If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

Why are you even asking?
 

You know what? All I can tell you is this.

Go out and do your absolute best. Those who like it, great. Those who don't, so what.

ARE you serious, huum this sounds like some fan who is unhappy. Any ref knows you go out and call what you see, as long as you are working hard and calling what you see I don't think anyone can complain, well they can but shouldn't.

You answered your own question when you said the referee saw it. According to the rules, that means it should be called. What's your point?

[B]HUH? Are you a ref? If so, where? I would really like to know, so I can stay far far away!

When you're making the call you how do you know if no one else saw it? You have your integrity to think about.

Here are 2 anedoctal stories just to let you know you should always do the right thing when you're on the court.

1) A friend of mine was in their 2nd year of officiating and doing a little kids Rec League game out in the boonies. Turns out an NBA ref was there to watch his child play. After the game NBA Ref came up to my friend, introduced himself, and said he would be glad to come out one day and evaluate. My friend emailed him their schedule and one day out the blue NBA Ref showed up at what has to be the worst adult rec league in the area. The 2 became good friends and now my friend in just their 5th season of officiating has worked their way into 4 NCAA conferences, including one D1.

2) Some of the local HS games are televised on the city educational channels (with announcers). I'm working a BV (3-man) in the trail. A1 drives to the hole. As A1 passes the free throw line I whistle A2 for a block b/c in an attempt to slide over and set a screen he got there late and his left foot tripped defender B1. The home crowd and coach react in bewilderment at my call. A2 walks over to me in front of the table and says "Good call Ref". When I watch the videotape of the game the play-by-play man reacts in the same bewilderment at my call and says I made a phantom call. Then a few seconds later his partner says "yeah but the player just walked up to the ref and said good call; guess the only 2 people in the gym who knew it was a good call were the player and the ref". Close examination of the replay also verified that I made the correct call.

Moral of the stories: Always do the right thing, you never know who's watching or who's filming.

The original question reminds me of (sorry Padgett) an international soccer match a couple years ago. I can't remember if it was in the World Cup or the Olympics. But the ref called a penalty kick in the final minutes of the match, b/c (he claimed) the player was held while dribbling toward the goal. The guy made the penalty kick and his team won.

Well, the ref was blasted by everyone. Papers, TV, the guy became a national enemy of the team that lost. Then, about 3 weeks later, one newspaper ran a picture from an angle that no one had seen. And it clearly showed the guy's jersey being held and pulled while he was trying to dribble.

Nobody in the stadium or on TV saw the foul. But the ref did. He called it, took a lot of heat, and then was vindicated.

I think that might help to answer your question. Anybody remember what game that was?

No.

You can't even remember what mailing list to use in your email client. I thought maybe Nevada would remember.

You can't even remember what mailing list to use in your email client. [/B][/QUOTE]Good point.....unfortunately. I have no comeback and also acknowldege that my chastisement was fair and deserving.

Good point.....unfortunately. I have no comeback and also acknowldege that my chastisement was fair and deserving.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Uh, JR, is that really you?

Hey, who took the grumpy ol' curmudgeon and left this apologizing, wimpy little poster?!?

(Btw, where's my check?)

psycho hasn't been back, so I'm still not sure what the intent of the original post was. But I'm gonna have to agree with most everyone here - if it's a legitimate call, call it. It shouldn't matter who else might or might not have seen it.

I guess the question should be, why wouldn't you call it?

To please the players, coaches, and crowd?

Certainly can't please everyone in most situations, so hit your whistle, get the foul and move on. I agree with Mark... it's your job, so do it. :)

If I call it, it was a foul. If I don't call it, it wasn't a foul. Simple as that. Doesn't matter who sees it.

Thanks.
 

Thanks for the replies. No point to my question really. Not even sure if it was a question. Just a thought to contemplate. I guess a lot of referees misinterpret ideologies and concepts like "the advantage/disadvantage" and "calling the obvious".

I was actually hoping that some of you would say "if no one felt it then there was no advantage/disadvantage", or "if it wasn't obvious then you should pass on it". Quite frankly I can still see those arguments coming into play using those concepts as justification. Does anyone think these concepts are a good justification?

If the shooter never felt it and doesn't think it is a foul then how can it be disadvantageous?

Someone will say, "how do you know he/she didn't feel it. (for the sake of this philosophical argument lets assume we can read minds).

If there is no victim is there a crime?

I think the question was more of a life question than anything. Sort of "what if you knew you were right and everyone in the world was wrong?". Just a thought. Thanks for the replies.

You have truly chosen the correct username.

Uh, JR, is that really you?

Hey, who took the grumpy ol' curmudgeon and left this apologizing, wimpy little poster?!? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yup, if this was JR, he'd have said to the OP, "You think too much.."

Of course, I've got your back here Chuck.

U.S. Soccer’s Director of Advanced and International Referee Development Esse Baharmast was the Referee.

Here's a clip from an article about him that mentions the contest you inquired about:

"In addition to currently serving as an instructor and assessor, Baharmast was the first American to referee two games in a World Cup, when he did so at the World Cup in France in 1998. In a first-round game between Norway and Brazil he was widely criticized for a penalty kick call, but then later celebrated when photographers' photos showed the shirt-pulling that the TV cameras had not picked up."

Here is a good recap of the story. Give it look. It's a great read.

http://www.canoe.ca/SoccerWCNews/jul10_ref.html<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Re: Thanks.
 

How do you misinterpret what you see?

Re: Re: Thanks.
 

Your eyes have never "played tricks" on you? ;)

Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

Lol. Yes, only when I'm without my Coke bottle eyeglasses.

Re: Thanks.
 

I used to do this trick with people to illustrate a point - I would get right up in front of them and put my fingertip ever so close to their nose. As I kept my finger there, about a millimeter from their nose, I would ask them if I'm touching them. Of course they would say no. Then I would say, "Yes I am", and point at my feet, which were up against their feet. The point being people sometimes concentrate so much on one thing, they're not aware of anything else. I think that's why many defenders look so amazed when a foul is called on them while they're trying to block a shot - they are concentrating so much on that ball, they're simply not aware their body collided with the shooter as well.

I guess my point in all this is don't take a player's word that they didn't feel contact - use <B>your eyes</B> to determine if contact occured, and if that contact caused the disadvantage.

Thanks.
 

LOL. Thanks.

Juulie once made this point a while ago. She just pointed out that the defenders usually truly believe that they did not contact the shooter. It's not that they're arguing whether or not the contact was a foul. They really believe that they "never touched him".

Realizing this has made dealing with the defender's outburst a little easier for me. I'm not sure why, but it has.

Re: Re: Thanks.
 

I like this!! I don't know if I"ll use it in a game (lol!), but it's a good thing to think about.

However, it doesn't address whether the shooter feels the defender hit him. Usually, the shooter will have the opposite and feel contact when it doesn't exist, or when it's very slight.

If a shooter really, truly didn't feel anything, I'd probably be ruling it incidental contact.

Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

So, um, how do you do this? Do you blow the whistle first, then ask? Then, if they tell you they didn't feel anything, do you just say IW and go to POI? Or do just try to slide up next to the shooter and ask them unobtrusively during the play? ;)

Just messin' with 'ya. All this talk about pudding has made me hungry and semi-grumpy.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

Okay, you and JR can have that little table over in the corner, you get the blue chair with the puppy on the back, and JR can have the green chair with the kite. And please don't spill on the carpet!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

I want the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

<B>No!</B> I want the blue chair!

Nyah, nyah, Juulie likes me better!

Then I'm gonna cut you into 742 pieces with those dull scissors that they give us to cut paper with, and I'm gonna bury all those pieces in the sand box.

And.....then I'll sit on the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

Ahh...His Curmudgeoness is back.

I'm taking my sippy cup and going home. You can have that ugly ol' blue chair anyways.

I'm not sure how you're gonna be able to eat any more jello pudding with that cool looking mask on all the time. Good luck.

http://cache.eonline.com/Features/Aw...92.silence.jpg

I know where you live.

How? Dan hasn't put his ID on the Frapper map yet. . . Coincindentally, neither have you.

If I did, <b>they</b> would come and get me.

And take you away, ha ha, ho ho, hee hee, to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time, and you'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean, white coats, and they're coming to take you away, ha ha!

(Apologies to Napoleon XIV and Dr. Demento)

Aw, go on, just put your spot on the map.

I won't tell <B>them</B>, I promise.

No way, that's what <b>they</b> all say.

If I didn't call it, it might have happened. If I called it, it happened. I have more patience with folks who don't like what I didn't call... as opposed to what I did call.

Re: Re: Re: Thanks.
 

I'd say that if a shooter is extremely focussed on the shot rather than drawing a foul, he may not necessarily notice that his shot has been made more difficult by the contact.