Where Professionalism Ends.....????

[Man In Blue]

You have to call the game off at this point. Once that official shoves back- it's over. Besides you can't expect the partner to work alone.

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by bebanovich
I can't speak to this specifically from an official's point-of-view, but self-defense applies only if there is a reasonable fear of immediate danger. It would be hard to argue that pushing back would be the logical act of someone who felt like they were really under threat.

For what it is worth -- basically, in case anyone is coming to this forum looking for legal advice -- bebanovich's statement is simply wrong. Self defense would apply quite nicely to the circumstances described were the official to face any kind of legal action.

But while this official should be able to avoid criminal/legal penalty, I do think that he should receive discipline for his behavior from the appropriate overseeing body.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bgtg19

For what it is worth -- basically, in case anyone is coming to this forum looking for legal advice -- bebanovich's statement is simply wrong. Self defense would apply quite nicely to the circumstances described were the official to face any kind of legal action.

But while this official should be able to avoid criminal/legal penalty, I do think that he should receive discipline for his behavior from the appropriate overseeing body.

If you are correct that the official was justified in pushing the coach back under the law why should he face disciplinary action? IOW, why should he be punished for a genuine act of self defense?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by bgtg19

For what it is worth -- basically, in case anyone is coming to this forum looking for legal advice -- bebanovich's statement is simply wrong. Self defense would apply quite nicely to the circumstances described were the official to face any kind of legal action.

But while this official should be able to avoid criminal/legal penalty, I do think that he should receive discipline for his behavior from the appropriate overseeing body.

Which is wrong?
Self-defense requires fear of immediate danger?
Shoving back would be hard to argue as self-defense?

I don't mind being corrected or called wrong, I just don't want to be called wrong on the implication that I'm saying something I'm not, like, "this ain't a case of self-defense" I wasn't there, I didn't see it so I wouldn't know if the official could successfully argue self-defense.

[rockyroad]

I'm not a lawyer (thank God) and I don't even act like one, so I can't speak to the legalities of what happened. I can tell a brief story from our area...summer league, HS Varsity boys with their regular coaches...coach charges official after foul call and pushes official. Official attempts to walk away...coach grabs official from behind...official (who ia a some-degree-or-other black belt) proceeds to take coach down and temporarily incapacitate coach...police called...coach arrested...ultimately coach found guilty of misdemeanor assault, forced to resign position as coach, and ended up with some kind of probation/community service. Official - congatulated by judge on his calm handling of a potentially dangerous situation.

The difference is that the official attempted to walk away and was attacked again...I don't think the official in the OP can claim that...because he pushed back, he should receive some kind of disciplinary action from the association...and then all his buddies should take him out for a few of JR's "brown-pops"...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad

The difference is that the official attempted to walk away and was attacked again...I don't think the official in the OP can claim that...because he pushed back, he should receive some kind of disciplinary action from the association

It depends on the details of the "push-back" imo.

Normally if you're pushed, you would usually be physically moved away from the pusher. To have a return push, I think that one of the parties has to then close that gap between them again. If the official moved towards the guy that pushed him, and then pushed him back, that could probably be called retaliation. If the original pusher moved towards the official he pushed, and that official then pushed him away, then that's simply protecting himself, I'd say.

Sound reasonable?

[deecee]

that an officical got punched but just took and and only assessed a T because he didnt want to protect himself for fear of being suspended...

also heard that during a game a coach started shooting at a ref but he only assessed a bench T because he didnt see the coach do it and the ref who also carries a gun at all times didnt pull his because he didnt want to appear unprofessional...

those both arent true but come one guys if a coach were to push me -- and ive actually thought about this -- i would love to plant one across his noggin, but i probably wont do that, however I think I might react in a similar way and shove back -- im not gonna turn my back on a coach thats that irate and let him land one on me I am going to let it be clear to him that I will protect myself. Also in a HS game where the head coach does something like this -- I am very likely to call a DQ on the offending team.

[JCrow]

Refs should live by John's Wayne's creed in the "Shootist".

John Bernard Books (The Shootist):
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."

I loved that movie........now, Richard Boone in that movie is what I mentally imagine that Jurassic Ref looks like.

[JRutledge]

I love the self righteousness that comes out on this board. I love guys who say someone has pushed you and we are all supposed to just turn the other cheek and walk away.

All anyone has to do is watch an afternoon court program and you will find that this action as described is clearly self-defense. If someone comes and attacks you with a certain kind of force, you have the right to defend yourself with similar force. The official did not pull out a gun and shoot the coach, he simply pushed him back. Which by the way we do not know if the coach kept coming at the official and the official felt threatened and finally pushed the coach. If the coach pushed the official and started to back up I can understand not having a reaction. If the coach pushed the official and kept coming, I see nothing wrong with that official getting that coach out of their face. It is not about professionalism at this point, it is about self-preservation. It is not my job to take an *** whoppin because someone might think it is unprofessional. I would never advocate a suspension of an official that is attacked and response with a similar action. I am not getting paid thousands of dollars to work these games. Of course where I am working will be a factor on some level because some places have very good security and other places do not. I am not getting paid enough to just sit back and hope I have security to protect me.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

It depends on the details of the "push-back" imo.

Normally if you're pushed, you would usually be physically moved away from the pusher. To have a return push, I think that one of the parties has to then close that gap between them again. If the official moved towards the guy that pushed him, and then pushed him back, that could probably be called retaliation. If the original pusher moved towards the official he pushed, and that official then pushed him away, then that's simply protecting himself, I'd say.

Sound reasonable?

Sounds more than reasonable, which is why I question that the original sitch (coach push, ref push back) is an act of self defense. IMO it's not, it's what we call a shoving match. Maybe a lawyer could get you off, but almost certainly you're gonna need a lawyer.

IMO Rocky's example gives the correct way to handle this type of attack by an emotional coach - de-escalate & give him an opportunity to calm himself down. Whether you actually turn & walk away depends on how comfortable you are having to defend yourself, I'm sure Rocky's friend was half hoping the coach would take another run at him.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
If the coach pushed the official and started to back up I can understand not having a reaction. If the coach pushed the official and kept coming, I see nothing wrong with that official getting that coach out of their face.

This I agree with. But the way I read the OP's post is that the coach shoved & backed off. Why? Because if I shove you & keep walking towards you to attack again you're probably going to end up on your @ss. Or at least not in a position to shove back. And certainly not in a position for someone else to get between us.

Sounds like a simple playground shoving match to me.

[rainmaker]

I've got the solution, plain and simple. When a coach came out onto the floor and chested me up, I just blew the whistle in his ear. Good and loud. He physically cringed, and I "got away", I didn't have to "defend" myself, and no lawyer needed. Those Fox 40's are great!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I've got the solution, plain and simple. When a coach came out onto the floor and chested me up, I just blew the whistle in his ear. Good and loud. He physically cringed, and I "got away", I didn't have to "defend" myself, and no lawyer needed. Those Fox 40's are great!

C'mon, where's the fun in that??!

Seriously, that does sound like quick thinking & a good defense. He was literally in your face & you deafened him?

More details please!

[JCrow]

Juulie,

I agree. That "chesting up" incident peeked my interest in this Post!

One night years ago, Cheryl Miller was doing the color at an NBA Game that was attended by Densel Washington. All the announcers were commenting about how handsome he was. Cheryl said,

"He could POST me up anytime."

She is a heck of lot funnier than Billy Packer or "Yeah Baby".

[Stan]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think, unfortunately, that you have to suspend the official. Just as coaches should never be allowed to touch the ref in anger, the ref should never be allowed to touch the coach in anger.

The closest I've come to this situation was last summer at camp when I stepped between an angry coach and the ref he wanted to strangle. He was a good 150 pounds heavier than I was and I had my hands on his chest, trying to keep him away from my partner.

After the game, a clinician (who did not see the incident) told me never to touch the coach. Get out of his way. If you touch him, he can claim anything afterwards.

Hindsight being 20/20, would you do this again?