BACKGROUND
OK, this is a long one that I have been chewing on for about a week because I didn't know how to say it or whether to try to say it. I coach in a high school that's located in the former per capita murder capital of the country and I love teaching the game of basketball to my kids and the metaphors it offers for learning about life. There was an incident late in our last game that I felt like the officials mishandled and I definitely mishandled and I just wanted to describe my thinking here in the hopes that it might make some small difference.

INCIDENT
We are up about 25 in the fourth against a team whose coach believes in the "foul to stop layup" philosopy that I am not a huge fan of but, whatever. She has been getting on her guys for allowing my kids to finish inside and get 3-point play opportunities during the game. Her team is pressuring up top, we pass around and throw down low to our 5-man who is behind everyone. A little guard from the other team runs across and down the lane and grabs our 5-man hard from behind by both upper-arms and turns him sideways to prevent the layup. We are guest and the home crowd has a laugh, partly, I think, because of the obvious intentional foul and partly because of this tiny white kid grabbing this large black kid. I think just about everyone was ready to laugh it off - there was clearly no intent to start a fight, this poor kid was tired of his coach yelling at him and his teammates to stop giving up layups. He kind up turned away embarrassed and his team was laughing as were the officials. I was watching my 5-man and so was my 4-man who was behind the play and couldn't even see 5's face. The 4-man didn't hesitate, he came running over and wrapped his arms around the 5-man and started calming him down - he didn't need to see his face to know his reaction was not one of light-hearted humor.

CONTEXT
Teaching kids from very violent neighborhoods (I hesitate to over-generalize but I feel pretty safe here) that fighting is wrong means only that you will lack all crediblity in their eyes. Many have close family who have taught them never to back down from anyone and for good reason. It is often a much wiser decision for a kid to jump into a certain beating that to be seen as someone who backs down on the street. I teach essentially that fighting will ALWAYS lead to negative consequences at school and that basketball is competition not threat. Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the player's job is to play and compete not talk or fight. I try to help them understand that every craftsman's toolbox has a hammer in it but they need a lot of other tools and can't simply look for a bigger hammer every time they acquire a new tool. They believe it but the trust comes slowly sometimes. Often kids start to feel a threat early in situations and it's not the actual physical violence we see in front of us, it's the question of when their failure to deal with the threat of physical violence starts to lead to the promise of a bigger problem down the road.

BACK TO THE INCIDENT
So, the official called the foul but not the intentional. I didn't know this crew at all and we had driven out into the boonies for this game. They had worked an eighth-grade game before ours and weren't even coming to the table to signal fouls, they were relaying their signals to their partner so I didn't even have a chance to have a quiet word. To debate whether he kicked it is kind of moot because I'm going to make my same plea here anyway . . . but I kicked it here. What I did was say, across the floor since he was relaying his call to his partner, "isn't that kind of the definition of intentional?" In my mind I'm thinking, "let's show the kids we're on top of it." What he's probably thinking is, "this jerk is up by 28 and he is arguing for this call?" If I had it to do over I think I would have called for a 30 to see if I could have said, "I don't need the intentional but please just warn so my players can see you warn." As long as they believe that the refs and their coach are really taking care of business we can minimize any crap. I don't know if this would have seemed annoying too, but it had to be better than just talking across the court like a moron.

CLARIFICATION
I am not asking for any exceptions for kids who have it rough. Keep the bar high. If my kids let loose verbally or slam a ball down please whack away and when you do you will see their replacement kneeling at the table and my player will know that he has not faced the worst part of his day yet. I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any potentially incendiary incident, comment, etc, even if it's late in a game and the intent seems innocent enough that it is worth taking into account that there may be two (or more) different cultures on the receiving end. Please don't let an intentional foul or trash talking go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding.

Ultimately, my kids know they are the ones who have to adjust to a different culture if they want to be sucessful. I always worry when they put their faith in the system and it doesn't seem to work for them. I know this may seem like a small point but a lot of my kids are not sure it's worth it to "act more white." A lot of little rewards help.

This is an interesting topic, and I'll try to respond to it both in my coach shoes, and my official's shoes. As a coach, I feel it is one of my biggest in game responsiblities to be an advocate for my players and to be a leader during the game. In order to have any success, you have to build a trust with your team. When it comes to dealing with calls by officials, I teach my kids that I will be the only one who discusses calls with officials. However, in order for this philosophy to work, there will be times as a coach when you have to stand up for your players, particularly in the situation you describe, with a lot of kids from the inner-city. If you don't stand up for them, they'll view you as a patsy and they'll start to react themselves. On the other end, if you do this too often, as a number of coaches do, you lose credibility not only with the officials, but with your players as you've now given them the excuse to fail. My goal is for my players to feel, that "coach has my back," but when they happen to be wrong, that they recognize that, "coach would have my back if I'm right, so I must be wrong."

As an official, I'm not a part of any team that's playing, nor am I in tune with a team's inner workings. I call what I see, try to call the obvious and do my best. If the situation happened the way you described it, I, as a coach, I sympatize. As an official, who might have, and probably did, see the play differently, I would not have taken kindly to your comments, and given the situation and the context, may or may not have issued a technical foul.

I'm not sure exactly what your question is here on the forum. If you're looking for a way to show up an official for the benefit of maintaining credibility in the eyes of your players and not get penalized, I say there is none. If you want us as officials to condone rationalizations for certain behavior, we won't. This is a cost-benefit decision that you have to make, and accept the consequences for: if you get a technical or even ejected for what you say/do, that's part of the decision that you made. Your primary role is as a role model for the kids that you coach, and if you feel that the only way to maintain that role in a specific situation that you have to show-up the officials, then by all means do so, but expect to be penalized accordingly, and don't come here or anywhere else and expect sympathy by rationalizing that, "the officials were so bad they made me do it."

If you're looking for a better way to handle the situation, probably rather than showing up the official by shouting across the floor at his partner, call a timeout and use the timeout to question the call/get an answer, that way, at least you're not shouting across the court and you're still defending your players.

You're asking officials to get into an area where we don't belong. It's not our job to judge or treat kids differently at any time, no matter what their backgrounds are. It's an official's job to treat everybody <b>equally</b> during a game.

You had a 25 point lead with time running out, coach. The foul that was committed <b>sounds</b> like it was intentional, but certainly <b>not</b> flagrant. I also didn't see the foul...nor did I talk to the calling official....so I don't <b>know</b> whether the call was correct or not. Even if it got blown however, that is still no excuse for your player to go off with the macho stuff. If you thought your player was getting excited, why didn't <b>you</b> just call an immediate time-out to try and calm your player down? And then get him right off the floor after his free-throws? Don't you think that might be a better option than you trying to figure out the best way for you to b*tch at an official instead? It's not like you need that player out there when you're up 25 in the 4th, you know.

If you're unable to teach your team that fighting is wrong, then I'd hate to see the day that a flagrant foul <b>is</b> committed against one of your players. It sounds like it would be an instant brawl.

Sorry for the lack of sympathy.....but....I think that you're not giving your kids enough credit in the first place. You're trying to control them,, not teach them. Jmo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bebanovich
[B]BACKGROUND
OK, this is a long one that I have been chewing on for about a week because I didn't know how to say it or whether to try to say it. I coach in a high school that's located in the former per capita murder capital of the country and I love teaching the game of basketball to my kids and the metaphors it offers for learning about life. There was an incident late in our last game that I felt like the officials mishandled and I definitely mishandled and I just wanted to describe my thinking here in the hopes that it might make some small difference.

INCIDENT
We are up about 25 in the fourth against a team whose coach believes in the "foul to stop layup" philosopy that I am not a huge fan of but, whatever. She has been getting on her guys for allowing my kids to finish inside and get 3-point play opportunities during the game. Her team is pressuring up top, we pass around and throw down low to our 5-man who is behind everyone. A little guard from the other team runs across and down the lane and grabs our 5-man hard from behind by both upper-arms and turns him sideways to prevent the layup. We are guest and the home crowd has a laugh, partly, I think, because of the obvious intentional foul and partly because of this tiny white kid grabbing this large black kid. I think just about everyone was ready to laugh it off - there was clearly no intent to start a fight, this poor kid was tired of his coach yelling at him and his teammates to stop giving up layups. He kind up turned away embarrassed and his team was laughing as were the officials. I was watching my 5-man and so was my 4-man who was behind the play and couldn't even see 5's face. The 4-man didn't hesitate, he came running over and wrapped his arms around the 5-man and started calming him down - he didn't need to see his face to know his reaction was not one of light-hearted humor.

Being up 25 or not what you describe seems like an intentional foul to me from me perspective. It was a non basketball play.

CONTEXT
Teaching kids from very violent neighborhoods (I hesitate to over-generalize but I feel pretty safe here) that fighting is wrong means only that you will lack all crediblity in their eyes. Many have close family who have taught them never to back down from anyone and for good reason. It is often a much wiser decision for a kid to jump into a certain beating that to be seen as someone who backs down on the street. I teach essentially that fighting will ALWAYS lead to negative consequences at school and that basketball is competition not threat. Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the player's job is to play and compete not talk or fight. I try to help them understand that every craftsman's toolbox has a hammer in it but they need a lot of other tools and can't simply look for a bigger hammer every time they acquire a new tool. They believe it but the trust comes slowly sometimes. Often kids start to feel a threat early in situations and it's not the actual physical violence we see in front of us, it's the question of when their failure to deal with the threat of physical violence starts to lead to the promise of a bigger problem down the road.

Where the kids are from has no bearing on there reaction they will have if they are fouled in the manner you describle. Continue to work with you kids about the repercussions of fighting.

BACK TO THE INCIDENT
What I did was say, across the floor since he was relaying his call to his partner, "isn't that kind of the definition of intentional?" In my mind I'm thinking, "let's show the kids we're on top of it." What he's probably thinking is, "this jerk is up by 28 and he is arguing for this call?" If I had it to do over I think I would have called for a 30 to see if I could have said, "I don't need the intentional but please just warn so my players can see you warn." As long as they believe that the refs and their coach are really taking care of business we can minimize any crap. I don't know if this would have seemed annoying too, but it had to be better than just talking across the court like a moron.

JMO, I agree you should have called a time-out to ask you question instead of yelling across the court. You right into their hands on this one.

A thoughtful question, coach bebanovich. However, you are responsible for your players' conduct, and by yelling at the official, you are inciting your players.

When you are up by 20-something, why do you care that the foul is a common, intentional or flagrant, as long as some foul is called? A call that you disagree with is not a slap in the face. Some times good people make mistakes, and sometimes good people see things differently than you. An example of good sportsmanship at this point would make a better lesson for your players than showing up an official.

As you and others have pointed out, it would be better to address the official privately during a timeout, and ask for an explanation of the call. Even better would be to realize that you don't need a more severe punishment than was given. A team with a big lead should not be so concerned with every call. As a coach you should be more concerned with the example you are setting.

I deal with street kids like yours all the time, and I understand the challenges you face. For some, you may be the only male role model they interact with regularly. They will imitate you whether you want them to or not. If you are yelling at the official, they will be looking to side with you, and tensions will escalate. Next time, try saying "Good call, ref!" instead, and see if the tension is diffused. You may be surprised at how your players react.

I have to disagree with this. I have found that it makes a difference when you are involved highly physical games, especially blow-outs, that the properly applied technical, flagrant, or intentional foul is the best way to diffuse contentious situations. Especially in less formal settings, like Adult Rec league or AAU, you can't always depend on the coaches to exercise the requisite control of their players and/or fans.

Though we, as officials, shouldn't be responsible for knowing all the inner-workings of a team's psyche, we should however, as part of our game management, know the general environment in which we are officiating. We should know that in a particular game there may be a potential for violence.

[Edited by BadNewsRef on Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:49 PM]

I'm not absolving the officials from any responsibility. I'm just saying that whether the team wins by 25 or 27 is not as important as the coach sending the right message to his players.

For all we know, the officials had a different view of the foul and made the correct call. How the coach responds to the call (good or bad) goes a long way toward setting the tone of the game.

IMHO, this was a good time to show that as winners, they don't have to sink to the level of the team thay were beating.

Amen, to that.

The difference between an "intentional foul" and a "common foul" is ... after an intentional foul you get the ball back. In a blow out game, this distinction is not important enough for you to be wasting your time with.

I coached, and I know that nothing made me seethe more than feeling like the opponents' physical play began to create the makings of unsafe conditions. I do agree that calling an foul as "intentional" or "technical" (I'm not suggesting that a T was appropriate under the circumstances described...) can have an effect on the game and settle it down. And, under the circumstances you described, would I as a coach and as an officiating colleague hope that the foul was called "intentional"? Yes. But what if it's not?

This is where your leadership really kicks in. YOU have to help your kids see that whether a foul is called "intentional" or "common," or even called at all, THEY have the ability to control their response. And if they want to play on YOUR team, they'll learn that lesson.

I'd be willing to guess that your player's angry reaction was formed, or forming, before s/he ever checked to see what signal the official was giving. S/he was mad at the hard contact, not at the signal the official was making after the whistle. Help your kids understand the appropriate response to hard contact and don't start them down the path that you're on, which appears to be waiting to see what an official does before you decide how you're going to handle the situation.

You have a tough job, no doubt about it.

A coach shouldn't yell across the floor to bring light to himself (or herself).
Intentional fouls should be called the same way for the entire game and the officials could have blown this one.

The comment about "acting white" is idiotic to say the least. Adding that at the end of your post brings an ignorance to your whole situation. It doesn't matter whether you are repeating something your players say or not, it also doesn't matter what race you are; some things aren't worth repeating.

I live in an area where I can work games with teams that come from the deepest parts of the inner city to the richest of suburbs in the country. The worst acting players and coaches in my opinion are the people from the suburban areas. I am not sure why there is so much focus on kids from violent areas as if they are incapable to behave in a proper way. Usually the inner city kids are more down to earth and are very easy to get along with.

Bottom line is there are bad kids and good kids all over the place. It is not the kid’s fault where they live, it is the towns and communities that largely abandon those communities and allow things to go on in one side of town that will never be allowed to take place in the other side of town. The kids do not play apart in that reality. Many times these kids are the victims of violence and they want no part of it. That is why they are on the basketball teams and try to go to college and make a better way of life for themselves and family.


Peace

Some great points for officials and coaches were made thus far- Some cheap shots were taken too.
here is the point I would like to make -
by description yes it should have probably been an intentional foul call - I didn't see it - what I did see from your writing is this, - you need to teach you kids to hold them selves together better. I do not care how hard you are fouled you do not react - your get up and walk away.
When I coached not one of my kids would have ver reacted that way.
As far as dealing with the officials a quiet word at the bench would have been the best way. But you might have wanted to have that with the officials a long time prior to this. Since the officials had mailed this game in awhile ago based on the description given about their mechanics.

Officials no matter the level have no steak in the score other than somebody wins (eventually). They do however owe it to the players and fans to not mail it in because this is where trouble starts.
coaches need to work with the referees where possible - this would be one of those times. A quite word to the refs about making sure that we don't have problems with hard fouls probably would have been sufficient in this case - and prudent.
I see a lot of blame to go aroud here.

This is an interesting discussion, let me add some personal experience here:

I coached an 8th grade girls CYO team several years ago. I had a fairly diverse team with white, black and asian players on the team.

My team was fairly good and we traveled to a gym to play a team that was just awful. The school/team we were playing is majority African American and is in a African American neighborhood.

We were beating the opposing team fairly badly (score of 19-1).

Not only was the team just awful, the coach didn't exhibit any positive leadership at all. He was ripping the refs saying they were favoring my team because I also was a ref. He eventually got T'ed for that.

The unfortunate thing is that the opposing coach's attitude carried over to his team. At the start of the 4th quarter, one of the opposing team literally body slammed one of my players to the floor.

The officials (who I both knew) had done as much as they could to control the game by calling fouls on the opposing team (my team has no reason to foul, that was how bad the other team was).

But the game has become a safety hazard and the game was called after my player was body slammed.

If this case, no matter what the referees did, it wouldn't have mattered. If the opposing coach had more control of himself, then perhaps things wouldn't have gotten out of hand.

As a sidenote, the school/progream in question has improved. The coaching/leadership is good now and the kids play good ball and keep themselves under control.

I guess my point is that ultimately, no matter referees do, it's the coach that points the direction of the team. I have always found it annoying that coaches use excuses why there teams get beat or lose ("The refs cheated us", "you were biased", etc).

OK. Some great stuff here but also some assumptions made. I said only that my 4-man immediately ran to my 5-man and started calming him, but I didn't say anything about an outward reaction or my 5-man being unable to control himself. I just said that other players reacted to the situation anticipating something different than the laughing fans and officials. The player had a flash of anger in his face but he maintained composure and looked me in the eyes and talked to me between freethrows before I allowed him to continue.

My bigger point was about continuing to call the game to the end or, even better, to admonish an offending player openly. I don't want the damn ball back in a blow-out but I want my kids to see that the rules will take care of them to the end.

I did admit to blowing it, but I never said I yelled at anyone. What I did do was "say across the court." It was a mistake because it is a bad way to communicate a subtle idea and saying is still a public calling-out even though it is not yelling.

Not looking for sympathy or forgiveness just a plea to keep calling the game evenly for the duration even if it seems like a laugher to some.

In terms of my students dealing with feeling that succeeding in school sometimes feels like sacrificing their culture and becoming more "white." I don't agree with it, but many of my students feel it so if I can't help them process it without making them feel idiotic for having the feeling then I am worthless to them.

You had a judgement call made by an official. Whether that judgement call was right or wrong certainly is moot as you said yourself- right before you admitted that you were gonna complain about the call anyway. No matter what, the call was not an excuse for <b>any</b> player, no matter what color they are, to pull that "you can't do that to me" crap. From your description, it wasn't a hard or a flagrant type of foul. And it's sureasheck wasn't an excuse for a coach to start a b*tchfest over one call in a 25 point game imo. And if you think that macho behavior is restricted solely to black kids, coach, then you haven't been paying much attention either. I've seen kids from all over the rainbow and from greatly varying backgrounds act the same way on that one. Instead of using it as a teaching moment, you were more worried about what was the best way to whine at the officials. Yup, gotta show the kids you got their backs. To hell with sportsmanship while you're doing so. Well, you were using the kids as an excuse, as far as I'm concerned. And also not giving them enough credit for knowing that they had to stay cool in that type of situation. It's kinda hard for the players to stay cool if the coach doesn't know how to do the same thing.

I'm glad you're not looking for sympathy and forgiveness here. I got a feeling that you're not gonna get too much of either on this particular forum.

Don't be too hard on the coach, here. It seems he's honestly looking to learn. Personally, I think he's being a little tough on himself, but the incident obviously bothered him and he's looking for a better way to handle it in the future. And it takes guts to make the "act white" comment. Being from a white, middle class, upper Midwest area - I'm in no position to argue the point - but he's not the first to talk about the attitude (Bill Cosby and other black leaders have also been talking about it for a couple of years).

Just a few thoughts - a blow out game is not a good time to pass on an intentional foul. It's not how much they win by that is the issue - it's control of the game that matters.

I agree that the comment across the floor wasn't the way to handle it. I'm not even sure if any comment to the refs was needed - a quick timeout would have been good just to remind your kids to control themselves and expect the fouls - and do it loud enough so the refs hear you.

Final thought - refs can't stop fouls, we can only call them after they happen. We can help by calling them and talking to the players, but preventing them is the job of the coaches and players.

bebanovich,
Good post.
If I thought it was funny, I would have had little problem calling the intentional foul... with a smile on my face.
mick

Game management covers such a wide path -- and while we usually use it only to discuss how officials handle coaches and players, this post is instructive that game management also includes how coaches (and even players) handle game situations.

I had several incidents this past week that reminded me of that. In a youth game the other day (6th grade boys), a team up by more than 20 was trapping and fast-breaking and running up the score. After I called a foul against the losing team, the player who was fouled shouted, "Finally." I gave him a "T." After the foul shots, the kid's coach called a time out and asked me what happened. I told him. After the game, the coach told me that behavior was not OK and that the player was benched for the rest of the game.

In another game, my partner and the home coach were getting into it over what the coach thought were poor calls -- one in particular. . My partner was a first-year official and I could see he was getting upset by this coach's behavior -- and his refusal to put that call behind him. I told my partner to move far away from the coach because I knew the coach would say something to merit a T. The coach also pleaded with me for "some help" but all he got was that he should concentrate on the coaching and we would take care of the officiating. A few days later I saw this coach at another game. He thanked me for keeping him out of trouble. I saw it as good game management all around. It was nice to know the coach saw it that way too.

Coach,
A couple of things -
I do not and I dont think anyone of the officials on this board belittles your comminment to your kids - and if we are being hard on you it is tough love I think a lot of us have taken some shots at the officials on the game for their actions too.
The disipline of your kids as far as their control is taken from your lead - and since we see these situation over and over and over and over again - it is hard for us to feel to much sympathy when you are up 25 and making comments about calls - right or wrong.
Your 4 player did the right thing and if your 5 wasn't - for just that instant - thinking of cleaning that kids clock then I appologize to you and him.

But these kids see this stuff in the NBA or street ball or even NCAA all the time and will face some body down in these situations in a 2 point game or a 25 point game, stopping that behavior falls on the coach.
But as I said in my first post, I take issue with the officials for not calling the whole game that could have prevented this whole thing -
The way you deal with officials will go a long way to how they deal with you. Talk with us, ask questions, ask for help,it does a lot more than calling out across the floor-
Good luck with your kids.

Since when did Bill Cosby become the voice of the Black community? I hope you do not think because Cosby had a TV show with a Black family that gives him some credibility that trumps those that deal with regular Black people on a day to day basis. You need to listen to many people in the Black community that disagreed with him.

In my area Thanksgiving (this season) there was a white kid from a private school that cursed out his coach and refused to come off the floor and go into the game during a tournament. In the fall out the coach resigned and the kid was only suspended for 2 games by the school. Now that sounds like attitude to me and there were no people of color involved in that story. So I am not sure this "attitude" you talk about has anything to do with some Black kids in a violent area in a specific way.

Peace

Just another thought....

How do you know that it <b>was</b> an intentional foul? Because a coach said so?

I'm going to assume that the foul was intentional, because I've seen it before and arguing that point isn't really important to me here.
Coach, I think you did fine. Your comment was more in line with showing your kids you had their back. As a ref, if I'd passed on the intentional here, I would have let you have a gripe. I may well have had my reasons for passing on the X, but I'd fully understand why a coach would challenge my judgment there.
If you would continue, then I may have to ask you to stop. However, it sounds as if you only made the one comment. Frankly, I'm giving some leeway here.

Also, good job on teaching the kids. It sounds as if they handled themselves pretty well here. It's up to teammates half the time to calm each other down. #5 may have felt he was being ridiculed, I don't know, but the laughter may not have helped him at the time. Your #4 deserves a pat on the back for stepping up.

Let's distill the original post down a bit.

Coach, up 28, is unhappy he didn't get an intentional foul call by some officials during an away game. Somehow race and fear are a factor - he goes out of his way to tell us he coaches a team located in a former per capita murder capital of the country and his kids have a problem with acting white, so I'm assuming he's got his hands full with a bunch of black kids he's afraid of, or should be afraid of, or maybe we should be afraid of, or whatever. Somehow Bill Cosby's involved. Jello pudding anyone?

Other than that there's no question asked, although he does imply that the intentional should have been given to reward his players. Because they are different, somehow.

I think that cover it.

Let me be clear about one thing . . . my kids did absolutely the right things in this case. The one kid who was angry absolutely kept himself under control and a teammate rushed to make sure that he did before he had a chance to do anything else. I'm sure he thought about cleaning someone's clock or even saying something but thank God for the distance our team has put between thought and action.

My comments about how my kids respond to the threat of violence were merely to point out why my kids did not think this was as funny as the fans and officials and opponents seemed to think it was, not to offer an excuse for any outburst - that I feel compelled to repeat for only one or maybe two of you DID NOT HAPPEN. The best way to respect the cultural differences that existed in this game was to call the damn game equally to the end.

Expect me to teach sportsmanship, self-control, fundamentals and the rules of the game but don't make me explain to my kids why the rules can be waived for a while and they can be left out of the joke. So far I haven't really asked anyone to buy 100% the premise the the refs booted the call but they booted it and the whole gym new it and shared a good chuckle. That's not a lesson that I want to be teaching in the van on the way back home - the rules of basketball are not supposed to be subjected to a nod-and-a-wink mentality.

I am certainly not accusing anyone here of being as horrible as the refs in this game. Nor am I accusing anyone here, or even those horrible refs, of being racist. I'm just saying that race, economics and neighborhood do create different cultural beliefs and you can't assume that everyone is reading a situation the same way.

A lot of customs of our schools, workplaces and activities are based on values and unwritten rules that have their roots in white culture - yes, it's OK to say this (unless you want me to say European or Caucasian) and yes, white people do have a culture. In some sense, not all, but many students of color have to become bi-cultural. I have to help my students and players process this all the time and try to keep them from demonizing students who hone their skills in "proper English" or ("job interview English" as my students call it). It just gets that much harder when people shift the rules around or start making exceptions.

This is probably much more than any of you wanted on an officials forum but if anyone is really interested in these issues, Dr. Lisa Delpit's, Other People's Children: Cultural Conflict in the Classroom is not a bad place to start.

Sorry you're having trouble Dan_ref. Maybe you could try sounding out the big words.

Coach, basketball is only the tool to help these children. It is not the end to the means. You already know that. It is obvious that you are an educated person. (I'm not entirely sure that you aren't still trying to "work the refs", right here on this forum). Are you trying to win basketball games (and help your own situation) or are you trying to help these kids?


You wrote:
Ultimately, my kids know they are the ones who have to adjust to a different culture if they want to be sucessful. I always worry when they put their faith in the system and it doesn't seem to work for them. I know this may seem like a small point but a lot of my kids are not sure it's worth it to "act more white." A lot of little rewards help.

You know that you must teach these kids that life isn't as simple as "Do these things and you will live happily ever after". That's how fairy tales end, not real life. The answer to bigotism cannot not be solved on this forum. There are poor white kids too. You must teach them it is not "act more white". That is just an excuse, a cop out. When you allow them justify that remark, you are doing them a great dis-service. There are sucessful African Americans. There are Angalo-Saxons who are losers. When you let color enter into the conversation as a valid excuse, you have lost the battle. You must stop that as soon as you hear it. As you know, you don't brush it under the rug so that you can gain their trust. You stop practice, you sit down and have a discussion. You show them that they could do everything right, and still get the short end of the stick. That's life, no matter what color you are. But you must try to be sucessful. That a Black person must act "White" to become sucessful is B.U.L.L. S.H.I.T..... It's a society we live in. White people have to learn to "Act" a certain way also if they want to be sucessful. To be sucessful in Buisness, I had to act like a buiness person. The President of the company I worked for was Black. A college graduate. He taught night school part time. I am sure that he had a lot more going on than I even knew. He wasn't "ACTING". He was/is sucessfull because he set high standards for himself. Perfection cannot be obtained, but it makes an excellent goal. I could write pages, but the issue will not be solved by my ranting on and on.

I would suggest that you decide what it is you are trying to do. Once you decide if you are helping yourself or helping the kids, your solution will become clear.

The lesson is not "If you do the right things, the right things will happen to you". The lesson should be "You must try your best to succeed. It won't be easy. You will find roadblocks at every turn. It is up to you to overcome the hurdles. You only lose when you stop trying. Don't expect a secret potion, don't trust you future to a lottery ticket. Don't fight the opponet. Don't fight the officials. Fight the world, and win. You must continue to try, even when the cards are stacked against you." But, I think you already know this.

Oh yeah, what does Bill Cosby say about this matter? See for yourself.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20040702a.html

Aww...how cute. It thinks it's insulting me.

Why do you keep asking your questions if you don't like or agree with any of the answers that you get? As far as I can tell, you're just wasting everybody's time, including your own. You're trying to lay your own shortcomings as a coach onto the officials, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, we expect you to teach sportsmanship. That's supposed to be part of a coach's job. You're not doing that when you go looking for reasons to blame things on the officials. One missed freaking call and you announce to the world that they're "horrible officials" and you just got to show your kids that you've got their backs by complaining. Now, what's wrong with that picture.

That's <b>my</b> opinion! Feel free to ignore it or dismiss it. Your choice.

Calm down JR.

Have some jello pudding.

NEWSFLASH!!!
 

Black people have been behaving differently around white people and differently around their own people for years now. It is not anything Black people have not been doing for years. I know as a Black official, my fellow Black officials have conversations we do not have at our association meetings or when working with white officials. Maybe the coach needs not to be coaching these kids if he does not at least know such a basic thing as how to behave in public or professional situations.

Peace

Coach bebonovich,

I began reading this post with a sneaking thought that you would get your feelings hurt and would lash out. You've done it before on this forum. I think you took a cheap shot at Dan_ref. IMO, he did a fine job of pointing out that your question was vague if it was a question at all.

Posters have concurred with your own conclusion that you could have handled this OP with a time out rather than *talk* across the floor at the *horrible* refs. Your kids would have learned something too. Go figure.

I agree with Mick and Snagwells. I wasn't there but I've handled similar situations by either calling a common and talking to the players or calling the X and talking to the players. I've done both. The choice has depended on my feel for that particular game. In this sitch I probably would have gone the common route and given you some leeway.

This has now moved toward something else. I'm thinking it's really what you're after. You seem to like to stir things up. If so, fine. But say so.

I've read Delpit's book, among others, (Kozol and Rose come to mind) and I continue to read editorials and columns on the cultural divide issue. Most recently a column by the publisher of Black Enterprise that spoke directly to the problem of demonizing young black men for being good students. Furthermore, I teach in a white suburban High School that busses kids in from a lower socioeconomic culture and have first hand experience in the cultural devide. Ours is probably the most divers of the 22 public high schools in our city. Having said all of that I can assure you that I'm not qualified to comment on this issue. I'm a white, middle aged ref!

I think you should stick to coaching basketball. Leave the social commentary to the authentic social commentaters.

And leave the officiating to the officials.

Thanks for working with kids.

Bruce






[Edited by basketballen on Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:33 PM]

bebanovich --

I get your point and I totally agree. The only thing I'd disagree with in your OP is the part about it mattering more to your kids, than to others. I've seen some very privileged, white kids who have had every good teaching and proper parenting, who have no concept of perspective or appropriateness. They need the rules called consistently and impassively to the very end. If it WAS an intentional, and it certainly sounds like it to me, it should have been called as such, but not so much for your players' sake, as for the sake of the poor little white kid, who learns that if you just laugh at the right moment, you can shrug off behavior that's normally unacceptable. And then, the parents of the player should be talking to the coach about working with the kids on their attitudes -- I mean the white kids who really have a lousy coach.

As I think about it, I think I'll disagree about one more thing. Your kids can't ever learn the lesson that the rules always work in their favor. The rules are there to make the game better, but they doesn't mean that the kids are always gonna get a "fair" shake from the refs, or the announcers, or the fans, or the college scouts who are watching. I know it's hard to see kids get shafted, when you've tried so hard to teach them to follow rules, and control themselves and so on. The lesson after this game is, "Kids, those refs probably should have called an intentional, but they didn't. You can afford to be the "bigger" men here, and let it go. There's no way that foul hurt you in any way, and it's no big deal." After a game where a "bad call" has taken away an important win, the lesson is, "Yup, you got shafted. But life goes on, and by not getting violent, you have won some important games that are a lot more important than basketball. I know you don't believe me, but I commend your maturity and self-restraint."

I'm not just saying this on theory. My daughter, who is black, did get some important stuff taken away from her (and her whole team) in a basketball game, by refs who deliberately conspired. After that game, the coach said, okay, you feel like you got shafted, but life is bigger than this, etc.

I needed this lecture as much as those players. I saw clearly that everyone on that team who was going to get a scholarship had already gotten it, and they were able to go on with their lives without suffering materially. Thinking back on it, I see how right he was. The girl who "won" for the other team, struggled through a D2 college basketball career, and is now uncertain what to do with herself, while my daughter's teammates are respectively a doctor, an accountant and a military officer becuase of the D1, D1 and D2 scholarships they won.

Wow, you pushed a button, huh? I just want you to see a little more how right you are, and how much more you can be right.

One more thing. Sometimes the most empowering thing you can do for your players/offspring/students/mentees is to just assume that they'll handle a situation correctly. After all, that's the goal isnt' it? Maybe the fact that they kept control is the natural outcome of your work and teaching, and if you just sort of see that and comment on it offhandedly, they'll take that as a compliment. Let them be the great kids you've known all along they are.

Let me say from the outset, Time2Ref, that I think you have misinterpreted the purpose of my post and the main point I was trying to make. However, your willingness to engage on this topic with passion and intelligence is very much appreciated an deserves a response in kind.

Communication is a two-way street and a forum is not necessarily the ideal, um, forum for a complex topic but I still don't understand the idea that I'm here working officials or advancing my self-interests. Maybe if someone ever explained the mechanics of how this benefits me rather than just offering it as an accusation I could take it seriously.

As far as allowing my players to use race as an excuse for their behavior - I agree with you 100% on this and would also like to point out that there was nothing in the example I gave of my players' behavior that requires an excuse. In fact, the opposing coach offered after the game that of all the teams she had faced this year our team showed the best sportsmanship. This was a meaningful compliment to my kids. Not like the official who was working our game for the first time who went out of his way to come shake my hand after a game and said with a surprised tone, "your kids are sooo nice." While we were going over to shake the opponents' hands my captain quietly asked me, "coach, did he expect us to stab someone?" Nice guy, good intentions, low expectations.

Yes, these issues are not simple and there are no fairy tale answers. Which is why I don't just ponce on my kids when they express the idea that they sometimes feel like school is asking them to sell out on their friends and family - their culture. This is not just about race, this is about familiarity and seeing friends and family go through high school and college and get a good job based on that experience. My kids don't have that familiarity and don't understand all of the rules and customs that people who are inundated with those role models take for granted. Can this be an excuse? Hell no! The stakes are way too high and NO ONE besides my students is going to take full responsibilty for their lives.

A recent study by The Schott Foundation found that more African-American men are now receiving their GED from prison than receiving a college degree. You better believe my kids are learning the rules, the guidelines, the stakes and what to do with their excuses. There are some legitimate feelings in what students are expressing when they say they feel like they are selling out or having to act more white and I've worked damned hard to create an environment where they feel safe saying it. They are usually expressing it in the context of understanding that the adjustments they are making are a necessary step on the road to success. I'm going to help them process these ideas in a meaningful way and I'll be damned if I'm going to chastise them for having them.

They also aren't waiting for racists - well-intentioned or malicious - to stop being racist. It's not really fair that the victims of racism also have to be working the hardest to end it but who ever said life was going to be fair?

I didn't post here to ask a quesion (though I sometimes do and wouldn't hesitate to), and I didn't post to bag on the refs in our game - I had my opportunity to communicate with them and I blew it. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I, in any practical sense, still give a rip about the call I referred to in the example. I posted here because it drives me nuts when people - intentionally or not - create an insiders' club by switching up the rules to suit their whims when some people, because of numerous factors which may include race and economics, are working damn hard to learn those rules while also learning about algebra, business, etc..

No one has to assume that's what happened in the example I gave. In fact, let's throw my example out the window and just say, "please beware of assumptions about what it's OK to let slide in a game and for what reasons because our own cultural assumptions often kick in." I also could have given a dozen more examples from games and from the road to and from games that would have been even more inflammatory.

What is my agenda for this post? For one or two people to read it and say, "hmmm . . . that might be a point I hadn't thought of," among the litany of negative responses that it will elicit. As a side benefit, I might get to push my own thinking or learn something new by posting with someone like you who cares enough to engage. Maybe I might get a word of encouragement from someone like Rainmaker so I know I'm not just pissing in the wind.

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 28th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

I did read the article about Bill Cosby and I'm glad he cares about these issues and chooses to speak his mind. I agree with him on some things and disagree with him on more.

I just want to say two things in response:

Being White and middle-class does not disqualify you from having meaningful conversations about race.

Being Black or Latino (for example) does not make you an expert on race.

Being who you are makes you an expert on being who you are. Some have chosen to think, talk and study more about these issues than others and have different levels of experience and exposure They should be fairly granted varying levels of credibilty. But it is my opinion that conversations about race should be free of rhetoric and involve everyone (well almost everyone).

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 28th, 2006 at 07:53 PM]

The kids seemed to handle it well. The coach admitted he didn't handle it right. The call was probably booted and everyone lived happily ever after. I never saw a real question from the coach, but the discussion that has followed has been constructive. Good Night and Good Luck.

PS - I am glad the score wasn't close or we might have had a different situation with which to deal here.

This caught my eye, coach. I wasn't there, so your interpretation may well be correct, but when I read the words he said, I wonder how it is really different than the opposing coach's compliment.
How do you know the official didn't mean something similar?

Coach you are only right to a point. If someone is a member of any group, the people that are in that group say things to others in their own group than they do to people outside of that group. I never try to say I am an expert on race, but I tend to deal with enough Black people that I am very aware of the things they say to me and other Black people. My game tonight is a perfect example. I was working at a school that is all-Black and two of the three officials are Black. The conferences the host team (of the regional) has many teams in the conference that are either All-white or All-Black and the make up of the officials is an issue. Every time I go to this particular school the coaches, administrators or just fans comment about how rare it is they get to see two or more Black officials on a game. I will guess they do not say that to many coaches that are not Black. So you are right those kinds of experiences do not make me an expert, but it is something that many that are Black talk to me about and make sure they say those kinds of things to me outside of the ears of non-Black people. So when you comment about Bill Cosby, you clearly show me you are not aware of how many people of color do not care what Bill Cosby think or the issues he has raised. I realize you might think Bill is a good person to speak on such issues, but many Black people think guys like Jesse, Al or Farrakhan have more credibility on these issues. Remember, you think Black people are not aware how they have to act in regular settings outside of their community because they came from a violent area. So I will take you comments for what it is worth.

Peace

LOL! I love it! Rut keeps trying to start a fight and everyone is ignoring him! Classic! :D

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. It seems like both of us - with varying degrees of diplomacy - are dancing around calling Bill Cosby bat$h)t-crazy. I think he cares passionately about a crisis in African-American education and is speaking his mind and I just can't say this is all bad. I also happen to think his mind is slipping. I have heard some people say that because he is an African-American public figure, he has a greater responsibilty to measure his statements and take care that they cannot be misquoted and misused. I honestly don't know what I think about that. I think everyone has a right to speak his/her mind, but I also think Cosby's statements have been kind of damaging. I guess I think the better solution than stifling him is using the controversy as an opportunity to put forth, shall we say, more credible people with less simplistic answers than he is offering. It is kind of discouraging, however, how many people refer to his ideas and cite him as a "Black leader."

Which brings me to my second point. My statement about being Black not making one an instant expert on race was in response to Mr. Cosby's article. The fact that he is Black gives him a little more credibility out of the gate than, say, someone like me. However, when you factor in that he is bat$h)t-crazy, I think I pull back in the race.

Finally, the last couple of lines of your post, "Remember, you think Black people are not aware how they have to act in regular settings outside of their community because they came from a violent area. So I will take you comments for what it is worth." It's hard for me to tell if you seriously think I was saying that. If so, I apologize for the miscommunication. More importantly, however, this thread didn't start out being entirely about race and I don't want to leave the impression that it is. When you really get to the important part about college and careers, it's much more about class. In my situation, at my school, separating race from this equation makes no sense. When you talk specifically about students needing to learn the unwritten rules of succeeding in school, college and career there are, of course, people of every race who have not had to navigate this path by learning a secondary set of skills because it was part of their everyday experience growing up. They have plenty of role models, friends, family, exposure that allows them to internalize the rules of the game from within. My kids - not one of them (believe me, we talk about it a lot) - have this background. "My cousin went to community college for a year and now he works at a body shop," was as close as my newspaper class could come when they were discussing an editorial they were writing.

My Dad was the first member of his working-class family from a working-class town to graduate from college. There were a lot of fears he had to overcome and cultural norms he had to learn to accomplish this feat so I know this is not about race. But no one ever looked at my Dad and projected 1000 stereotypes onto him before he could even open his mouth to speak. Race does multiply this issue in a hurry.

My kids are fine in public. Everywhere we go, I'm proud to be their coach and thankful for the time we spend together. Sometimes they scare the 5h)t out of people but it's not their problem. I remind them a lot to watch their language but I have had to do that when I have taught kids of all races. They have a lot to learn about navigating their way through high school to college beyond just math, english, science.

Again, I'm not sure, if we are communicating clearly, where we are in disagreement?

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:45 AM]

The kids. They smelled it, they called it. No one was mortally wounded by it, they just thought it was a little patronizing. I think high school kids are super-attuned to phoneys and patronizing. It's not so much the words but tone of voice and whether you are acknowledging them when you are saying it or just talking like they aren't there or they don't understand English.

I realize that it must look like I'm giving a pass to a coach and nailing an official so here's a worse thing that a coach has been doing for a couple of years now. A private school has taken to mumbling nasty things to my players under their breath, I'm guessing to try to make my players lose control. It's been three years now and the things being said are mysteriously similar (from my players' reports) and always flirt with race without being totally overt. The coach has been the common denomonator. This continues despite the fact that it has never worked and actually backfired last year when one of my players was better at it and one of their players shoved him.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:51 AM]

I realize that it must look like I'm giving a pass to a coach and nailing an official so here's a worse thing that a coach has been doing for a couple of years now. A private school has taken to mumbling nasty things to my players under their breath, I'm guessing to try to make my players lose control. It's been three years now and the things being said are mysteriously similar (from my players' reports) and always flirt with race without being totally overt. The coach has been the common denomonator. This continues despite the fact that it has never worked and actually backfired last year when <b>one of my players was better at it and one of their players shoved him</b>.

[/B][/QUOTE]It "backfired"?

"One of my players was <b>better</b> at it"?

I'll bet you're real proud of that one.

Yo, bebanovich, guess what lofty humanist made the following statements in the opening post of this thread?
1: <i>"<b>Coaches</b>, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the players job is to play and compete, <b>not talk or fight</b>."</i>
2) <i>"I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any any potentially incendiary incident, <b>comment</b>, etc., even if it's late in the game and the intent sounds innocent enough, it is worth taking into account that there are two (or more) different cultures out there on the <b>receiving</b> end."</i>
3) <i>"Please don't let an intentional foul or <b>trash talking</b> go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding".</i>

It sure doesn't sound to me that your lofty ideals have got through to your kids if one of them engaged in trash talking and nearly started a fight. Or do your lofty ideals only work one way? Do two wrongs make a right?

Quit using the kids as an excuse for your own behavior. If you want to make a point to the "terrible" refs you get, hey, feel free to do so. Take your chances; it might get you a few calls down the road. That's what the whole purpose of making comments to the officials is anyway, isn't it? But please don't try to portray yourself to be something else than what you are-- just another coach who pays lip service to sportsmanship while trying to get an edge for his team by yapping at officials. Unfortunately, there's a million of 'em out there just like you, and every one of 'em is just as willing as you to rationalize away their behavior too.

Feel free to tell me now how I've just misconstrued everything that you've said. That's pretty much SOP too. Unfortunately, I smelled it and called it too.

It "backfired"?

"One of my players was <b>better</b> at it"?

I'll bet you're real proud of that one.

Yo, bebanovich, guess what lofty humanist made the following statements in the opening post of this thread?
1: <i>"<b>Coaches</b>, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the players job is to play and compete, <b>not talk or fight</b>."</i>
2) <i>"I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any any potentially incendiary incident, <b>comment</b>, etc., even if it's late in the game and the intent sounds innocent enough, it is worth taking into account that there are two (or more) different cultures out there on the <b>receiving</b> end."</i>
3) <i>"Please don't let an intentional foul or <b>trash talking</b> go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding".</i>

It sure doesn't sound to me that your lofty ideals have got through to your kids if one of them engaged in trash talking and nearly started a fight. Or do your lofty ideals only work one way? Do two wrongs make a right?

Quit using the kids as an excuse for your own behavior. If you want to make a point to the "terrible" refs you get, hey, feel free to do so. Take your chances; it might get you a few calls down the road. That's what the whole purpose of making comments to the officials is anyway, isn't it? But please don't try to portray yourself to be something else than what you are-- just another coach who pays lip service to sportsmanship while trying to get an edge for his team by yapping at officials. Unfortunately, there's a million of 'em out there just like you, and every one of 'em is just as willing as you to rationalize away their behavior too.

Feel free to tell me now how I've just misconstrued everything that you've said. That's pretty much SOP too. Unfortunately, I smelled it and called it too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

OK, I'll bite and respond to one of your posts. Neither I, nor anyone besides the player who pushed, heard my player talking trash. I heard about it later from my player and I took action. I still privately find the justice of it amusing. Your judgment about me has been made so I needn't say more about this.

I still privately find the <b>justice</b> of it <b>amusing</b>. Your judgment about me has been made so I needn't say more about this.
[/B][/QUOTE]Yup, one of your players was better at trash-talking than an opponent and almost started a brawl..... and you privately find that <b>"amusing"</b>.

You certainly can say that I've made my judgement about you. It ain't pretty either. The sad part is that there are so many people just like you that are involved in coaching these days. Great with words; not very good with actions that really mean anything though.

Carry on deluding yourself.

This is kind of an ironic statement considering the only thing you really know about me are my words. Let me just say that, yes, my students sometimes have outbursts and I try to deal with them the best I can both preventatively and after the fact. I occasionally handle things poorly although it has been a long time since I lost my cool outside of rush-hour traffic in the privacy of my own obscenity-filled car. I try to admit to myself, and here, when I think I have handled things poorly. Others may disagree with my standards.

Now that you have clearly established your feelings about me, please refrain from repeated posts about my complete lack of character, ethics, honesty, etc. I think your opinion about my general lack of professional competence and general hackery have been duly established and thread-stalking is not necessary.

I do not mind the occasional exchange that involves the virtual sticking-out of tongues but generally feels like a sense of humor lurks underneath - Dan_ref comes to mind here but I maybe offbase. This feels likes somethings else entirely and I think in future exchanges with each other we should both stick closely to the spirit of the topic being discussed and not look for ways to drag out a personal grudge. Judge my ideas harshly of course, but please stick to my ideas and I will extend the same to you.

bebanovich,

First of all you made a stereotype that was inaccurate and out of line. You assumed that some kids from a specific area are the only ones that are willing to fight or are willing to behave in a bad way. Those are the comments I have a problem with. Then you tried to use Bill Cosby to back that up as if Bill Cosby has any credibility with the African-American community on this issue. Ever heard of Michael Dyson (Professor and Author)? He wrote a book addressing the many issues that Cosby raised and is widely in disagreement with Cosby as well as many other African-American scholars and leaders that took Cosby on. Knowing this does not make me an expert but I am related to an individual that writes about race and teaches racial issues in her day job as a college professor. I can tell you that much of the African-American Scholar community thought Cosby was out of line much like your comments. Many of the problems that take place in the Black community are no different than any other community. We have a violent society, not just violent communities.

Peace

Let me start with the Bill Cosby issue because I don't want it to get lost. I definitely did not bring him up initially, nor can I ever imagine a case where I would cite him as an expert. The idea that I tried to use him to back anything up just isn't right. It did happen on this thread but it wasn't me. My main point about him was I'm glad he's concerned about the issue, he has a right to speak, but being Black does not make him an expert on this or a "Black leader."

I have also heard the name Michael Dyson but have not read his work. I plan to go take a look at his books today - thanks for the recommendation. One more point about race and expertise. . . obviously being of a majority races does put a cap on ones' credibility. I can read all the books I want and work with as many kids as I want and have as many conversations as I want but I can't replace the knowledge that comes with experience. I just wanted to make the point that people should really understand and own their ideas about race rather than find a mysteriously appointed "Black leader" like Bill Cosby to speak for them.

As far as stereotyping, it certainly wasn't my intention to imply that only kids from a certain area are capable of or willing to behave badly. I have also tried to point out repeatedly that my kids didn't and, in general don't, behave badly. I was trying to point out that sliding standards can be disheartening and insensitive to cultural differences - especially in cases like this. In can also be a bad idea when culture, class, etc. is not an issue, but that wasn't my purpose in posting.

In the course of naming the thread (something I'm pretty crappy at) and in making some generalities based on conversations and experiences with my kids I have generated and, judging from the content of a few posts, definitely encouraged stereotyping. For that I apologize.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 04:01 PM]

This is kind of an ironic statement considering the only thing you really know about me are my words.

Now that you have clearly established your feelings about me, please refrain from repeated posts about my complete lack of character, ethics, honesty, etc.

This feels likes somethings else entirely and I think in future exchanges with each other we should both stick closely to the spirit of the topic being discussed and not look for ways to drag out a personal grudge.
[/B][/QUOTE] Your words are good enough for me. From them, I do kinda know you and I know what you're like. As long as you keep up your interminable and insufferable nonsense about being the new White Shadow that's here to save all the poor black kids from themselves, then don't expect a free pass from me. One kid losing his temper sureashell doesn't make it a racial trait. It makes him a teenager at a tough stage of his growing-up. Kids mature at different rates. I've seen a ton of this type of kid over the years- of every possible description imaginable too. The only thing that they had in common was that they're all <b>individuals</b> ,and there really is no need to stereotype <b>any</b> of them- no matter what color they are. Some are great kids; some are azzholes. Hopefully, the great kids stay great and the azzholes grow out of it. Unfortunately, some don't- but that ain't because of their color. It's what's inside the kid, not on the surface. Quit making excuses for your kids and give 'em a little more credit. Let 'em be themselves. Believe it or not, they might just amaze the hell outa you by the way that they do act in a tough situation.

It ain't personal with me either, bebanovich. My personal trait is that I just have a low tolerance for boolsh*t in all it's various forms.

End of my rant too.

OK, thanks for this. I don't think I've saved anyone and I hope my kids give my a swift verbal kick if this is how I come across to them.

One problem with the above . . .
there was no temper tantrum for me to make an excuse for - for any reason.

The fact that one of my team leaders braced for the worst and the offended player had an evil thought or two but took no action except to calmly drain one freethrow assure me everything was OK and then, well, miss the second freethrow, were very positive and my point was only that, while the fans, the opponent and the officials were sharing a chuckle, my kids were not feeling like they were part of this little party.

I agree with pretty much everything else you say in your post.

Well the fact that I am Black and I deal with Black people on a regular basis of all classes and backgrounds might not make me an expert, but it makes me more knowledgeable than someone that only sees Black people at a sporting event or at one time of the day.

Leaders are people ask to lead. Martin Luther King was a leader because people in the Black Southern Community asked him to lead. King was not the only voice in the Black community across the country. Remember there were other leaders like Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party that took very different points of view than King's non-violence stance. So there has never been one person that is considered "the leader." Cosby is just a celebrity that is in my opinion out of touch with what goes on in today's society because he has been far removed from the people he was so critical of.

BTW, here are some of Dyson's books so you get some idea of what he writes about.

Michael Dyson's Books

Of course you said your kids did not do anything, but your post started with a comment that suggests your kids are the exception. That is what I was taking you to task about. Violence is not a cultural issue. If I am not mistaken we have had nothing but white Presidents and many of them have made decisions that caused the death of more people than a community ever has in a 4 year period. Call it what you will but violence is something a lot of people in different cultures advocate violence and engage in violence. There was a time in this country when certain groups of people could die if they whistled at the wrong color women or if they tried to vote. I do not see poor communities and the people that live in them as any different or special than the terrorism that was inflected on people of color long before Al Quada was known.

Peace

You know your kids better than I do, but I also know kids aren't perfect judges of character or intent. They can make rash judgments just as easily, even more easily, than adults. Of course, I can only go by the words you reported and have no way of hearing tone, body language, etc.
My only point is this, one can easily find offense in virtually anything someone says if he is looking for it.

I realized this may have come across as sarcastic. Just meant that, even though your post was based on a misunderstanding of the facts of the incident, I agree with most of your sentiments.

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells You know your kids better than I do, but I also know kids aren't perfect judges of character or intent. They can make rash judgments just as easily, even more easily, than adults. Of course, I can only go by the words you reported and have no way of hearing tone, body language, etc. My only point is this, one can easily find offense in virtually anything someone says if he is looking for it.

Agreed. But people also do reveal their low-expectations and kids often smell it from a mile. I didn't happen to think this one was a hard call and I wasn't looking to be offended by anything - it kind of smacked me in the face when I was tired and ready to drive home. Apparently my captain was smacked too.

Nope, my post wasn't based on any misunderstanding of the facts on my part at all. I based my opinion entirely on what you wrote.

OPPS!!!
 

I put that link to Bill Cosby's statements. OPPS!

I originally went out to google Bill Cosby to find him doing a Jello commercial. I found the "Jello" posts to be humorous. But, instead found the one I linked to........you know the rest of the story.

OPPS!

I don't see much difference in games between kids from whatever area they are from. I think the coaches attitude and actions are reflected by the players. When you have a coach who whines about calls and yells all the time at his kids, 99% of the time you have a team who whines and cries about calls and parents who make fools of themselves in the stands. When a kid has a good coach who understands the game and understands kids, you will normally have a respectful group of kids who play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Poor rural areas, poor inner city, rich suburbs, rich private schools, it doesn't matter. If the players have good role models in their coaches they are usually OK.

Maybe it's just my location and my perception, but by far the worst parents for riding officials are the ones from the private academies (not the private religious schools).
Must be the sense of entitlement they have from paying those exorbinant tuitions.