Girls Middle School 7th grade varsity. Both the varsity and the JV had been playing great games. My partner had issued a technical during the JV game which silenced the coach and let the girls play. We were most of the way through the varsity game when the following happened. The head coach of the home team had been jabbering when the following happened: (My report)

<i>During the varsity game I ejected the head coach.

Earlier in the game he had made a comment about a noncall, “What were you looking at? Come on!” I gave him a technical based on rule 10-4-1a and 10-4-1e.

With that he lost the use of the coaching box for the rest of the game (10-5-4 note 1) and is restricted to the bench as in rule 10-4-4. Shortly after the technical foul was administered, he was still using the coaching box. My partner gave him a warning about not using the coaching box.

A short time later I was in the area when he was again using the coaching box. I gave him a second technical for violation of rule 10-4-4. Before he left he made a show of being ejected and calling in the other coach. He could easily have received another technical for violating rule 10-4-1f, inciting undesirable crowd reactions by his body language. (He put his hands over his head in a gesture that said I was overreacting.)

The vice-principal came on to the court asking if we couldn’t just give him a warning. I explained that he had violated a rule and had to pay the penalty just as the students do for violation of school rules.</i>

The home team lost by one point. The difference was the made free throws of the technicals. Outside, after the game, one of the players let me know that he hadn't done anything and I was a terrible ref.

He lost that game for his players.

Rita

What the heck is 7th grade varsity?

Anyway, that vice principal has NO business on or near the court, much less talking to you about anything. Get him out of there.

Also, you can't look at it as though the technical shots cost the game. Not unless those were the only points scored. And even if it was, that's the fault of the coach.

If you're in a tough game like that, you might want to wait until people clear out to leave, instead of chancing meeting players in the parking lot or wherever.

Well u gotta do what u gotta do, buisness is buisness. Nice job noting that statement by the player, some kinda action needs to be taken on him, thats un called for. The game is over, move on.

Wow, your report is very technical (no pun intended) with the way you list the rules to support your calling.

My report would not list rules, I would just describe the events. It is simply a list of events that occured, it seems more like you are trying to defend your calls with the way you wrote it

Don't you think rules should be listed? I thought they should be.

The part about the player wasn't in the report. I only ran into her because I had to go back into the gym for something.

Rita

[Edited by Rita C on Mar 14th, 2006 at 12:38 AM]

If the person reading the report is an official, he'll know the rules. If not, the numbers won't mean anything to him anyway. Either way, just the facts should be adequate. "I tossed the coach for acting like a jackass."
You could word it a bit more subtly if you like.

I thought your reference of the rules was good, Rita. If I had been faced with the same situation, then I would have been hitting the rule book after the game to verify that things had been, or had not been, handled correctly. Good post-game research, I think!! It is always, imo, good to reference the rules - saves people like me time, anyway!

Plus, even when you know you've done the right thing, it has to be reassuring to see it there in black and white. Especially when it's all happening for the first time. I remember when I started coaching, I used to go through cartons of 3 x 5 cards going over the same plays before I taught them to the kids. I don't really do that anymore but it was good for the confidence.

honestly
 

if thats what happened my opinion is that first Technical is a bad one -- unless he screamed it or there was something else it just sounds like he was asking you what you were looking at -- a simple not that or i didnt see sufficent contact for an advantage gained.

As for the second one -- if he gets up for a brief second to coach and sits right back down (once again this isnt HS) -- i would tend to let that go with just a reminder what the penalty is to him. But the second T would not have happened without the first and I dont think those comments warrented a T and Rita it seems like you are being to literal with the rules and you should use more judgement -- because coaches say and do a lot that would result in a T and if we went by the letter of the law most head coaches would be ejected by the end of the first quarter.

just my 2c

Re: honestly
 

:(
I couldn't disagree more. 7th grade game? Coach jabbering all game long? The way I read it, the comment was probably made so the entire gym could hear it, showing the official up in front of everyone. I wouldn't think twice about calling that first T. Even if it wasn't, it sure looks like it qualifies as an ABS T.
The second T was also just as good, although your partner should have probably called that one. Without that, though, you had the guts to call it. Good job.
While you probably could have justified a third T, you probably were better off avoiding it if possible. As long as he's leaving, albeit slowly, let him go.

Sounds to me like you handled the situation well.

The behavior of the kid after the game doesn't surprise me, because the players on a team often take on the personality of their coach. And if the coach is very disrespectful to the officials, then the players will be too.

I'd also be sure to tell my assigner about the behavior of the vice principal. That needs to be addressed.

The report was written for my assignor and any other powers-that-be in the association.

The attitude of the association is similar to that of Snaqwells. There will be a letter written to the school addressing the issue. Basically saying, we as an association look to what could possibly be done differently to avoid a similar situation in the future, we hope the coach and the principal will do the same.

Rita

One thing that you might want to incorporate into your game.

I've had a couple of situations where following an ejection the coach was making a show.

If there is any hesitation whatsoever, ask the timer to start a 1 minute countdown and if the coach hasn't vacated the court by that time than you're deeming him to be making a travesty of the game and forfeit the game.

It'll get him out quickly and easily with no problems.

Re: honestly
 

I don't know about this, deecee. In my area, they want us to be pretty strict with the jh stuff, and a little less rigid with the JV and Var high schools. If there were more T's in the first and second quarters, maybe the coaches would back off a little. It's very frustrating to have a 7th grade coach, who clearly has no clue, ragging on and on about the calls and no-calls. And it does no one any good. Players need to learn to respect appropariate authority. If coach isn't setting the example, kids don't learn it.

Rita, that coach did lose the game for his kids, but not in the way you mean it. He lost the game by not helping them play their best. If he'd been coaching the players instead of the refs, they'd have learned some basketball and played well enough to win. Instead, he is teaching them that they don't have to take responsibilities for their own weaknesses. That kind of coaching should never be acceptable.

Plenty of chances
 

Your partner and you gave that coach plenty of chances to stay in the game, HE chose to hit the showers early.

The report, a little technical IMO. All that rules reference make you look a little over officious, again IMO.

One other thing I would have included is the run-in with the player. When you are filling out a report I would list everything that occured, INCLUDING post game events even if you did not issue an T/ejection.

Re: Re: honestly
 

I'm going to give a maybe you're both right in this case but I really want to point something out. At the risk of a royal flaming I want to point out that, as distasteful as a howler coach may be, his/her ability to teach and coach is not necessarily mutually exclusive with these actions.

I will use the example of my original mentor whose lack of social depth and warmth, I'm convinced, is the only thing that kept him from being one of those quirky D! underdog coaches like Pete Carill or Dick Bennett. The guy was a respected genius (w/ some impressive mentors himself) who could be an absolute bear. He tended to get a long leash from officials (I guess because of his reputation) and he would sometimes look like he was about to pop a vein only to turn around and wink at someone in the crowd. He commanded player respect, some fear but a lot of awe. His game and clock management was second to none. Any players who lost focus or spoke to officials were reamed (to the point where I cringed sometimes). This guy was on top of games like no one I've ever seen and he was a howler to boot.

He never passed up a chance to exploit a rule to gain even a minor psychological advantage. One time we were playing a rival on the road and they were celebrating senior night. The opponent wanted an extra 10 minutes to honor seniors and their parents. Our coach cited some league rule that required 10 days prior notice and refused and everyone kind of laughed and thought he was joking. After 10 minutes of halftime, the opposing seniors were lined up with their parents and our coach demanded our team go out and warm up. The kids were horrified but he screamed, "warm up!" They dribbled out on the court. I can't remember the resolution because I was cringing in the corner, but I think coach pitched a fit and our team came off and senior night carried on.

Anyway, you can argue whatever negatives you want about this guy but he was teaching more basketball than anyone I have seen and he actually was teaching a lot about life. He was unconventional, rude, sometimes unprincipled sometimes generous as hell but his teams were prepared and everyone was mentally present. To this day I don't know exactly what he was doing or if he was a little crazy. I couldn't even tell you if I liked him or not. But I'll tell you he was the best damn coach I have ever seen and the kids who still have lunch with him 15 - 20 years later agree. He even has lunch with a kid from an opposing team who went on to win a state championship beating opponents by an average of nearly 30 points. He beat our team by an average of less than three and developed an unlikely respect for coach before moving on to play for Pete Carill at Princeton.

Disagree with coaches who talk to officials but don't totally dismiss the possibility that they may be coaching and teaching as well.

Long walk for short trip.

Re: Re: Re: honestly
 

At the risk of a royal flaming I want to point out that, as distasteful as a howler coach may be, his/her ability to teach and coach is not necessarily mutually exclusive with these actions.

Disagree with coaches who talk to officials but don't totally dismiss the possibility that they may be coaching and teaching as well.

[/B][/QUOTE]That's a complete pile of doo-doo. Whining at officials to try and get an unfair advantage has got absolutely <b>nothing</b> to do with coaching and teaching. You're simply trying to rationalize away unsporting behavior.

just a question, if the shoe fits, wear it.

But why is it alright for we officials to judge whether or not someone is a good coach but coaches get lit up in this forum if they criticize or pass judgement on a referee?

I've dealt with coaches who I've thought were total a-holes, but I don't feel that gives me some kind of special insight or expertise to determine whether or not they are an effective coach. Just b/c a coach b*tches and moans to officials all game doesn't mean he's not coaching and teaching his players. Those actions are not mutually exclusive. You can not evaluate a coach's interaction with his players based upon that coach's interactions with officials. We don't know what goes on in practices, in the huddle, in the locker room, in the classroom; we don't know the X's & O's that coach teaches.

Dealing with officials is just one part of a coach's job. Just b/c a coach may be lousy in that aspect of his job doesn't make him weak in the other aspects.

We now rejoin our regularly scheduled broadcast.....

I'm with you, Rita
 

Deecee,
Without having been there and heard/seen it, I'm giving Rita the benefit of the doubt. You certainly can't tell how it was said by seeing the words in type. If one of my children ask me, "Dad, why aren't we eating supper yet," they can do so in VERY different ways. One would warrant an answer. The other would warrant something else. So, I'm believing the T was warranted.

Maybe more junior high (and 6th grade) coaches should be getting ejected. I gave my share of warnings with the "that's enough, coach" phrase this year. I also gave two T's for a "You GOTTA call that!" type of statement that was loud and disrespectful. There was at least one other situation where I thought afterwords that I should have given a T to a coach and didn't.

I'm all for communicating with coaches, but I'm equally for the coaches acting respectfully. I've got no problem with coaches communicating with officials. I've got BIG problems with coaches being disrespectful.

I get it.

You think that we should give coaches the benefit of the doubt.

But, as per the Kentucky thread, you don't think that we should give a fellow official the benefit of the doubt.

If the shoe fits, wear it.....indeed. :rolleyes:

No, I'm saying "how are we qualified to judge the abililties of a coach?" That has nothing to do with benefit of the doubt. This forum takes a very harsh tone with coaches who criticize officials, yet everyday I read sermons in here from officials to coaches on what is or isn't good coaching.

As for the KY situation, I did give the benefit of the doubt to an official, the one named Montgomery. As I said previously, Bailey starts out in the negative side of the ledger for being in the locker room when he should not have been.

Yup...indeed....

I know exactly what you're saying.

all i said
 

was that the comment "What were you looking at? Come on!" doesnt sound T worthy - I know he had been jabbering but I have seen coaches that jabbered all game but they were valid questions and just because he was jabbering all game does not warrant a T. Especially if you or your partner have not at least told him once that he needs to pick his battle and to not complain about every call or no call. IMO thats just good game management.

Players and coaches both sometimes make good points about calls/nocalls -- just last night adult rec league player drives the lane and as soon as he picks up the ball gets fouled. Me and my partner blow the whistle but i quickly pull my hand down and thought the player was on the ground -- my partner thought he was shooting and one of the opposing player asks him "Looked like he was still on the ground?" to which my partner replied "No, he picked the ball up therefore he was shooting." The player now replies "What does just picking the ball up have to do with shooting if there is no motion started?" My partner replied with his same reply -- The player argued for about 3-5 more seconds and then I chimed in to him "Let it go and move on because allyou argue is not going to change anything." One of his teammates agreed and it was all over.

So once again after all my babbling all I said was that from the sounds of it I disagree with the first T -- because the statement itself could have meant "which primary are you looking at?" or maybe it was a train wreck and he just wants to know what you saw -- and jabering doesnt necessarily mean bad and just because he was jabbering if you or your parter have not at least warned him to get off your back at least once this T seems bad IMO. So the second T would not have happened had the game been managed IMO -- because in the report there is nothing that says "Me or my partner had approached the coach earlier in the contest to warn him that his constant complaining and begging for calls would cost him." So if I make a call that is close and a coach or player brings up a good point or asks a question you need to address it or at least consider the fact "Hey I screwed up." 9 out of 10 coaches, or at least those that know the game, will actually work a lot better with you if you at least seem human and capable of mistake "Coach from your angle you might be right, however with what I saw and the information available to me player XYZ appeared to get fouled during the shot."

**Disclaimer for those that will say we cant talk to coaches the whole game -- I agree with that and usually only chat with coaches regarding the 2-3 close questionable calls that happen each game.

For me, a 7th grade coach wouldn't be jabbering the whole game because the first time they did it, they would be warned, the second, they would be taken care of. A coach can yell at their players all they like, they can also ask me questions appropriately as much as they like. Yelling, "what are you looking at" is not a question. This is a comment I might have "not heard" in a varsity game, but in a JH game it would have been taken care of. I'm a big believer in modeling (in my classroom and such) and I think coaches, especially at the lower levels, should show their players what good sportsmanship looks like.

As I've said on other threads, I don't do much rec/JH stuff anymore, but when I do JH stuff, I expect the coach to be on his best behavior. Recently I T'd a JH coach for snickering mockingly at an obvious call and then giving me the "what was that" hand jesture as I reported. He was shocked at the T, but I later explained to him that sportsmanship is an emphasis at the JH level and that I'd be more than willing to answer questions, but wouldn't tolerate being shown up in any way. He understood, we moved on.

My point is that we shouldn't give JH coaches the same priviledges as HS V coaches because they have less invested in the outcome and haven't earned that right. Providing a good example, being a role model and promoting a love of the game and sports in general are needed more at the JH level. Coaches at higher levels earn more rights in my opinion and should be granted more latitude. In this game I have no problem at all with the T or the ejection, and if more officials prevent coaches at the JH level from getting outta control, the better the overall game would be for it.

Well said.