Call what you see

Time2Ref · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 12:12am

As a rookie, I learn something every game.

I over-ruled my partner on a traveling call. He was behind the play on a loose ball. A1 went to the floor and recovered the ball. He started dribbling the ball while on the floor, then proceeded to get up. My partner called traveling. Without thinking, I corrected his call. I went over to him and explained that this kid started dribbling the ball while on the ground. You can't travel while you are dribbling the ball. This seemed to upset him to no end. He proceeded to tell me about the experienced refs that he had worked with and how I would be "eaten alive" by varsity coaches if I made that call. Apparently, I embarassed him in front of everyone.

I learned that the real matter was that the ball was in his area. Even though I saw what the real call should be, I was at fault for not keeping my eyes in my own area. It seems that I was "ball hawking".

What is more important? Watching an area of the court where there are no players, or making sure that the game is called fairly?

Is it really that bad to be over-ruled?

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 12:47am

First of all you cannot over-rule another official. You can only offer information that might make them decide what to call. It is possible that your partner saw something (on the travel) that you did not see.

What is important is for you to watch your area and only to look outside of your area when there are competitive match-ups not in your area. All officials cannot watch the ball all day, because there is a lot in the game of basketball with the other players. Trust your partner to call their game. I know if it was me and I called (like a travel) something and you come in and tell me to change it, there is almost no way I am changing the call. These are judgment calls, you cannot change judgment call. If there is a rule situation that is different, but you cannot change something that is a judgment call. You also are not going to make many friends "over-ruling" officials either.

Peace

ref18 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 01:56am

The only times you should really offer information to help your partner change a call is if you're 100% sure that it was a 2 instead of a 3 or vice versa, or who last touched the ball on an OOB, provided it was not on the other side of the court from where you were standing. There might be another situation, but it's late and i can't think of one.

We live or die by judgement calls and the only time there should be discussion amoungst the crew on how to rule on a judgement call will be in the event of a double whistle.

You should not be telling your partner that it wasn't a travel. If you're going to discuss it, it will be in the locker room, at half/end of game, or in the bar after the game.

To do so on the court makes your partner look bad, and you look bad. And in this line of work, our partner is the only one we can trust out there, so I would be trying to make them look as good as possible.

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 06:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref

Is it really that bad to be over-ruled?

Um....well....yeah, kinda.....

NFHS Rule 2-6:
OFFICIAL'S AUTHORITY: No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties.

Iow, don't do that. Ever.

The rules won't let any official over-rule another official at any time. As has already been said, the only official that can change a call is the official that made the call. You can give information to that official, but you can never over-rule their call.

JugglingReferee · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 06:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref
As a rookie, I learn something every game.

This is a very good attitude to have. You are a sponge and you need to continue to absorb information, some of which is game management elements.

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref
I over-ruled my partner on a traveling call. He was behind the play on a loose ball. A1 went to the floor and recovered the ball. He started dribbling the ball while on the floor, then proceeded to get up. My partner called traveling. Without thinking, I corrected his call. I went over to him and explained that this kid started dribbling the ball while on the ground. You can't travel while you are dribbling the ball.

You mention that you corrected his call. You say that you went over to him, and explained what you saw ("the kid started to dribble while on the ground"). Are you saying that by expressing your opinion to him, you corrected the call?

If so, I think you should be informed that the call is only corrected if the original team gets the ball back for a throw-in, essentially ruling that the whistle was inadvertant. In order to do that, an official needs to blow his whistle, and point in the other (original) direction (of play). The mechanics are that the calling official does this. He'll also need to explain to both coaches what is going on, and get the ball back in play quickly. Did you blow your whistle and point in the other direction?

If you are not saying that your expressing your opinion to your partner is not correcting the call, then how exactly did you correct the call?

*

Secondly, when you mention, "You can't travel while you are dribbling the ball," are you telling us that this is an always true statement, or was that part of yor explanation to the other official? The way I ready your sentence, the reader could infer either case. (I do not believe your intent was to infer both cases simultaneously.)

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref
This seemed to upset him to no end. He proceeded to tell me about the experienced refs that he had worked with and how I would be "eaten alive" by varsity coaches if I made that call. Apparently, I embarassed him in front of everyone.

I'm willing to bet that your approach to him caused him to be upset. As mentioned, the way to approach your P is to run over to him, and offer information. "Jim, did you see the ball carrier start a dribble while on the ground, then get up?"

From there, let him decide, and support him 100%. 100% on the court and 100% off the court.

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref
I learned that the real matter was that the ball was in his area. Even though I saw what the real call should be, I was at fault for not keeping my eyes in my own area. It seems that I was "ball hawking".

What is more important? Watching an area of the court where there are no players, or making sure that the game is called fairly?

Is it really that bad to be over-ruled?

Trust your partner. Do not ball hawk. If there are no players in your area of responsibility, yes, you can watch an area where there are players.

It's just as much how you talk to you partner, now what you say.

Rich · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 08:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
The only times you should really offer information to help your partner change a call is if you're 100% sure that it was a 2 instead of a 3 or vice versa, or who last touched the ball on an OOB, provided it was not on the other side of the court from where you were standing. There might be another situation, but it's late and i can't think of one.

We live or die by judgement calls and the only time there should be discussion amoungst the crew on how to rule on a judgement call will be in the event of a double whistle.

You should not be telling your partner that it wasn't a travel. If you're going to discuss it, it will be in the locker room, at half/end of game, or in the bar after the game.

To do so on the court makes your partner look bad, and you look bad. And in this line of work, our partner is the only one we can trust out there, so I would be trying to make them look as good as possible.

We had a play last week (2-person) where the ball shot out of bounds, clearly deflected, on my partner's sideline in transition. He didn't see the deflection and signaled.

On that situation, we have an understanding that the other will tweet the whistle a few times and signal the other way and the original caller won't even get involved other than to acknowledge he missed the tip.

We wouldn't do that when there's a potential double tip or anything like that, just on an obvious tip in the open floor.

A travel? Shoot, I couldn't be bothered to get involved. Why would one possession be worth (1) the flow of the game or (2) the credibility of the crew?

robertclasalle · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 08:49am

I agree, we can't overrule, but some diplomacy and tact always goes a long way. It's all in the delivery. One other thing that needs to be said is this: if your partner comes to you like that, in the middle of the play, be receptive to what he has to say. Don't let your hormones get in the way. Let's not forget, it's not about us, it's about them (the players), it's their game, let's try to get the call right. I blew a call about 2 weeks ago and beat myself up over it. I could have fixed it immediately, but didn't, because I would have made myself look bad. Next time, I'm fixing it. I always tell a new partner in a pre-game, if you see something I miss, even if in my area of responsibility, call it, you'll never hear me complain that you should not be making calls in my area. Also, I agree with this thread title, "Call what you see," and add "and don't call what you don't see."

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 10:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by robertclasalle
I agree, we can't overrule, but some diplomacy and tact always goes a long way. It's all in the delivery. One other thing that needs to be said is this: if your partner comes to you like that, in the middle of the play, be receptive to what he has to say. Don't let your hormones get in the way. Let's not forget, it's not about us, it's about them (the players), it's their game, let's try to get the call right. I blew a call about 2 weeks ago and beat myself up over it. I could have fixed it immediately, but didn't, because I would have made myself look bad. Next time, I'm fixing it. I always tell a new partner in a pre-game, if you see something I miss, even if in my area of responsibility, call it, you'll never hear me complain that you should not be making calls in my area. Also, I agree with this thread title, "Call what you see," and add "and don't call what you don't see."

What makes you think that you are right and your partner is wrong in those situations? You should be trying to get the call right on the initial call, not getting it right after the call is made. We all make mistakes and some things are up for debate, but not on the floor. Not a travel call or a double dribble call. I have no problem with offering information, but what if your partner completely disagrees with you and saw something else?

Peace

ChuckElias · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 11:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
On that situation, we have an understanding that the other will tweet the whistle a few times and signal the other way and the original caller won't even get involved other than to acknowledge he missed the tip.

Wow, this post is over 3 hours old, and JR hasn't bothered to yell about it yet!

Dan_ref · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
On that situation, we have an understanding that the other will tweet the whistle a few times and signal the other way and the original caller won't even get involved other than to acknowledge he missed the tip.

Wow, this post is over 3 hours old, and JR hasn't bothered to yell about it yet!

Quote:

A travel? Shoot, I couldn't be bothered to get involved. Why would one possession be worth (1) the flow of the game or (2) the credibility of the crew?

I'm surprised you posted without taking exception to this.

robertclasalle · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by robertclasalle
I agree, we can't overrule, but some diplomacy and tact always goes a long way. It's all in the delivery. One other thing that needs to be said is this: if your partner comes to you like that, in the middle of the play, be receptive to what he has to say. Don't let your hormones get in the way. Let's not forget, it's not about us, it's about them (the players), it's their game, let's try to get the call right. I blew a call about 2 weeks ago and beat myself up over it. I could have fixed it immediately, but didn't, because I would have made myself look bad. Next time, I'm fixing it. I always tell a new partner in a pre-game, if you see something I miss, even if in my area of responsibility, call it, you'll never hear me complain that you should not be making calls in my area. Also, I agree with this thread title, "Call what you see," and add "and don't call what you don't see."

What makes you think that you are right and your partner is wrong in those situations? You should be trying to get the call right on the initial call, not getting it right after the call is made. We all make mistakes and some things are up for debate, but not on the floor. Not a travel call or a double dribble call. I have no problem with offering information, but what if your partner completely disagrees with you and saw something else?

Peace

Then let it go. And I never said I was right and my partner was wrong. I said, be tactful, discuss it, try to fix it if possible. But, if possible, get it right. And if we all got the call right to begin with, then we could close this web site. And I respectfully diaagree, even a travel or double dribble could take a team out of a title game, we owe it to them to get it right, even "on the floor." (IMHO)

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 09:30pm

Every possession counts.

Rich · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 24, 2006, 09:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Every possession counts.

No more so than the 35 times the team turned it over

Time2Ref · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 27, 2006, 09:12pm

Thank you all for your thoughful comments. I learned even more after reading them.

I called him up a couple of times, but never received anything except voicemail. I left a message with a sincere appology and thanked him for the professional way that he handled it. I left my number but told him that he wasn't obligated to call me back. Never did here from him. I mentioned it to the assigner, but he already knew about it.

It bothered me for a while, but the time came to learn the lesson and let it go.

Thanks again.

rainmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 28, 2006, 12:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Time2Ref
I called him up a couple of times, but never received anything except voicemail. I left a message with a sincere appology and thanked him for the professional way that he handled it. I left my number but told him that he wasn't obligated to call me back. Never did here from him. I mentioned it to the assigner, but he already knew about it.

I'm guessing he's kind of a jerk who doesn't know how to correct a newbie, any more than you knew how to "correct" him. But you're learning, and he's apparently "past that" -- not in a good way. I just hope that your assignor knows who's who, and who isn't.

Don't worry. You could never be as bad as I was in my first few years. If I can develop to the point of being a creditable ref, so can you. (ask rockyroad, if you don't believe me...) The key is to "keep learning" which you've already figured out, so you're in business.