That's easy...he loves refereeing, plus hs ball in Louisville is very good and competitive. I have heard him say in casual conversation that he was not going to let them run him out. He helps a lot of guys who want it. Most however resent him for their "personal" reasons. I think they are simply jealous, but will never admit it.

KY is still a good ole boy's club society and Vic is not a member. But, like I said, he speaks his mind and they do not like that. Darrell obviously pushed him over the edge.

Here is another question. How much credibility should we give to a poster who suddenly appears for the first time very on this board,defends his buddy, and makes a lot of accusations against the other official. Then he throws in a few other vague and unsubstantiated claims? The answer would be "none."

Z

You're right, but word of this stuff on this board has spread like wildfire. Do not be surprised if more new posters come out of the clear blue. You do not have to believe anything I post. Everyone will form their own opinions as they already have. My post is an opinion as well. Of course, as one poster stated, how can one PROVE any of this. It is all speculation...but we all know whatever it is that we WANT to know.

I do not think I made accusations against Darrell other than to say he was wrong. I think other posters have stated the same or similiar thing. Vic is not a buddy, but merely an acquaintance that has helped me in some capacity. Yes, I am coming to his defense because even though I was NOT there Friday night, I know some of the history that may have caused him to further react like he may have done. I have heard the talk in the KBOA first hand.

As far as the claims, reserach it yourself and see if there are any others right now...

I give him the same weight I would give anybody who comes on here to say "I know both officials and Darrell Bailey would do no such thing" or "I officiate in Kentucky and what House18 is saying about KY officias is not true in my opinion".

It's his opinion. There's no right or wrong to his opinion.

Here's another question that's crossed my mind.

If a coach had called Vic a "boy," what would he have done?

If I were African-American and he said that, I would call a flagrant technical and there probably would been a scene on the court.

Some things I do not understand
 

1. Where the heck was Montgomery's partner in all of this? I do not see anything unusual about a guy working game 2 showing up at the half in the officials' locker room btw.
2. Where the heck was Bailey's partner in all of this? When guys working the 2nd game come in at halftime it is the whole crew that comes in.
3. If Bailey's partner was NOT with him, why not?
4. It seems like two guys [partners] or maybe four guys [if a 3 person crew which makes this even worse] used extremely poor game management skills and are skating like Calvin Schiraldi in game 6 of the 1986 WS.
5. Halftime is for discussing the game at hand, making adjustments, etc. At the first sign of trouble, the 2nd game participants should have been asked to leave.
6. I assume that the bystanders [other crew member(s)] would have needed to file some type of report to the association.

Now I know that many of my questions will never be answered, but I have not seen them brought up in this very long thread.:eek:

The same if any of the commonly known offensive epitaths were verbalized within my earshot: white trash, cracker, wetback, spic, gook, etc. Use of any of those terms could be contrued as Flagrant if uttered by a coach and as taunting if coming from a player. (i hold coach to a higher standard)

The one 'tech' I wish I had given in my career was a game in my 2nd year where players (all Black) from one team kept referring to a darked-skinned Black player from the other team as a monkey. It was gutless of me not to address the issue and I'm still dissappointed with myself to this day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap 1. Where the heck was Montgomery's partner in all of this? I do not see anything unusual about a guy working game 2 showing up at the half in the officials' locker room btw.

This issue was actually addressed by our board this past season. Ref's from either the preceeding or subsequent game, coming into the locker room at halftime and making unsolicited comments. I will not enter the halftime locker room unless invited or, if I have a cordial relationship with all members of the crew, I may ask to come in, but I refrain any basketball related discussions. I sit and listen and once discussions turn to general bulls**t, then I join in. If it's a JV crew and BOTH members are officials whom I am 'cool with' (for lack of a better phrase) I may ask about a specific play. But locker room at halftime is the safe haven for the WORKING crew and they shouldn't be subjected to any outside influences.

And if that's true, then such an official has no business on the court.

Pretty much what happens in the games I am involved with are exchanges like:"Are you seeing anything out there? " or "Anything you see I can be working on?" I always ask about going in at half. And most officials on my board get along with everyone else.

You are exactly right. I know we are supposed to be professional, but those are what we used to call "fighting words." I can tell you calling someone Black a "boy" in other settings might get a bigger response than just getting punched in the face if we were on the block or in a club. Bailey knew what he was doing when he made those comments and based on other situations. Once again, we are not talking about a state here that has had no racial incidents in the past. We are talking about a situation where the state has history and a white person is accused of calling someone a racial slur. Now maybe there are people that think this is not a big deal. If you do not feel it is a big deal, go to the Proviso schools in Maywood and Hillside and call those kids and fans "boys." Come to the south side of Chicago and call those kids and fans "boys" then tell me when you get out of the hospital if you are lucky that is all that happens to you after you call some African-Americans that are not going to care about professionalism before they split your head open with a weapon or their hands, then tell me how much of a big deal this is not. I think if all Montgomery did was have words with Bailey that is a really good job on his part. If he said that to someone else Bailey or anyone else might not be so lucky. Now you can think this is a moral stand and try to act like these things are not a big issue, but I am sure no one's mother raised that big of a fool to think that you can say or do anything and a reaction is not a serious possibility. My Mom used to say to me all the time, "You can be right and dead at the same time."

Peace

I have observed this thread for a while and feel that now's a good time to comment. I agree and disagree with a lot of the previous posts. Firstly, I don't think we need to hear Bailey's side of the story, because the preponderance of the evidence gives us a pretty good idea of how things went down. Bailey himself admitted fault and didn't challenge his suspension, so by that alone, we have to assume that he did enter the locker room and referred to Montgomery as "boy" and that an altercation took place. The only gray area here is where the dispute took place, Mongomery said the dispute with Bailey took place in the locker room and only spilled out onto the court after he was replaced, while newspaper accounts simply point to a "visible dispute." After reading Montgomery's side of the story, I believe that the dispute happened behind closed doors and that the only reason it could've spilled out is if he was being replaced at the half. I know if I was being replaced by a tournament director at the half, I'd likely react the same way. Also, the only way that any dispute could've gone public would've been if Bailey followed Montgomery onto the court, in which case, Montgomery would have, in my opinion, more latitute.

In terms of how Bailey got into the locker room, he was not only officiating the following game, but he was the president of the association. Typically, at least in my area, commissioners of officials/observers and following officials routinely can go into the locker room at the half. In terms of where the partners were, I think we can speculate that the racial element and the fact that this guy's the association president may have played a role. Personally, if I was working a game and someone pulled my partner off at halftime, I'd refuse to work the second half as well, the lack of partner intervention here is astounding and lends credence to Montgomery's assertions.

When I initially read the story, I completely faulted Montgomery, and considered his actions grossly unprofessional, I now understand exactly why he took the legal actions he did. Montgomery was removed, AT HALFTIME from a playoff game by someone who he didn't feel had the authority to do it, after a dispute in the locker room with another official. That fact makes the visible altercation seem logical. Montgomery suffered extreme embarrassment by being pulled at the half, which no official, short of extreme conditions, should ever be. This is the heart of the issue, and I feel that the further legal action is warranted on that basis. I doubt this incident takes place without Montgomery being pulled at the half. Given the racial tension described in Kentucky, I can see why Montgomery feels race may have played a role.

In terms of the other topic of conversation on this thread, the reaction to Bailey calling Montgomery "boy" I have mixed feelings. My opinion is that, especially in our roles as officials, we must control our emotions all the times and not allow words, no matter how painful, to cause us to lose control. If you can't control yourself, there's no way you can manage the game, not to say that it's easy to do so. If a coach used that, I'd expect an ejection, but I would deem it to be unprofessional for an official to start a confrontation with the coach. Doing so only leads to the official getting in trouble and often results in the coach either looking vindicated or like a victim. Imagine in a racially charged atmosphere, a white coach calling a black official "boy" or worse and the black official not only ejects the white coach but charges at him and either hits him or unloads verbally. To onlookers, it looks as if the official, rather than the coach is at fault and as a result, the coach will get off much lighter than he should or otherwise would. In this case, Bailey baited Montgomery into losing his assignments. That being said, I'm not prepared to even call Montgomery's reaction unprofessional because if it stayed in the locker room he should have much more latitute than if the dispute indeed took place entirely in the public eye (even so, pulling an official during a game is just absurd).

Some quick questions
 

It has been written in this thread that 16 officials are selected for the KY state tournament.
There are 16 teams that make it to state. Is there only one division in KY or is there a large school and a small school tourney? I thought I saw something about that when ESPN did the profile on KY HS basketball on that show the season. BTW, that was an excellent piece.

Are those 8 first round games worked 2-man? How about the semifinals and championship game?

How are the officials for the semis and final chosen? Do they come from those same 16?

KY is one of very few states where there is only 1 class of basketball. KY is divided into 16 regions. Louisville has 2 regions. The single regional winners advance to Rupp Arena for the "Sweet 16." The officiating is 3 person. Officials cannot referee a game of the team(s) from the region they represent. For example, a referee from Louisville cannot work the teams from the 2 regions from Louisville at Rupp. The officials also cannot work for the school that they may have graduated from either.

House, does that mean that there are 16 different officials associations in Ky- one for each region? Is the previously mentioned KBOA only one of many associations there? How are the 16 officials chosen for the Sweet Sixteen?

Just trying to understand the procedure used.

A paragraph from the Louisville Courier-Journal of March 14.

In an interview, Scott, the KHSAA's attorney, said that even if racial taunting precipitated the argument, it did not excuse Montgomery's conduct, which spilled into public view while he was in his official's uniform.

"If you are in a striped shirt, that is not the kind of leadership we expect in high school sports," Scott said. "Officials set the examples for others to follow."

He said a student-athlete would have been suspended for a similar outburst.

Z

Yes, the KBOA is one of many local associations. I have never been selected for the state tourney, but Vic has been several times (not sure how many). The coaches and assigning secretaries rate the officials and based off that rating, this determines how far you advance in the tournaments: district, region, and selection for the state.

I am not sure how the state refs are selected but sometimes, some regions do not get represented because of the mandated 3 black officials that must go to State.

From my understanding, this attorney is simply backing up what he was given to say. He was not there. Did the guy who removed Vic have the ability to do so? Of course the KHSAA will defend their actions...right or wrong. No one ever thinks that racial comments or taunts warrant any actions...especially those who never have racial taunts aimed at them.

[QUOTE=house18]
From my understanding, this attorney is simply backing up what he was given to say. He was not there. Did the guy who removed Vic have the ability to do so? Of course the KHSAA will defend their actions...right or wrong.

The only solid information on this to date seems only to be what has been printed in newspaper accounts, and you never know if even those are completely accurate. If the allegations are true, then action of some kind certainly has to be taken. Is there any kind of investigation under way that will throw some definitive light on what actually happened in the dressing room? Has Mr. Montgomery laid a complaint re: the racial aspect with the appropriate state agency for follow-up investigation? I would hope that the answer is "yes" on both accounts. The speculation and innuendo imo at this time is not doing anybody any good- including all officials in Ky. I think that the air really needs to be cleared on this one.

Btw, weren't <b>both</b> officials barred from doing further games in that Regional? Wasn't Mr. Bailey supposed to be on the final with Mr. Montgomery, and <b>both</b> officials were removed for their actions in public by whoever made that decision?

http://www.wlextv.com/global/story.asp?s=4625544

I had not read that account from the Lexington, KY media. Pretty good reading. Seems to me that Darrell accepted it because he knew he was wrong...Just my opinion.

I agree that he accepted responsibility for his involvement in the embarrassing incident. When the incident is completely investigated, I hope that his punishment is appropriate. I also hope that the other official involved accepts some responsibility for being unprofessional rather than saying it was some kind of noble defense of his manhood.

Z

I agree, both officials need to accept a punishment. No matter what was said, there was a reaction. We would treat it the same way in a sporting event, cause and reaction, both penalized.

A poster mentioned earlier what would this black official do if he was called a "boy" by a coach...

Well, what would an overweight official do if a coach called him a fat---?

I don't know either official, it is just embarrassing to me because I am an official in Kentucky. Believe, me when a coach called me a SOB several times a few years ago, I had a reaction, was it inappropriate, sure, but a human response. I hate that it happened, but it did....

Hope the KBOA officials can work through this because I am sure they will be issues next year. I just hope they can be mature and re-set their goals as men, community leaders.

In my association, we have only one black official, he's great, no problems, we all love him. KBOA is a much larger official association in Louisville that has more black officials, not sure how many. I just hate to see them split, segregate, that would just be a slap in the face of humanity.

Just remember, color is not blind, it is there, we all see it. It's the stupid things we think or say that make it stick out. God Bless

I can change my weight. I cannot ever change my race or color. Not a very good comparison if you ask me. Also being fat does not come with the same history either. I realize you might be trying to come to some rationalization for this, but as you said you are not Black and knowing that you will not ever be Black makes it easy for you to take a position that you really do not understand. I am sure you mean well, but the analogy is very off.

Peace

[QUOTE=irefky]In my association, we have only one black official, he's great, no problems, we all love him. (What is that suppose to mean he's great, no problems. ?) Is this because he does not go against the idealogy of the association?

Maybe he knows his place and leaves all the white people alone. If that is not what he meant, it sure sounded that way. :rolleyes: I am glad someone else pointed it out.

Peace

Not only that, but maybe he is soooo great because he is not above the other white officials and they are not threatened by his presence. An opinion...

I've always been able to walk away from any verbiage. Coaches are usually more controlled but I think we've all heard plenty from fans. I hope, and I believe, that I'll always be able to walk away.

Bottom line, there's more to this situation that we've been told.

I'm done with it.

But not until your over/under was shot to heck. :D

That's your opinion. I think you think that I mean I, as the official, would start the scene.

I meant that the coach, after getting run, would start something. Hell, if he's capable of using a racial epithet how do you think he'd react after getting unceremoniously tossed?

Again, it's mostly hypothetical, since I'm a white guy. I'd toss a coach just as quick for calling me fat, though.

BTW, when I said there would be a scene if I was ever in that situation, I meant that there would probably be a scene startted by the coach after I ejected him with a flagrant technical.

What was the over/under on this thread becoming a racial pissing contest between JRut and Jurassic? No offense to either one..they both brought up great issues and are closer to agreeing than they care to admit!:D It will be interesting to see where this goes.

The thread also makes me glad that high school assignments in Arizona go through the AIA. (Arizona Interscholastic Association) No local groups, fewer polititcs...better control of schools and officials.....and an incident like this WOULD be handled swiftly.

The one big thought that came to me. (and someone else mentioned it) is WHERE was Mr. Montgomery's partner? SURELY there were cooler heads somewhere? Or was the partner complicit in the argument?

[QUOTE=azbigdawg]What was the over/under on this thread becoming a racial pissing contest between JRut and Jurassic? No offense to either one.


[QUOTE]I don't partake in "racial pissing contests" with anyone. I do take great offense to your statement.

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee][QUOTE=azbigdawg]What was the over/under on this thread becoming a racial pissing contest between JRut and Jurassic? No offense to either one.



Please dont.

Rut, that maybe true, but it still is a personal attack. Regardless, of what you may think, it still hurts. The history of slavery, I am in no means trying to compare it with ones' weight, just to compare with ones' personal feelings. Black versus weight is not the issue, nor do I want it to be black versus white, just a common attack upon ones' personal feelings. Please, understand and you do lure to it, but you are "very off" if you think otherwise.

However, knowing history, nor do I want to defend it in anyway, whites were also inslaved. You may have heard the term, "serfs." Anyhow, and I am sure everyone on this board does not want to get into some crappie history lesson, it was WRONG. Regardless of the skin color, it was morally wrong. And again, my comparison was not for validity, but simply ones' own personal feelings of being attacked.

I know an official who started this year, he's obese. He eventually turned his schedule in, why? He was doing a game and the fans began cheering, "dough boy, dough boy." I spoke to him shortly, and told him he could do two things, quit or work is *** off to drop the pounds. I really felt bad for this man, he was hurt. It was a personal attack. Just as Mr. Montgomery was attacked, personally.

[quote=irefky]In my association, we have only one black official, he's great, no problems, we all love him. (What is that suppose to mean he's great, no problems. ?) Is this because he does not go against the idealogy of the association?

Why do some of you want to turn comments around? No, to your question. This guy goes to the State Tournament because he's that damn good. There's no jealousy, as the folks from Louisville said was going on in their association. Each official in our association respects him for both an official and person. No problems, meant from the white officials toward him. It's not all about color, some may think it is. I simply was saying it has nothing to do with it in our group.

Now you are trying to justify what is the history? No one said that being called fat would not hurt, but it does not carry the same history. I know you think because you read some book and they told you white people were enslaved that must mean something. Well let me put it to you this way. My last name I cannot trace directly back the country or the ancestors that came before me. That applies to every single African-American I can think of (why do you think we use the term African-American in the first place?). Not knowing your family religion, tribe or customs are quite different from my standpoint compared to others that know who came over on the boat to this country and why they came over on the boat. In many cases we were here a lot longer than those that are white, but we have to prove we are Americans more than those that in the last century just got here.

Secondly no one was twisting anything. You made it sound like the guy was supposed to be a problem and decided not to be a problem. Those were your words, not mine. I used to belong to a pretty much all-Black association and we had white people in the organization. I would not refer to those members has "not causing problems" in any way. Either way it goes your statements showed a lot if you ask me. I do not get offended easily or care what people like you think. You just keep prove to all of us what we have to overcome.

Have a nice day.

Peace

That wasn't my question Rich. I asked what would the official do if the coach called him boy. I didn't ask what an official would do after a coach attacked him. Not sure why you answered my question while changing the scenario.

Because I don't read for comprehension?

You really have a lot of hatred, resentment. My apologies if you read more into what I was saying than what I was really saying. I just want all of us to live together. What I was saying, "I was more worried about white folks in our association having the problem, not the other guy." Not that it sound, more than you want it to sound offensive.

Please accept my apologies if I offended you. I certainly don't want to make anyone have to overcome anything that I say or do in life. I don't see black as African Americans, I really don't. I look at the black man as I do myself, as an American, nothing more or less.

I have read many of your post since I have been on these boards, I respect what you have posted. This does not change anything, a mutual respect. Thanks

Oh well, life does go on.
 

I had an opinion one what you said that means I have hatred and resentment? Who do I have this hatred towards? Let the truth be told I have accomplished a lot more than many with all things being equal. Race is a factor in a lot of things. I have no problem talking about that. You comments I found interesting and I was not the only one that pointed this fact out. Now if you are upset that someone took your words and drew a conclusion, well that is something you will have to do deep down in your soul.

Who said anything about being offended? I think you really need to look inward to find what you meant. I did not say I was at all offended. If anything I found your comments "interesting." Remember, you made them, I just commented on them. I am sorry that you have to define everything as what country they are from. Of course most people in this country are American; we should not have to keep pointing that out. This is not an international issue.

Peace

Resolution/Outcome from KY Incident - It's Over.
 

It has been a while since this topic hit the boards, but here’s what I know…you may believe it or not or voice your opinion about it or not.

Darrell Bailey was suspended for a year by the KHSAA. Darrell was the white official that came in the locker room at halftime of Vic Montgomery’s game. Victor resigned from the local and state association. Victor is no longer officiating high school basketball, but is still officiating at the collegiate level (I do not know if it's Division i, ii, or iii) and I hear is doing very well and has moved on since this incident. No lawsuit is pending that I know of. Darrell is still officiating, but I think only in the ABA. Darrell was asked to resign as president but did not resign. Victor was not asked to resign.

The assigning secretary, Rip Hatfield, was replaced…basically fired. Bobby McGrath is the new assigning secretary in Louisville.

This was a crazy incident and many rumors and untruths floated around. One thing for certain that did NOT happen is that neither official struck the other nor did the altercation EVER go into the stands. I think it is best the EVERYONE just move on and let this thing die down as the officials involved have done.

Personal attacks toward either official is not needed. This is just my opinion…

Considering that this thread had been dead for 9 months, I'd say that we'd already let it die down and moved on. ;)

I'm just kidding around with you. Thanks for the update. That was obviously a very difficult and unpleasant situation. I'm glad it's resolved.

Yeah, you're right...however, there was a post wanting a resolution update a few months ago...so thus, the update. :)

Does anyone still have this story - the original link is not active!

Conclusion
 

After reading up on all the responses and totally amazed at this issue. I had to look further to try and understand what really was going on here. First of all, anyone that says Vic is to blame for this is crazy, and if you are an official saying this, I challenge if you are even capable of judging fair play. Vic is a Vice Principle of a Middle High School for crying out loud and a very accomplished basketball official. This in itself is credibility people! Do I need to say more?

Now let's take a look at the other persons credibility. We don't know because he doesn't have any, or he simply doesn't have a leg to stand on. Also, according to the May 2006 article in Referee Magazine, Bailey admitted to calling Vic a boy several times.

Another piece of this is referee's Darin Stanfield and Alfred Smith completely dropped the ball here. According to the KHSAA code of ethnics, it says officials shouldn't work state playoffs games from the school they graduated from. Now let's be real. If your HS makes it to the state playoffs and you happen to get that game. At the very least, we're talking credibility here, but at the very least they should have informed the assigner that they went to this HS. More of this later.

As JRUT mentioned, we already have a racial issue in Kentucky when it comes to minorities, particularly blacks, getting to work state hs playoffs games. So much so, that the people in charge of assigning these games, wouldn't correct this issue themselves, so the Supreme Court had to get involved. People, this isn't 1897 here. I think it's safe to assume that Vic may have been apart of this struggle to take this case to the Supreme Court, and now, working it to this point, he gets ambush, successfully.

I beginning to smell a rat here. When no punches where thrown, they argued inside of the officials locker room which according to Vic did not spill out from the locker room to the court. I imagine some pretty bad things where probably said in this room, and Vic's partners had to separate them. Now Vic returns to the floor to find he is no longer working the game! Hold the phone! Do you begin to see the setup here? And yes the tournament director was in on it. Now I'm basing my conclusion on the time Vic and his partners left the officials locker room to the time they returned to the court. What exactly happened during this time? This is the grey area.

Vic, who is very credible to me says nothing happened, and Bailey indicated he went to sit in an area with other officials. Now, if nothing happen here, they had absolutely no grounds to remove him from working the 2nd half. In fact, it's written in the code, once an official starts a game, he has to finish it. I'm saying that they where wrong to do this to him, his rights where violated, and he didn't start this problem. Now, after they told him he couldn't work the 2nd half, then all hell broke lose! I don't know of any red blooded American that wears the black and white stripes, that would not have come unglued here. Now, they got what they wanted, what they needed, and thus he was removed from the rest of the tournament. Mission accomplished.

Nows let's get back to the 2 officials that started this. I'm sure they where quite angry when they where told they couldn't work there graduating HS games and blamed Vic, the Supreme Court, and everybody that wasn't white for it. I'm sure there was some outrage, and this spilled over. I think Vic suffer the biggest lost here. His reputation has been permanently damaged, and for what. Standing up for what was right! Regardless if Vic had anything to do with those other 2 gentlemen working that HS game that they graduated from. This was the problem, this was wrong on there part. You can't do that. You have to know that this is wrong and given the assigner enough notice, he probably could have just switch them with another crew. My bet is they wanted to work that game. My bet is Vic doesn't do any assigning of state HS games either. So if Vic did mention that there is a conflict of interest here, which is truly what Bailey was upset about. Vic was the only one acting like an adult, trying to uphold the code of honor. Remember, he's a vice principle. He's teaching your kids about respect and following the rules. He sees it first hand everyday.

This was a nice ambush, worked to perfection. Black guy is now out! How many times has this been done to us? Far too many, and what's worst, people like some of you on this forum, try to pretend that it really didn't happen that way. I'm sure these individuals settled out of court. I'm also hope they are able to move on and wish them much continued success. If the KHSAA was smart, they would want more people like Vic working there tournaments because we all know now, there is some big time problems and bad seeds in that organization.

So, you're basically saying that some of your fellow officials that post here are racists. And that's without ever having met or talked to them.

You just had to ressurrect this, didn't you? Are you happy now?

I will say this and leave it. A lot of people want to think you cannot have these kinds of events anymore or try to minimize them because the incidents did not take place in the 1960s. The reality is racism still exists and the person that told a room full of people about the Supreme Court was not a person of color and was the Chairperson of the NF Rules Committee. He said they had had problems in the past (no one even asked him about that topic BTW when he decided to report this information about his state).

It does not make you a racist because someone is not informed about current happenings that might not ever affect you personally. The reality is Kentucky like a lot of places across the country have problems dealing with race and it manifests itself in what we do when it comes to officiating. I may not agree with Old School very often, but he has a point to raise these issues. Considering I have had the very same conversation with fellow officials well off this board.

Peace

I did not say that, you are reading into it. I am entitled to my opinion just like you are but true be told, I never called anyone a racist.

If you want to talk about the issue, the topic, okay, anything else, not!

It will be helpful if both of you (and certain other esteemed members) would adhere to this practice.