I had a situation in a summer league I'd like to throw out there for some comments. Late in the game, team A up by a few points, obvious fouling situation. On a missed free throw by A, A1 gets rebound, I am screened by other rebounders, my partner evidently did not see B1 reach in, but I hear the slap on A1's arm/hand, which could have been committed by anyone on team B. Is it right to blow the whistle and call the foul, or do we really need to see it? I did blow the whistle and just assessed the foul to the team B player of my choice. Any thoughts???

In baseball, I watch for the runner tag first and listen for the ball to hit the mitt. But in basketball, if I don't see it, I don't call it. ;)

Isn't the old adage "You can't call what you can't see?"

Good words to live by, and I would attribute it to someone, but I would just get corrected.

Pass on the call, unless you know for 100% certainty who comitted the crime.

This is one situation where I would blow my whistle without actually seeing the play. Everybody but you knows a foul was committed and Team B wants the clock stopped anyway, so arguments are unlikely. As for who gets the foul...watch the players and pick the one who looks the most guilty.

A review of positioning on free throws might be necessary too...how could you both miss it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffRef
[B]Jeff, thanks for your input, all comments are appreciated. I was screened by the other rebounders, and am unaware of my partners intentions.

If you start calling things you can't see....
 

the pregame wasn't long enough!!!!

Haven't you ever had the situation where A1 is shooting and defender B1 claps his hands together? I have, quite a few times, I might add. If I am straightlined and my partner is watching his area, according to the logic of some of you, I should call this a foul on B1.

No way. If I don't see it, I don't call it. Remember the old adage: if it might of been a foul, it wasn't - if it might have been traveling, it wasn't, etc.

I still disagree!

In this particular case Team B is trying to stop the clock. If the slap on the arm isn't called, what will he do next...grab A1? push A1? Both of these lead to other problems.

So, in this situation I blow the whistle knowing I won't get any grief from anybody. If I don't blow, there may be a confrontation between players and I've got the coach screaming "what do we have to do to stop clock?"

I dunno. Maybe I'm just imagining the play differenty than the rest of you, but I'll stick with my call. :)

OK, you're taking an overall "game management" point of
view. I like that. So how about this: you call the foul
on B1, but everyone in the gym except you & your partner
sees that B2 is the slapper. You report B1, the scorekeeper
says "that's his fifth". Now the fun starts! I'm gonna
ignore the case where B2 didn't slap but merely clapped
his hands because you seem a little sensitive today, what
with all this metric-bashing and all. :)

You gotta be kidding!
 

I agree wholeheartedly (that's a metric heart by the way). How can you call a foul by sound? It is possible that rather than what you call

1. B1 clapped his hands
2. B1 caused contact with another player on his own team
3. It was B2 that caused the contact
4. It was the noise of A1 hitting his own hand on the rebound
5. B1 trying to foul, missing and hitting himself
6. Or any other variation of things

I don't understand how anybody can diferentiate between these noises, and therfore call the foul. I was always taught that <b>if the referee didn't see it, it didn't happen.</b>

I'm sorry, but as soon as you start calling stuff by sound, you add ammunition to the "three-blind-mice" tag that refs have. Maybe next game you can take the guide dog out, and he can point out offending players? Maybe by licking them?

No...here's an idea, take a white stick, blow the whistle for a foul, spin around with the stick in your hand, and the first player it touches gets the foul!

With good game management, I just don't see myself picking
the wrong player if everyone in the gym knows the guilty party.

But...keeping with the scenario I imagine I would do this:

I report B1 and everybody goes nuts cause I got the wrong guy! No big deal. I huddle with my partner(s) and say "Oops, I tanked that one, obviously the foul was on B2 and I made a reporting error (wink, wink!).

With the crew all on the same page, I correct my "reporting error" and assess the foul to B2. Everybody's happy but coach A. But he has no gripe cause it's the right call...I just reported it wrong and that's an easy sell.

As for the metric thing, nobody has responded to my request in the other thread yet. Maybe because the calculations are too difficult! ;)

Now your saying that the crowd can have an influence on what (and how) you call. This goes against everything I hav eever been taught.

One way to look at this question is: What would <b>your</b> reaction be, if a referee told you (as a coach or player) that he didn't actuall see the contact, and called a foul by sound.

I reckon that this would p off 99% of people, even if the call was right. The whole concept of refereeing is that you watch the game, and call only what you see.

I still believe that there is just way too much margin for error in this one.

There is an obvious one everyone has missed here.

When a player gets a good clear smack at the ball, it can/does sound like a smack on the arm.

There should be no reason to call a foul you did not see. The only thing worse is wacking B's coach for arguing the call.

This situation is why one of my pregame topics is players on the floor. Someone on the crew better damn well know how they got there.

OK, this is getting good. At the sound of skin on skin
you call the foul on B1 (poor guy did nothing to deserve
it). Report the foul, table holds up 5 fingers. Coach B
has a stroke. We huddle & you change the foul to B2.
Coach A has a stroke. You're really good so Coach A,
Coach B, B1 & B2 all escape without a T. Finally, Coach A
in frustration asks me "Dan, how could you let him do this
to me????!!" My answer: "Don't bother me now coach, I'm
trying to remember how many feet in a mile!" :p

How do you know he wasn't hit on the hand?

Wow! This has sparked a lot of interest. Where do I start?

I'm still sticking to my guns and blowing my whistle IN THIS SITUATION!!!! I'm not in the habit of calling things I do not see. My mentor teaches me to make decisions that that allow the game to run as smoothly as possible. In this scenario team B will be trying to stop the clock. Understanding what team B wants to accomplish, I blow my whistle. B1 was reaching in and then there was the sound of an arm being slapped (from original post). So everyone in the gym is expecting a whistle, so I blow. Nobody is surprised! We go shoot the free throws and move on (smooth as possible).

Dan, you provided a scenario that I felt was unlikely but I responded to it anyway. It's always fun to put yourself in odd situations.

So I'll provide an equally unlikely scenario...

The slapping sound was B1 on A1's arm. Refs don't see it and no whistle. B1 then, to try to get a whistle, wraps his arms around A1. A1 throws an elbow into B1's chin and then B2 clocks A1. You and your partner(s) finally restore order and assess all the penalties. Coach B says "all you had to do was blow your whistle on the slap and we could have avoided this". Meanwhile your partner is talking to Coach A who is saying "my best player is now out of the game cause you and partner(s) were sucking on your whistles".

What can you say to defend the crew? "Sorry coaches, we can't call what we can't see???".

This isn't just for Dan, it's for anyone who wouldn't blow their whistle in this situation.

What it boils down to for me is I feel, in this situation, more bad than good will result if a whistle is not blown.

Although you make a valid point, I am not sure I agree. B1 swings his arm trying to foul and you hear a slap. With the ref being not being able to see it ask yourself this...
-Was it B1 slapping A?
-Did B swing, miss, and hit B2?
-Did B swat and hit himself?
-Did B swat and hit ONLY A's hand that is on the ball?
-Did B slap the ball?
-Where was the ball? because if it was away and then a foul then it becomes intentional by definition.
-3 of the best players on the floor have 4 fouls, they were all near the play along with 2 others. Foul out the wrong guy everybody on team B is mad, Guess on the wrong guy team A is mad because they thought one of the starters should be gone.

And here is the biggest question of all....

-At the time of the foul how do you his partner actually saw the play and it was something he/she passed on because he/she saw the whole play and it was one of this situations described above?

I have been on the floor too many times where I saw the play clearly and my partner thought he heard something and blew the whistle and it was nothing and 75% of the fans saw it too and knew he just made it up based on the sound.

In this situation that has been desribed How would he know his partner did not see it until after the game. I know they did not blow their whistle and come togteher and say " I heard a slap did you see the foul? No I didnot see it, so is this whistle inadvertent? or do we give the kid a foul?"
I will make an assumption, the only way he knew his partner did not see it was ask after the game.


If there were video at the game which one is worse if someone reviewed it; missing the slap foul while the offender is surrounded by 4 defenders and 3 offensive players in a nice little scrum or making something up that wasnt there? THAT YOU WOULDNOT KNOW YOUR PARTNER DIDNT SEE UNTIL AFTER THE GAME. You only have one choice let it go!

I'll agree that all of these scenarios are fairly unlikely,
but it's thinking about these things that improve us.
To answer your question , this is EXACTLY what I would say
to both coach A & B. Try as we might, we can't see
everything that happens. But I will not make things up.
As for the end-of-game-quick-foul problem, if it ain't a
foul in the first 2 minutes it ain't a foul in the last 2
minutes. If I didn't see it it ain't a foul.

I have guessed the big-swinging-hand-sound twice, and both times the sound was the ball.
"Sorry coach, we can't guess a sound." :o

You say, "Coach add money to the budget so we can have three officials."

A foul is based on contact. Contact between two objects is only accurately checked by the sense of sight.

Coaches, players, and fans need to deal with the fact that they don't always get what they want. If team B truly wants a foul to stop the clock, make it obvious, and my arms will obviously swing up into an X over my head. (Of course, this brings up a whole 'nother thread.)

Although I still disagree with calling a foul you don't see, if you are going to call it in this situation, by your own description, you must call it intentional. You say B was trying to stop the clock and that you used your psychic powers to determine that B1 just slapped A1 on the arm. Doesn't sound (pun intended) like he was going for the ball.

If you don't see it don't call it, as said before it could have been clapping or a legal hit of the hand or even the ball that got hit. But if you are going for the game management angle how about this you and your partner should have been in position to make this call since one team was going to foul extra attention should have been on the ball handler to protect him.

Where've you been Paul?

Ive been to 4 camps in the last 8 weeks I am really sore
as the last 2 were back to back.....

Wow!!!!
 

PAULK1,
U be lookin' good on the hardwood then, yo?
mick

Tryin hard not to look like a fool when I step out on the floor.....