Hey everyone.... Had a situation today that is really on my mind and I need some criticism and or support for my decision.

Sectional NJ CYO 7-8 Boys 3rd and 4th playoff championship game…

A – Green…8 players strong, no height B – White…10 players strong, all height

My situation is a building one so here it goes (sorry about the long thread…)

1st Quarter –
Green is down by 10; coach is yapping all quarter about travels, fouls, keeps on screaming “shot, AND ONE!!!) And no foul was called… So, my partner and I mostly ignore it since we didn’t want to eject or penalize a team for their coach’s behavior. We keep on telling the coach, (HEY REF did you see that foul?) – that wasn’t a foul coach… etc…

2nd Quarter –
Sloppy playing both teams, shooting double bonus… No incidents… Green down by 8

3rd Quarter –
Green is down by 6; A1 is running up court parallel to B1, and A1 runs into “traffic” and falls down… Really no call, since no one had the ball, no one had possession since they were all moving so I and my partner let it go… Were talking about four players who basically just bumped into each other… No one falls down; no one looks hurt they all just play on… (Keep in mind this was not a washout then keep moving, this was just bumping)

A1 is down on the court (in front of his bench) and the coach screams “that sure looked like a foul to me, didn’t it to you?) At this point I’m just ignoring the coach… and A1 turns and says “sure did, this ref is blind, he has no clue what he’s doing out here… Unbelievable!!! This guy is Unbelievable!!!”……TWEET got A1 for “T” and B shoots 2 (makes none)

Later on…

A1 is playing and walking to the bench for a substitution… I’m across the court at the free throw line extended on the sideline ready to inbound the ball and A1 walks back onto the court and says “Ref, YOU SHOULD JUST DIE, I HOPE YOU DIE”… TWEET got him again… B shoots 2 – makes 1… then the debate is how the A coach says I can’t “T” his player since he’s not on the court… etc…

Then the coach starts with his bickering (and I quote)… “what is this your first time?” Do you even know how to blow a whistle? Your ridiculous… your unbelievable… Instead of whacking the coach, I told him – that’s ENOUGH COACH… and play went on…

4th Quarter –
Green down by 20; I find out that A1 is now back on the court after being DQ’ed… The other coach lets it go and we continue… This coach didn’t know about 2 “T’s” he sits…

It’s just been bothering me all night (game was at 2)… I wouldn’t of changed anything but I don’t know… I guess I should have gotten the coach first but he was alone and again – this was the semi-final (3rd/4th place game) so I didn’t want to “take the ball out of anyones hands”…

End of game - Coach comes up to me (with A1) and asks what did he say... Told him... Your unbeli. where did you learn to ref? etc... Then my partner jumps in and says "Well did you say he should die" - coach goes - NOT THE POINT! "Thanks for loosing us the game!"

Any comments?

HAHA I had a 6th grade boys CYO game today. Coach gets mad about a PC call against his team me and my partner try to avoid giving him a T but he wants it and wont back down. So he gets it. He sits down and is good till the 4th quatre. Game tied his player drives the lane and travels. He gets up and jumps on the floor to " Call a timeout" aka argue, he keeps moving more and more on the court. My partner gives him his second T. He is told he has been ejected and needs to leave. He refuses after 30 seconds we remind him again. Another 10 seconds go by and still he is coaching his players. We then call the game a forfit. He goes over to his fans, gathers them togeather and has the all come over to argue. We then try to turn away, but everywhere we go turn parents are around. We are told that the scoresheet wont be finallized till we sign are names. This came from the assistant coach. I failed to mention the opposing team picked up and walked away as soon as they won as a result of the forfit. Since all the fans also want are name we decide not to give it out, rather we put are assignors number down on the sheet and tell them they can call him and get the info they want. They dont wish to go away and we have another game to go, so we tell them if they dont leave we will call the police. They finnaly leave. What else could we have done. Are assignor asked us to write a report, which we both did. Anthing else we should do?

Couple things.

Who cares if the other coach doesn't care if A1 plays, he's done. What do you teach A1 if you allow him to act like this and then allow him to play after you've DQ'd him?

Also, the coach mis-used the word "your" in his sentence. ;)

sorry about the spelling... You would have tossed A1 too right?

It seems that CYO is getting more agressive

Yup, scrub-a-dub-dub, it's shower time for A1.

The A coach needed a T early on. The purpose of a T is less to punish a coach than to modify his behavior. I appreciate your desire not to penalize kids for adults' behavior, but this guy's behavior needed to change, and you had the tool to change it.

The second T on him would have been a bit more difficult, since it would have meant a forfeit (since he's the only coach). But with one absolutely final warning (in which you point out he's the only coach and that a second T means a forfeit), that's gotta be called too.

And don't forget the T for playing the disqualified player. No excuse for him doing that.

I quit reading right there. Whatever happened after that, and I think that I'm safe in guessing that it wasn't very pretty, is your own fault, Pat.

Yoou don't want to penalize a team for a coach's behavior? Then I'd forget about officiating and become a social worker.

The procedure is:
1) warning.
2) technical foul if the warning is ignored.
3) another technical foul if unsporting behavior continues.

You were the author of your own misfortune. Sorry, but there it is.

JR's exactly right. You have to take care of business out there and you didn't.

I have to advise you to get tough. All the unsporting behavior that you allowed IS truly unbelievable to me.

As for your stating that you wouldn't change anything... Well, if you don't begin doing so, you will not enjoy officiating in the future.

Lastly, never ever allow a player who has been DQ'd back into a contest!

I don't do a lot of rec leagues/kids games anymore and one of the primary reasons is just having to deal with the ignorant crap that comes with some of these games. The games that I do work are in quality leagues where I know those who run the league put the kids first, and in well organized adult leagues that hold the participants to a code of conduct.

The problem with games at the elementary/middle school level is that by and large the coaches are some parent who has little to no clue. In bad cases, the coach attaches his ego to the game and/or starts duplicating what he thinks he sees on TV. Also, most officials at that level don't have the experience to properly deal with coaches, so by and large, the domineering coach overwhelms the officials and thinks it's his right to have free reign. At the higher levels of the game, the coach's livelihood is often invested in the outcome of games, so I personally take that into consideration when dealing with coaches, but at this level, the tolerance for any sort of garbage should be at zero, and whenever I do any of these games, that's where my tolerance level is at. A simple sarcastic comment or a disrespectful snicker or jesture is enough to warrant a T from me in a kids game, whereas the same behavior likely wouldn't even draw my attention in a higher level game.

In regards to your sitch PAT, in the 1st quarter, the constant chatter may have drawn a "not on every play coach," then an ABS technical. A1's first comment was a borderline flagrant T, and his second one clearly was. Coach's grandstanding to A1 also should've been a T and the 2nd comment at this level a flagrant T. That you let A1 continue playing and didn't T the coach is unbelievable. You completely lost control of the game early and the game just went further and further down the toilet. I know your heart is in the right place Pat in that you don't want to hurt the kids or decide the game with a technical, but in order to manage the game you have to demonstrate control, and sometimes the only way to do that is to call technicals before the game goes in the toilet because once it does it ain't coming back.

In regards to fonzzy's sitch, I think the whole practice of signing a scoresheet to end a game is absurd and I would refuse to do it. I have no problem signing the book, but to expect me to go to the scorers table immediately after the game is expecting too much. Too many things can happen to officials and we can be put into unnecessarily awkward situations by being at the table at the end of the game, right where the losing team is just aching to make a comment. I'm not afraid of anyone or anything, but there's no need to invite a potential conflict, or to invite unpleasant comments for nothing. Stay away from the teams after the game and you can avoid countless problems.

I agree with JR and Nevada... ya gotta take care of business.

From your description, it seems like not dealing with this howler monkey in the first quarter set the tone for the rest of the game. If he really was like it sounds like he was, I think you have to deal with this guy early. Quite possibly in the first 2 minutes of the game.

In the 3rd, A1's comments were correctly penalized with a Technical Foul. However, I do think it was preventable by dealing with everything earlier. A1's second comment is a Flagrant Technical Foul - and report it as such and write it up that way too.

Coach getting T'd. Possibly.

When A1 plays again, this is a Flagrant Technical Foul (by rule).

When you have a game like this, take the advice common here: get in, get done, get out. I wudda been outta there like a bat outta hell, and not give the coach a chance to be a moron.

Pat, you've been given some pretty good advise here. As someone stated, games like this will make you not enjoy officiating anymore. Which means; you have to make a decision regarding how you will handle your next game like this.

Step #1 - Don't do non-school games (or parochial school games). There is virtually no accountability or control involved with these games. People who pay tuition for their kid to attend these schools expect more control (return on their investment) of what happens in the games (playing time, winning). Therefore, the officials will be blamed more often than not for losses.


Step #2 - There is no step #2.

Thanks...

This was a little misleading...

After we discovered A1 was re-entered illegally, we sat him... Did not access the T since the opposing coach let it go...

The major problem (with my Tech assessment) is that I started officiating with baseball. So – no rabbit ears, let it go syndrome)… That is why I am a little gun shy with the T… The 2nd problem is that I worked for 3 years before I got associated in a local town rec league where a 2T’s was no suspension or further action… Coaches (as stated above) were parents who watched NBA and tried to reproduce what they were seeing…

Pat, as I was coming up through the referee ranks, I also gave coaches (and to a lesser degree players) more latitude than I should have. And I often paid for it either by having a game like you had or by having to use more punitive measures later in the game (hard to tell what might have happened if I HAD taken care of business). But I can tell you now that what everyone is saying above is absolutely true. Take care of business early and set the tone for the rest of the game.

It's your responsibility to enforce the rules...all of them (I think I read that somewhere...Rule 2, I think). If you let the players and coaches know early what will and will not be tolerated then everyone can get to the business at hand and a basketball game suddenly appears. Forget about the liability issues related to what might happen if the player you DQ'd had been allowed to play again and he ends up injuring another player. That's a whole other can of worms.

As you work the higher level games you will hopefully see that you do less and less teaching to the players and coaches as to what type of behavior is acceptable. But even now, from time to time, I still work lower level games (part of my attempt to give back to a game that has helped me so much) and I have to take care of business early when it comes to coaches. Depending on the level of play and whether it is a recreational or competitive league I try to help the kids as much as possible with verbal encouragement. And sometimes the tournament director will allow some latitude in how strictly you should call the rules. But your job is still to enforce these rules.

OK...getting down from my soapbox. Good topic...thanks for letting me participate.

your welcome :) ...

I just hated it since it was the last game of the season and I didn't want to end it on a "bad" note...

Should I have taken (T'ed) the coach earlier - YES... I know that (I knew that) but, I just thought if I ignored it, I would have gotten better...

It's a problem I see since I get no respect (RIP Rodney) since I’m the youngest official in my assc. (18)... I loved doing this when I was younger and decided to get carded because I wasn’t getting any respect… now this happens

Thanks for advice...

Check that!
 

Not since 2002-03. In 2003-04 the rule was changed making this a direct technical foul charged to the head coach. It is not flagrant, and is in no way charged to the team member.

Re: Check that!
 

Yup, you're right. Fergot 'bout that one. As Nevada said, it's a T to the coach. (Which might DQ him. :))

I'm also on board with JR.

You have to remember that you are not "Taking the game" from his players and his team - HE IS!

If he wants to act like an idiot, he must suffer the penalty. IT is then HIS fault his team forfeits.

I had a similar not as bad sitch this year 5th grade CYO {what is it about us Catholics?} Both coaches griping throughout the game. The parents are now into the same act. I go to both coaches between quarter and tell them to get their parents and personnel behavior under control or face a "T".

One coach is a guy who I'd had before and gave him too much leash. The other gets my warning as I say, "I don't want to hear another word from your bench" 60 seconds later I T the assistant. Now the blabbermouth both shut up.

Lesson I learned - whent they deserve the "T", give it to them. It will save you trouble down the line.

Your being young can also work against you in this sitch.

You might even need to give out the "T" earlier just to get their attention. If they don't learn after the first, shame on them and adios.

I mentored a high school student/official the past couple years and she has gotten that respect from giving a technical when necessary (Not just willy nilly) and being professional. She got carded at 16 and most coaches thought she was a college student my her demeanor.

As a side note, my middle son (15) is a licensed volleyball official. Much less problems with ejections in that sport.

Thanks....
 

Here in NJ you need to be 18 to be carded...

I know I should have "gotten" the coach but again I didn't want to be "THE REF WHO FORFITED THE 3rd PLACE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME..." this was my first year in the league and I plan to be with them for a while

Thanks again.

Re: Thanks....
 

I would not worry about this. The coach and fans can think what they want, but if you have to call a T, it's because of their actions and not yours. With experience comes more confidence in these situations. Like most have said, you probably should have gotten him earlier. It's pretty obvious how much emphasis he's putting on sportsmanship since you have players popping off from the bench. Don't let this idiot shake your confidence. Call your game, take care of him if you have to, but don't ever think you cost a team a game.

Thanks

No one mentioned this but the coach should have received an indirect technical foul for A1's actions because A1 is now a bench player. This would have forced the coach to sit the rest of the game and that usually helps keep the coach under control.

Hmmm.... please explain.

IIRC, A1 was T'd for saying the ref sucks. A1 was later T'd for telling the ref to die. Now he is DQ'd.

Are you saying that a direct T to A1 and an indirect to the coach was warranted because of the "die" comment?

No I was saying the coach should have an indirect because A1 became a bench player when his sub was beckoned in the game.
I'm assuming that a sub was beckoned on the court to replace A1 because A1 had left the court for a substitution.

Does anyone consider, "Ref, you should just die" flagrant? I'd be tempted to toss a guy for this statement. Luckily I've never had to make that choice.

Ok, good. Funny, I assumed there was no beckoning as it was not mentioned. :D But I do agree with your statement that once A3 is beckoned, A1 is BP, and is an indirect to the HC.

If your dog craps on the living room rug and you ignore it, will the smell go away? Will the sight of it make you any less angry with the dog? Or will you punish the dog and clean up the crap on the rug before unexpected company arrives? {And just for the fun of it--let's suppose your dog's name is DUKE.]:D

that coach is a disgrace
 

and the really sad thing is there's far too many coaches just like him. Guys like this really shouldn't be coaching kids. I wouldn't let my kid play for him unless this example was something that only happened 1 time. I often wonder what these guys think they are teaching the kids who play for them when they behave past the line of respectability.

Basketball is a temporary thing (unless you coach or Ref), and a players career is brief. Personally, I don't even see the point in coaching youth, or HS age kids unless you use that perfect opportunity to teach the kids "life skills" along the way. This coach may be able to get talented kids to play well, but he's obviously completely whiffing at any attempt to teach his players about humility, and accepting responsibility, and losing with dignity.

I've only been coaching 5 years, but I've yet to see a call, or number of calls, cost us a game. Even when we lost, and I did believe there were "bad calls" I always tell my team, "we got beat by ______ ________, not by the Refs.

I was never so surprised at what people around me are capable of believing of others who they don't even know, until I started coaching and know what some coaches say about, and think about Refs.

bbcoach7 WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!!!!!!

Are there any more coaches like you in your area? :) I wish more coaches had your class and understanding of what youth basketball!!

a T
 

when i started reffing at 18 -- about 8 years ago -- was a weapon to me. Almost like in the wild west.

However as i gained experience i started to learn about 5-6 years ago that its actually a tool -- not meant to inflict damage or pain but to be used to control a situtaion that might garner such a call.

What I am about to say is how i would handle non HS or camp games...

I give coaches in these situations more leeways regarding administration things like the coaches box and where they might huddle during timeouts and what not because they dont know any better. However i give coaches much less slack for how they address me. Once, as JR puts it, this Howler Monkey starts howling he's only going to get one "coach you keep on this path and IT WILL cost you" -- i can guarantee this numbskull will say something to test me and I will guarantee he will fail.

Now I will tell him unless its a timeout he better not get out of his chair. If hes really that dense he will get to finish the game but thats 50/50 -- also at this level I would be rather hesitant to forfeit the game because hes the only coach simply because I dont think its fair to the kids (other will disagree but once again i approach this differently than HS).

Secondly at this level and age what that kid said would get the good ol heave ho from me -- when i coach a kid so much as says anything even remotly wise to a ref or other player is benched the rest of the game -- so hes done. His next comment about Dying will get the HC a T -- now this is most likely his second one so hes done. If a parent wants to sit in as coach i tell the parent if i have to address him once because of behavior the game is over.

Now if coaches want to emulate the NBA what they need to be doing is holding press conferences, slapping players, throwing chairs, maybe even making millions of dollars a year. But in no way am I going to allow ANY coach to emulate an NBA coach and how he handles an NBA ref when he is upset -- at any level.

After reading this on page one, I'm surprised this thread goes on any further. This says it all. I totally agree, JR.