Disrespected by Head Official

[NothernVA_Ump]

This past weekend I was doing a playoff game for a house league 9 y/o boys. The leauge has speical developmental rules (ie. no backcourt defense until the last minute of the game, ect). For some reason the head of the entire house leauge is the scorekeeper for this game. The first half of the game was alot of sloppy play (but for 9 year olds it was high intensity). There was alot of contact mostly team mates running into team mates. Throughout the first half White's Coach was yelling for fouls. I ignored him. During a time out the Assistant comes over up to me and my partner and I tell him to return to his team. At half time White's Coach goes to the book and sees that we only called one foul the whole half. BTW, the Blue Coach is not saying anything. He now gets close to me and starts yelling at me. I put a stop to it quickly by telling him "Thats enough" He kept on so I told him "Thats your warning coach (with my hand held in a stop position)." As I go back to discuss the first half with my partner the parents in the gym start to clap in appreciation for putting the coach in his place (thats what one grandparent says to me right at the end of half) After the applause the Head Official (Mr. K) comes up to me and my partner and asks if in my opinon one foul call during the half was sufficiate for the level of contact. I state Yes. He told me I am wrong and starts to walk away. I stop him and tell him that he is going to listen to what I saw and not let him assume anything.

At the start of the 2nd half I tell the kids to stop flopping (these kids know what it is) and in the 4th quarter a kid floops. It is so apparent that White flopped cause no one touched him. I blew my whistle and gave the appropriate call, a T for flopping. Mr. K states that it is not a T and stops the game until I change the call to a basic block.

All during the game I see Mr. K and White's Coach talking.

Thank god I will never be working with or for Mr. K again in either sport (Basketball or Football). I loose respect for any fellow official that does that to a brother official. Does anyone else thinks that Mr. K was wrong or is it just me?

By the way, I have been officiating Rec, House Leagues and Intermurals for 10 years. Thinking next season finally doing High School. Any thoughts?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by NothernVA_Ump
..... There was alot of contact mostly team mates running into team mates......At half time White's Coach goes to the book and sees that we only called one foul the whole half.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you were too loose and needed to tighten the reins a bit.

I can't recall ever having a game where we only called one foul in a half, especially where admnittedly, there's "a lot fo contact." You can draw the line anywhere that you need to, just be consistent with it.

That doesn't make anyone's behavior any less poor.

[deecee]

imagine a game with lots of contact only having 1 foul in a half -- however the guy who runs the league comes up to me at half time and says that my response would be save this for after the game -- he says anything else i leave. Unless you are at a camp or being evaluated there should be no critism from the supervisors or your partner during the game -- unless you ask for it.

as for the coach -- he wouldve had a T during the first half from me from what he sounds like, you were way to lenient -- remember this is 9yr old basketball -- tolerance for crap should not be the same as a high school contest IMO.

these are just my opinions -- i only work where i have the support of my supervisors -- if they dont support me they can find someone else to do the games or do it themselves.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by NothernVA_Ump
1)Throughout the first half White's Coach was yelling for fouls. I ignored him.

2)During a time out the Assistant comes over up to me and my partner and I tell him to return to his team.

3) At half time White's Coach goes to the book and sees that we only called one foul the whole half.

4) He now gets close to me and starts yelling at me. I put a stop to it quickly by telling him "Thats enough" He kept on so I told him "Thats your warning coach (with my hand held in a stop position)."

5) After the applause the Head Official (Mr. K) comes up to me and my partner and asks if in my opinon one foul call during the half was sufficiate for the level of contact. I state Yes. He told me I am wrong and starts to walk away.

6) At the start of the 2nd half I tell the kids to stop flopping (these kids know what it is) and in the 4th quarter a kid flops. It is so apparent that White flopped cause no one touched him. I blew my whistle and gave the appropriate call, a T for flopping. Mr. K states that it is not a T and stops the game until I change the call to a basic block.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts?

Yeah, nothing ever change in rec league ballgames. You either have to expect that you're gonna get that type of nonsense or you don't bother to do their games.

Now, some pointers:
1) If you let 'em, they'll never stop yelling. One warning and then a technical foul takes care of this situation.

2) Automatic technical foul. Assistant coaches are to be seen- sitting down- and not heard. He's not only out of his bench area, he's yapping at you.

3) It's an automatic technical foul for the coach to look at the scorebook at the half. I know that you're not gonna call it at this level, but it's nice to know the rule.

4) Why did you warn the coach twice? You don't let coaches yell at you, especially at half time, and the first "that's enough" was his warning. It's no use warning if you're not gonna follow up that warning either. Believe me, coaches will figure that out in a hurry if they're getting away with it.

5) If Mr. K isn't going to support his officials, then you don't want to work with him. Head officials are supposed to train or teach. He was doing neither.

6) Flopping is an advanced call at that age. Use with caution. Calling the block serves the same purpose. Having said that, Mr. K was wrong again to do what he did. That should have been taken care of after the game and in private.

Go for the high school ball- unless you're just in it for the money. You'll have a helluva lot fewer aggravations than you'll get in a rec league setting.

Whatever you do, good luck to you.

[Adam]

Originally posted by NothernVA_Ump
At the start of the 2nd half I tell the kids to stop flopping (these kids know what it is) and in the 4th quarter a kid floops. It is so apparent that White flopped cause no one touched him. I blew my whistle and gave the appropriate call, a T for flopping. Mr. K states that it is not a T and stops the game until I change the call to a basic block.

At this point, you explain to Mr. K that you're not changing the call. If he has a problem with it, he can officiate the rest of the game himself.

And go to High School if you have the chance. Coaches know the flop is a T, scorers don't question your calls (unless you're Jeff Junker), and your assignor will back a T like that (especially when you'd warned the kids about it.)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
3) It's an automatic technical foul for the coach to look at the scorebook at the half. I know that you're not gonna call it at this level, but it's nice to know the rule.

It is?

[Snake~eyes]

When you told the coach "that's enough" that was his warning, yet you warned him again. T his *** up, most coaches shut up when you say "taht's enough," coaches that want to continue deserve a T and they know it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It is?

Yup, case book play 10.5.1SitC(b). That applies to all intermissions afaik.

[Stat-Man]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, case book play 10.5.1SitC(b). That applies to all intermissions afaik.

What if the coach looks at the book at the scorers table without moving it from said location?

[BktBallRef]

It's an interesting interpretation. We've always allowed coaches to go the the table prior to the game starting and during halftime. It's always been accepted and even discussed at state clinics when bench decorum has been brought up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Stat-Man

What if the coach looks at the book at the scorers table without moving it from said location?

That's what we're discussing. I think everyone knows it can't be removed from the table.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's an interesting interpretation. We've always allowed coaches to go the the table prior to the game starting and during halftime. It's always been accepted and even discussed at state clinics when bench decorum has been brought up.

There was something fairly definitive sent out on this years ago iirc, but I'll be damned if I can remember exactly what it was.

That case play simply says the coach can't be at the table to seek information unless it's for a correctble error. It doesn't list any exceptions.

Interesting kinda play. Personally, I don't really worry if the coach takes a quick look at the book at the half, as long as that's all he's doing. If he brings up the foul count after looking, or sumthin' like that though, then he's gonna hear about it.

If you bring it up with your state guy again, let me know what he thinks.

[BktBallRef]

I had hoped to see him this week but he'll be at the Western Regionals and I'll be at the Eastern.

[NothernVA_Ump]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Honestly, it sounds to me like you were too loose and needed to tighten the reins a bit.

I can't recall ever having a game where we only called one foul in a half, especially where admnittedly, there's "a lot fo contact." You can draw the line anywhere that you need to, just be consistent with it.

That doesn't make anyone's behavior any less poor.

If you read the rest of the sentance I stated that most contact was teammate to teammate. Meaning Team A ran into Team A.

[NothernVA_Ump]

Originally posted by deecee
imagine a game with lots of contact only having 1 foul in a half -- however the guy who runs the league comes up to me at half time and says that my response would be save this for after the game -- he says anything else i leave. Unless you are at a camp or being evaluated there should be no critism from the supervisors or your partner during the game -- unless you ask for it.

as for the coach -- he wouldve had a T during the first half from me from what he sounds like, you were way to lenient -- remember this is 9yr old basketball -- tolerance for crap should not be the same as a high school contest IMO.

these are just my opinions -- i only work where i have the support of my supervisors -- if they dont support me they can find someone else to do the games or do it themselves.

I agree, I should of T'ed him in the frist half. But at half was the first time he directed his comments toward me or my partner (which by the was a young kind 12-13 at most).