn around and wink at someone in the crowd. He commanded player respect, some fear but a lot of awe. His game and clock management was second to none. Any players who lost focus or spoke to officials were reamed (to the point where I cringed sometimes). This guy was on top of games like no one I've ever seen and he was a howler to boot.

He never passed up a chance to exploit a rule to gain even a minor psychological advantage. One time we were playing a rival on the road and they were celebrating senior night. The opponent wanted an extra 10 minutes to honor seniors and their parents. Our coach cited some league rule that required 10 days prior notice and refused and everyone kind of laughed and thought he was joking. After 10 minutes of halftime, the opposing seniors were lined up with their parents and our coach demanded our team go out and warm up. The kids were horrified but he screamed, "warm up!" They dribbled out on the court. I can't remember the resolution because I was cringing in the corner, but I think coach pitched a fit and our team came off and senior night carried on.

Anyway, you can argue whatever negatives you want about this guy but he was teaching more basketball than anyone I have seen and he actually was teaching a lot about life. He was unconventional, rude, sometimes unprincipled sometimes generous as hell but his teams were prepared and everyone was mentally present. To this day I don't know exactly what he was doing or if he was a little crazy. I couldn't even tell you if I liked him or not. But I'll tell you he was the best damn coach I have ever seen and the kids who still have lunch with him 15 - 20 years later agree. He even has lunch with a kid from an opposing team who went on to win a state championship beating opponents by an average of nearly 30 points. He beat our team by an average of less than three and developed an unlikely respect for coach before moving on to play for Pete Carill at Princeton.

Disagree with coaches who talk to officials but don't totally dismiss the possibility that they may be coaching and teaching as well.

Long walk for short trip.

Re: Re: Re: honestly
 

At the risk of a royal flaming I want to point out that, as distasteful as a howler coach may be, his/her ability to teach and coach is not necessarily mutually exclusive with these actions.

Disagree with coaches who talk to officials but don't totally dismiss the possibility that they may be coaching and teaching as well.

[/B][/QUOTE]That's a complete pile of doo-doo. Whining at officials to try and get an unfair advantage has got absolutely <b>nothing</b> to do with coaching and teaching. You're simply trying to rationalize away unsporting behavior.

just a question, if the shoe fits, wear it.

But why is it alright for we officials to judge whether or not someone is a good coach but coaches get lit up in this forum if they criticize or pass judgement on a referee?

I've dealt with coaches who I've thought were total a-holes, but I don't feel that gives me some kind of special insight or expertise to determine whether or not they are an effective coach. Just b/c a coach b*tches and moans to officials all game doesn't mean he's not coaching and teaching his players. Those actions are not mutually exclusive. You can not evaluate a coach's interaction with his players based upon that coach's interactions with officials. We don't know what goes on in practices, in the huddle, in the locker room, in the classroom; we don't know the X's & O's that coach teaches.

Dealing with officials is just one part of a coach's job. Just b/c a coach may be lousy in that aspect of his job doesn't make him weak in the other aspects.

We now rejoin our regularly scheduled broadcast.....

I'm with you, Rita
 

Deecee,
Without having been there and heard/seen it, I'm giving Rita the benefit of the doubt. You certainly can't tell how it was said by seeing the words in type. If one of my children ask me, "Dad, why aren't we eating supper yet," they can do so in VERY different ways. One would warrant an answer. The other would warrant something else. So, I'm believing the T was warranted.

Maybe more junior high (and 6th grade) coaches should be getting ejected. I gave my share of warnings with the "that's enough, coach" phrase this year. I also gave two T's for a "You GOTTA call that!" type of statement that was loud and disrespectful. There was at least one other situation where I thought afterwords that I should have given a T to a coach and didn't.

I'm all for communicating with coaches, but I'm equally for the coaches acting respectfully. I've got no problem with coaches communicating with officials. I've got BIG problems with coaches being disrespectful.

I get it.

You think that we should give coaches the benefit of the doubt.

But, as per the Kentucky thread, you don't think that we should give a fellow official the benefit of the doubt.

If the shoe fits, wear it.....indeed. :rolleyes:

No, I'm saying "how are we qualified to judge the abililties of a coach?" That has nothing to do with benefit of the doubt. This forum takes a very harsh tone with coaches who criticize officials, yet everyday I read sermons in here from officials to coaches on what is or isn't good coaching.

As for the KY situation, I did give the benefit of the doubt to an official, the one named Montgomery. As I said previously, Bailey starts out in the negative side of the ledger for being in the locker room when he should not have been.

Yup...indeed....

I know exactly what you're saying.

all i said
 

was that the comment "What were you looking at? Come on!" doesnt sound T worthy - I know he had been jabbering but I have seen coaches that jabbered all game but they were valid questions and just because he was jabbering all game does not warrant a T. Especially if you or your partner have not at least told him once that he needs to pick his battle and to not complain about every call or no call. IMO thats just good game management.

Players and coaches both sometimes make good points about calls/nocalls -- just last night adult rec league player drives the lane and as soon as he picks up the ball gets fouled. Me and my partner blow the whistle but i quickly pull my hand down and thought the player was on the ground -- my partner thought he was shooting and one of the opposing player asks him "Looked like he was still on the ground?" to which my partner replied "No, he picked the ball up therefore he was shooting." The player now replies "What does just picking the ball up have to do with shooting if there is no motion started?" My partner replied with his same reply -- The player argued for about 3-5 more seconds and then I chimed in to him "Let it go and move on because allyou argue is not going to change anything." One of his teammates agreed and it was all over.

So once again after all my babbling all I said was that from the sounds of it I disagree with the first T -- because the statement itself could have meant "which primary are you looking at?" or maybe it was a train wreck and he just wants to know what you saw -- and jabering doesnt necessarily mean bad and just because he was jabbering if you or your parter have not at least warned him to get off your back at least once this T seems bad IMO. So the second T would not have happened had the game been managed IMO -- because in the report there is nothing that says "Me or my partner had approached the coach earlier in the contest to warn him that his constant complaining and begging for calls would cost him." So if I make a call that is close and a coach or player brings up a good point or asks a question you need to address it or at least consider the fact "Hey I screwed up." 9 out of 10 coaches, or at least those that know the game, will actually work a lot better with you if you at least seem human and capable of mistake "Coach from your angle you might be right, however with what I saw and the information available to me player XYZ appeared to get fouled during the shot."

**Disclaimer for those that will say we cant talk to coaches the whole game -- I agree with that and usually only chat with coaches regarding the 2-3 close questionable calls that happen each game.

For me, a 7th grade coach wouldn't be jabbering the whole game because the first time they did it, they would be warned, the second, they would be taken care of. A coach can yell at their players all they like, they can also ask me questions appropriately as much as they like. Yelling, "what are you looking at" is not a question. This is a comment I might have "not heard" in a varsity game, but in a JH game it would have been taken care of. I'm a big believer in modeling (in my classroom and such) and I think coaches, especially at the lower levels, should show their players what good sportsmanship looks like.

As I've said on other threads, I don't do much rec/JH stuff anymore, but when I do JH stuff, I expect the coach to be on his best behavior. Recently I T'd a JH coach for snickering mockingly at an obvious call and then giving me the "what was that" hand jesture as I reported. He was shocked at the T, but I later explained to him that sportsmanship is an emphasis at the JH level and that I'd be more than willing to answer questions, but wouldn't tolerate being shown up in any way. He understood, we moved on.

My point is that we shouldn't give JH coaches the same priviledges as HS V coaches because they have less invested in the outcome and haven't earned that right. Providing a good example, being a role model and promoting a love of the game and sports in general are needed more at the JH level. Coaches at higher levels earn more rights in my opinion and should be granted more latitude. In this game I have no problem at all with the T or the ejection, and if more officials prevent coaches at the JH level from getting outta control, the better the overall game would be for it.

Well said.