In general I think I understand the rule that you need team possession to call the time-out, unless it's a dead ball situation. Usually in late game situations, the team from behind will try to call a timeout right after the make. With my teams, I've usually instructed the players to call for Time as the ball is falling through and, if the situation permits me, I might try to let the official know I'll be calling it right after the make.

Question is this. Assume Team A just made the basket. At what point is Team B in possession? Assume player B5 grabs the ball as soon as it's out of the net, and it takes about a second or so to get behind the baseline. Does a call for time by team A get granted in that period? How late can such a request be granted?

I'm not as good at navigating the rules and case books as the rest of you, but if you could point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.

Once it's at the disposal of Team B, Team A should not be granted a timeout.

Basically if the official is counting 5 seconds then it is to late. So yes you may be granted a timeout while the player is running out of bounds to start the throw in.

If the ball is laying beneath the basket and Team B chooses not to pick it up then the official will start the 5 second count and you would not be able to call a timeout during this time.

I disagree with the last statement. The 5 second count would have nothing to do with team control. As long as B has not picked up the ball I will allow the TO JMHO

Basically, once the ball has checked the nets, the coach has a chance to call timeout before the ball is picked up by the offense. If team B has posession of the right after it checks the nets, no time out. Possession is gained once the team has "control" of the ball. Coaches know this and I have seen officials get tricked thinking that they can grant a coach timeout while the ball is in the possesion of the other team before its inbounded.

Huh?
 

I'm not trying to trick anyone.

I just wanna know exactly when between the time the basket is made and when the ball is inbounded can a time out that is requested be granted legitimately.

Problem is each of the three responses differs. :confused:

Re: Huh?
 

When the ball checks the nets, before the other team gets control.

IREF and mine are the same
 

ours don't differ, when B picks up the ball it is in their control and no TO...

Re: Huh?
 

There's no "exact" definition -- it's the official's judgment as to when the ball is at the disposal of the (new) inbounding team. That's the time when the 5-second counts starts and the time the TO can no longer be (properly) requested.

The scoring team can call a time-out after a made basket while the ball is dead up to the time that the ball is in control of or at the disposal of the team that was just scored on. Rule 5-8-3. Iow, the scoring team cannot call a time-out when the ball becomes live again. The ball becomes live on a throw-in after a made basket when it is at the <b>disposal</b> of the thrower. For the definition of "disposal", see case book play 6.1.2SitB.

<b>Casebook play 6.1.2 SITUATION B:</b>
Team A1 has just scored a goal. The ball is bouncing close to the end line when A1 calls a time-out.
<b>RULING:</b> In order to rule correctly, it depends on whether the bouncing ball is is judged to be at the thrower's disposal. If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, <b>no</b> time-out is granted.

Iow, if the ball is right under the basket and and a member of the thrower's team picks it up, the scoring team can longer be granted a time-out, by strict reading of the rule. There has been arguments made in previous threads in the past that you should grant the time-out until the thrower actually steps out-of-bounds, but I've never seen any rules citation that would back that interpretation up. If the ball bounces away from under the basket towards the other end, I would definitely grant the time-out though. I don't think that the purpose and intent of the rule is to have a 5-second count going while a player is walking in from the free-throw line to the end line. Also personally, if the ball is bouncing around and nobody on the throwing team has grabbed it yet, I'll grant the TO; if questioned, I'll just say that I didn't think it was at the throwing team's disposal yet.

Re: IREF and mine are the same
 

My bad! I misunderstood your original comment. I thought you were disagreeing with the last sentence of All_Heart's reply referring to picking up the ball lying beneath the basket, not the whole statement itself.

no problem man...

Thanks JR
 

Thanks JR. Appreciate the references.

Like I said earlier, I think the best approach is to make sure my players have the game presence to request the time out early, often, and loudly and the ball is falling through the net, before it makes it completely through.

Is it appropriate should the situation allow (e.g. dead ball with official nearby) to make the official aware that we'll be calling for the TO after the make?

Yup, it's not only appropriate, it's good coaching imo. If you can warn the officials that you want one, then they can anticipate your request. Note that you and/or your players will still have to make the request though. If your kids do, tell 'em to use the "T" signal for the time-out. That's a heckuva lot easier for an official to recognize immediately - as opposed to a verbal request, especially a verbal request in a noisy gym.

Good advice. Thanks again JR.

Yes you can call a time out
 

The ball becomes live when the ball is in possesion of the thrower of the other team for a throw in. In camp we covered that the rule states (5-8-3b)that a timeout can occur by either team when the ball is dead. When does the ball become live??? Rule 6-1-b says when it at the disposal of the thrower.

So, during that brief time between the made basket and the ball being OUT OF BOUNDS in the possesion of the thrower, a timeout can be granted. While the ball is in bounds bounds even if the throwing team has the ball in a players hands, the ball is still dead. There is no team possesion. All timeout and foul situations comply with this.

[Edited by Damian on Feb 24th, 2006 at 12:01 AM]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Re: Yes you can call a time out
 

Oh my....

Damian, that's a very basic rule that you've got wrong. It's already been cited above too. Again:

Rule6-1-2(b)- "The ball becomes <b>live</b> when it is at the disposal of the thrower".

You couldn't be more wrong. Please read the case book play above too. The NCAA rule is the same also re: when the ball becomes live.

"at the disposal of the thrower" agreeing with JR.

So I ask you
 

My first response had a typo in it. I meant to say "While the ball is in bounds", not out of bounds and the player is holding the ball. Sorry for the mistake. But, the rest still remains.

If the person is in bounds and has not taken the ball out of bounds how can he be the thrower? He may toss it to a teammate to throw in, or wait before taking the ball out of bounds to become the thrower. The ball is still dead and either team can call a timeout. Now, if he delays, and the official starts the 5 second count, then at that time the ball is considered live and only the offensive team can call the timeout.

[Edited by Damian on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 11:59 PM]

Re: So I ask you
 

Forget about <b>who</b> the thrower is. It's completely irrelevant. You can have several throwers after a made basket.

Rule 6-7-2(b) sez that the ball becomes <b>live</b> when it's at the disposal of the thrower. In the case book play already cited(6.1.2SitB(a)), the ball is <b>in-bounds and is at the disposal of the thrower</b>. The RULING sez that the ball becomes live at that time and <b>NO</b> time-out can be granted to the <b>scoring</b> team. Note also the sentence in the COMMENT that sez "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined that the ball is <b>available</b>". Not "out-of-bounds", Damian, <b>"available"</b>. That sentence holds true for all non-designated spot throw-ins.

Iow, you're completely ignoring what's written in the books. In practise, it's true that most officials (including myself) will wait for whoever picks the ball up to get OOB before starting a 5-second count. But....most officials in my experience also won't grant a TO request by the scoring team if it's made <b>after</b> someone on the throwing team has grabbed the ball- unless the ball had bounced up-court and there was gonna be an unusual delay getting it OOB.

OK. I agree
 

Just wish the people that runs clinics would get it right before telling us the rules. That's why I still come here.

Re: OK. I agree
 

Or.....to put it another way.....because you come here, maybe <b>you</b> should be running the clinics. :)

I will allow a timeout by the scoring team until the team making the throwin has picked up the ball and is in a position where they could make a legal throwin or has had enough time to be in such a position. That point is synchronous with the start of the 5 second count. If you disallow the timeout earlier, you must also start the 5 count earlier....leaving the throwing team will less than 5 seconds for the actual throwin.

Re: Thanks JR
 

Two points:

(1) Since the rule was introduced that allows coaches to call a TO, I have never seen a player call a TO except to avoid a held ball or OOB. If your players call TO's in other situations, that is rare. I think that the rule has virtually eliminated the players from being involved in end-of-game thinking and decision-making. It used to be that your captains were real "leaders" out there and now they just show up for the pre-game instructions. That is too bad.

(2) I have never seen a TO denied in these situations. The interpretation is usually that the TO was called by the coach prior to the ball being at the disposal, even though the ball is in the hands of the player OOB.

Re: Re: Thanks JR
 

I've never seen a time-out granted in these situations. Well, I gotta amend that a little. I have seen that type of TO granted-- and I also know that the officials that granted it heard about it later because they screwed up. Officials who are trained properly and know the rules will <b>not</b> grant a timeout unless the request for it is made as per the rule. The rule (5-8-3) states that you can only grant a time-out request when that request is made when the ball is dead or in control of at the disposal of a team. A coach saying that he wants a TO <b>if</b> a FT is made meets neither provision of the rule. It's not our job to help one team out over another out there, especially by ignoring a plainly written rule--which is exactly what you're recommending in this case.

Your interpretation must be a local one, methinks. I don't think that it's the one being widely taught.

Bad advice imo.

Re: Re: Thanks JR
 

I think that is a good point. As a coach, I make an effort to teach my players about game presence. We always coach our players to develop a habit of taking a quick look at the clock at every whistle to make sure they know score, time, bonus, and possession arrow information. This knowledge is crucial to end of game situations. Four little things that take about 5 seconds. For example, if the player knows he has the possession arrow in our favor, he doesn't have to waste a time-out if he gets tied up in a jump ball situation. The goal is to create smart players, although your point is well taken - some coaches have eroded the leadership role of the players on the floor trying to control everything from the sideline.

Personally, I still think it's quicker to have the players call for time instead of the coach. The officials are most focused on the players to begin with and I can only imagine how distracting it must be to have to look back to verify it's me making the call instead of some fool of a fan acting out as a coach wannabe. Don't get me wrong, I'll be calling it out as well, but I think JR makes a good point that in a loud gym, the T sign by a nearby player is the quickest way to get the official's attention anyway.