Yelling

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Once again, the middle of the court is dual area.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I think there is a definite T area, and a definite C area. There might be those rare instances where a player might end up "on the line", so to speak, between those areas, and you might end up with two sets of eyes on the ball. Some people might call that a dual coverage area. But I don't think it's as large as "the middle of the court".

It still comes down to primary areas. The official whose primary the shot comes from should signal the attempt. This tells your partner(s) that you have the shooter, and they can now watch for the made basket, rebounding action, etc. I don't think it's much different than a double whistle on a foul - if it's in my partner's primary, I drop it and let them take it. If I signal a 3-point attempt that's in my partner's primary, I'll drop the attempt and watch off-ball. If it's made, I'll mirror the made basket.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


What are you disagreeing with? That 1 official should stay with the shooter & the other official go with the shot for BI/GT and rebounding?

Or you just saying it's not a problem to have 6 fingers in the air?

If that's the case how do you know who has the shooter?

I do not recall that Z was talking about who should have BI/GT call. I think the point he made was one of the officials should drop his/her hand on a 3 point attempt because the shoot took place in the middle of the floor. I think that is not required or does not make since. If I am the C and the ball handler started totally in my area and shot the ball in the middle, I am not leaving the shooter just to watch rebounding or GT/BI calls. If I am the T in that situation, I might still go up with the shoot attempt but realize that the C saw the entire play.

I think we have gotten too worried about primary areas too much and we forget who is watching the play. I might be the T and not know the player just came into my area because of what I was watching off-ball. To say the C should drop their arm is not very realistic if you ask me.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Ahem...getting us back on topic before some "esteemed members" start complaining...I had a situation just a few weeks ago - conference playoff game, I notice visiting coach in my partner's ear while we are shooting free throws. 2nd shot made, and V coach call a time-out...partner reports it to table, and then turns and walks directly to me and says "Coach ____ wants me to tell you to lose your ego tonight." I looked at him for a few seconds, ask "Are you serious? That's what that conversation was about - me having an ego?" He said "Yes" so I turned and walked away...in the locker room after the game, we had a little discussion about crew integrity and not letting a coach blast your partner, but he didn't get it. I was quite proud of myself for NOT yelling or losing my temper...the evaluator/observer who was there, however, lit the guy up when he heard what had happened.!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not recall that Z was talking about who should have BI/GT call. I think the point he made was one of the officials should drop his/her hand on a 3 point attempt because the shoot took place in the middle of the floor.

The point *I'm* making is if both officials have their arm in the air how do you know which one takes the shooter & which 1 takes the shot.

One method is simple. The guy who reached into his secondary puts his arm down & takes the shot. When he puts his arm down he's communicated to the other official what his intent is.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Ahem...getting us back on topic before some "esteemed members" start complaining...I had a situation just a few weeks ago - conference playoff game

3rd quarter, Girls district play-off, I'm the C and I call a travel in T's primary (I had no business blowing my whistle). Luckily 'T' is a friend of mine and I joke it off at the end of the quarter by saying I was making up for the double-dribble he called in the 1st half in my primary(actually a great call on his part, he was lead looking back on press-break and I was straight-lined).

Guess if I had been working with tomegun there would have been one of those "WTF" yelling matches in the locker room. Just f'ing with you tome.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

The point *I'm* making is if both officials have their arm in the air how do you know which one takes the shooter & which 1 takes the shot.

One method is simple. The guy who reached into his secondary puts his arm down & takes the shot. When he puts his arm down he's communicated to the other official what his intent is.

Where did the ball originate from? I know if I am the C, I am not leaving the ball just because the ball is in my partner's area. I am sticking with the ball until I am sure my partner picked up the ball. I really do not see this as a big deal or hard to do. I just pointed out that both officials can signal a 3 point shot based on the written mechanics and usual practices that I have worked under. If you cannot handle doing that, do what works for you. The mechanics books do not say that the middle of the lane at the top of the key is it is just one official or the other. It says both C and T can both rule on a 3 point shot. I was not trying to debate all the possibilities that can happen. I just wanted those to know what the books actually say.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Where did the ball originate from? I know if I am the C, I am not leaving the ball just because the ball is in my partner's area.

That's because you both have your hand up signalling the 3 pt try.

Anyway, let's just disagree & leave it at that.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Anyway, let's just disagree & leave it at that.

I did this long time ago.

Peace

[rpirtle]

Never been yelled at...thank goodness. But I've been talked to very sternly several times at camps in the past. And it never even occurred to me that it might be in the vicinity of "OK" for me to yell at someone else. As many have already said in different ways, I can't think of a more unprofessional way to handle things. First take care of the business at hand...the game. Then iron out your personal differences on your own time. Definitely a different mind set from anything I've come in contact with...

[jeffpea]

I had a game where the home team was making a run under 3:00 left to tie the game.....during a fast-break I was L and A1 dropped a sweet pass to A4 who caught it and dunked it w/out dribbling - cut it to 1pt game, crowd went nuts. Unfortunately C waved it off for traveling - I literally said to myself - "you're f-ing kidding me!". I thought it was terrible; trying not to sell out my partner, I told Coach A that he had :30 to say whatever he wanted to me without penalty (during the timeout that immediately followed). He vented - I said "you're still in the game - don't let that one call bother you - let's play".

After the game, T asked C what he saw. C said he thought it was a travel - T claimed he was straightlined, I said nothing (it was bad enough that I thought the supervisor might get a call after the game...). As T and I got into the car after the game - we BOTH agreed it was a horrible call and we were shocked that he called it.

I guess the moral of the story is that you have to handle judgement calls and mechanics/rules breakdowns differently. If a dual-area call is made that is bad judgement, you can ask about what the calling official saw - but you can't jump him for it - it's his judgement (however bad it is). If it's a mechanics/rules issue, then I think you can be more forceful about addressing it. I don't think yelling does anything to solve or stop the situation from occuring again - you've got to find a way to either survive the remainder of the game or agree how you're going to handle the situation the next time it occurs (if in fact you work with that same person again).

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

I told Coach A that he had :30 to say whatever he wanted to me without penalty

Wow, I don't think that is how I would handle the situation but to each man his own.

Originally Posted by jeffpea

C said he thought it was a travel - T claimed he was straightlined, I said nothing.

I would have told him that I didn't see a travel and that next time it should probably be a "I'm 100% sure it was a travel" and not a "thought it was". BUT, it all depends on if he is a senior D1 official or a brand new JV official on how the situation is handled.

[tomegun]

All at the same time, I don't have much to say about this and I have a lot to say about this.

I often get the feeling that we think we can do no wrong. The things that are my pet peeves are:

1. The non-calling official having a close, personal, lengthy conversation with a coach after another official gives them a T. I don't have to be close to a coach to say, "You must remain seated..." and in college they can just simmer for a while. IMO, it is not my job to explain what my fellow official called. Many times, it is obvious and going to the coach is just to lend an ear. A coach doesn't get my ear when he gets a T; I will listen to him all game during other situations.
2. Lead calling across the paint on normal, ordinary, garden-variety drives from the C's side which often result in a double whistle. IMO, the L might as well broadcast, "I'm watching the ball."
3. Calls that are reaching and aren't made to save the crew. I was in a playoff game this season (two man) and my partner called traveling from the trail on a play that was literally about a foot from the endline and outside the paint on my side of the basket. In other words, two normal steps and I could have smacked both players upside the head!
4. Officials who have "bad" game awareness. I know you are probably saying, "What the heck is that?" Team A is coming back from being behind by 20 and an official changes the way the game has been called up to this point by making a call or a no-call. IMO, that official has just been swept into the emotion of the game and that "bad" game awareness is bad for the game.

By the way, I did yell at my fellow official about one of these "peeves" this year, but it was my buddy. He yelled back at me, like we often do, and we worked the second half. One thing I take pride in is that I don't think other officials do a when they are working with me. I always want to put the crew first, for the good of the game, and I don't ever big-time anyone.

I think we could all do the game a favor and be honest with each other. We have to be accepting though. I thought everything was OK with my season until I saw the tape of my last high school game in high definition. I didn't necessarily like all of my movement. I have to "go into the lab" and re-invent the wheel. I will never be satisfied until I reach perfection. So, I will never be satisfied until I quit.

Yelling at someone is far from the worst thing I've done in a basketball game. It happened years ago, but I will share if anyone is interested. It isn't something I'm proud of, but it happened and I moved on a long time ago.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I thought everything was OK with my season until I saw the tape of my last high school game in high definition.

Who was playing? I saw a high school game on INHD the other day and was wondering if this is possibly what you are talking about.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1. The non-calling official having a close, personal, lengthy conversation with a coach after another official gives them a T. I don't have to be close to a coach to say, "You must remain seated..." and in college they can just simmer for a while. IMO, it is not my job to explain what my fellow official called. Many times, it is obvious and going to the coach is just to lend an ear. A coach doesn't get my ear when he gets a T; I will listen to him all game during other situations.

I have a problem with the assumption that your partner is explaining your T if he is communicating with the coach at this point. You have no idea what's being said. As stated many times in this forum, a 'T' is just another foul, so it shouldn't change the basic interaction with the coach. S/He has received his/her penalty, so it should be business as usual from that point.

I personally don't care what my partner(s) says to a coach. That's something I've never concerned myself with. Even if my partner is selling me out lock, stock, and barrel, it has no affect at all in how I continue to call the game nor will it affect how I interact with the coaches.

To piggy back on your "seeing yourself on tape" statement. There is definitely nothing like seeing yourself on a TV screen to reduce the swelling of one's head. I was fortunate to officiate a scrimmage at a D1 college before the season started and they provided the officials with DVD's of the game. I then had an early season HS game broadcast on the local ED channel. So I was able to do my fine-tuning early in the season.

[brianp134]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Yelling at someone is far from the worst thing I've done in a basketball game. It happened years ago, but I will share if anyone is interested. It isn't something I'm proud of, but it happened and I moved on a long time ago.

Share with me what you did. I gotta know.