Clock fails to start (edited for clarity)

[assignmentmaker]

I am still looking for answers to the questions I raised in an earlier thread. It may have become hard to read, so I am restarting it with (hopefully) better focus.

The SITUATION is this: Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout with 4 seconds remaining in the game. Play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt. A2 dribbles quickly up the court, through pressure, and makes a layup just before the horn goes off. Ball goes in, Team A wins.

This really happened this week. It was apparent to most everyone but, apparently, the officials, that the clock did not start for several seconds after the ball was caught by A2. (While 'get a better timer' is a valid answer, it is not what I'm looking for.)

Rule 5, by itself, does not, as far as I can tell, address this specific situation, this order of events.

Of the 6 Casebook plays in 'Timing Mistakes and Corrections', only 5.10.2 directly addresses failure of the clock to start properly, and then only when the error is addressed with the clock stopped because of a foul. In brief, the ruling says that, if one of the officials has definite knowledge of how much time ran off (e.g., a closely-guarded count was underway), the referee is empowered to take that amount of time off the clock.


Question 1: What were the officials options (under FED rules) assuming the officials became aware the clock had not started while the ball was in play but before the shot?

Note: 5-10-1 says " . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved." This would appear to authorize the referee to stop the game, even with the ball alive and the clock running. In the scenario I have presented, however, doing so before the final shot by Team A would require Team A to inbounds the ball, a substantial, but perhaps unavoidable, harm. (Using this rule as justification has at least the complication that the rule references the 'referee' and not 'an official' - what if an umpire is the official with the count and the view of the clock?)

Question 2:: What were their options (under FED rules) assuming the officials became aware that there had been a delay in starting the clock while:

(a) the shot was in the air and the horn had not yet sounded, or

(b) the shot was in the air and the horn had sounded, or

(c) the shot had gone through the basket and the horn had not yet sounded,

(d) the shot had gone through the basket and the horn had sounded

Note: rolling back the game appears to be almost universally frowned on in the rules when the clock is running. One exception that comes to mind is 10.1.8, the 'Specific Unsporting Act' of improperly making a throw-in after a made basket and scoring again. Other than this, can a goal ever be cancelled, except for an 'elbow' or a 'leaving the court deliberately' violation by the offense, and by goaltending or basket interference by the offense?


[Edited by assignmentmaker on Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:10 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Edited for clarity?

What was the pre-edited version? A novel?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
I am still looking for answers to the questions I raised in an earlier thread. It may have become hard to read, so I am restarting it with (hopefully) better focus.

The SITUATION is this: Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout with 4 seconds remaining in the game. Play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt.

The simple answer: during the timeout someone needs to remind the crew to monitor the clock. Then, someone needs to go remind the timer to start the clock exactly when time is chopped in.

See? Issue averted, no need to ponder the vagueness of life, the universe & everything.

[bob jenkins]

I agree with the other answers related to preventing the problem.

If the official noticed that the clock didn't start, stop play, run off the time (assuming there was a count) and resume.

It's not "allowed" but the "fairest" answer might be the "do-over" -- if it's noticed early enough.

Or, the official can yell (so others hear it), "Clock -- I've got a count" -- and count the four seconds.

If none of that happened, then, if the officials had a count, use it. IF the officials didn't have a count, then they have to go by the clock / horn.

[SmokeEater]

I agree with Bob. Unless someone has a count from the backcourt and definate knowledge the clock didn't start, tehn you go with the horn and basket counts. Hey thats a deja vue. I think I read that before.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I agree with the other answers related to preventing the problem.

If the official noticed that the clock didn't start, stop play, run off the time (assuming there was a count) and resume.

It's not "allowed" but the "fairest" answer might be the "do-over" -- if it's noticed early enough.

Or, the official can yell (so others hear it), "Clock -- I've got a count" -- and count the four seconds.

If none of that happened, then, if the officials had a count, use it. IF the officials didn't have a count, then they have to go by the clock / horn.

"If none of that happened, then, if the officials had a count, use it. IF the officials didn't have a count, then they have to go by the clock / horn."

In other words, the use of a 'count' in lieu of the clock is valid only if applied in real time? It can't be applied after the fact . . .

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
"If none of that happened, then, if the officials had a count, use it. IF the officials didn't have a count, then they have to go by the clock / horn."

In other words, the use of a 'count' in lieu of the clock is valid only if applied in real time? It can't be applied after the fact . . .

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but, the official can't (legally) say "that seemed like longer than 4 seconds" and wave off the basket.

An official other than the trail can have a count -- it's a good idea for at least one official to have a count. The officials can get together after the horn and discuss this -- if one official has a count and is sure the basket came after the period should have ended, that count can be used.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but, the official can't (legally) say "that seemed like longer than 4 seconds" and wave off the basket.

An official other than the trail can have a count -- it's a good idea for at least one official to have a count. The officials can get together after the horn and discuss this -- if one official has a count and is sure the basket came after the period should have ended, that count can be used.

Would you say that the rules basis for cancelling a score is located in 5-10-2, in the word 'correction'?

If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.