We don't have a shot clock here in Idaho but do for our neighbor Washington State (30 sec. for girls only). I'm wondering what you guys think? As a coach and new official, I still would like to see the clock.
How many states use the shot clock and please tell me your thoughts. Thanks. |
We have used a shot clock on Long Island, NY for a number of years at the HS level. I think that it is a good thing since it helps prepare the kids for the college game. It s a 35-second clock. In my experience though it is very rare to have a shot clock violation. As a rule, the kids almost never hold onto the ball for that long a period.
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I have officiated women's college basketball for 32 yrs, men's college for thirteen years, and officiated girls' H.S. for two years in California.
NO! NO! NO! The game doesn't need it at any level including NBA/WNBA and FIBA. MTD, Sr. P.S. Get rid of the Alternating Possession and go back to jump balls. |
So, DeNucci, what's your opinion of baseball's designated hitter?
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It is okay for H.S. age and below because it allows more to play, but is not real baseball at the college age and above. MTD, Sr. P.S. Both our sons (ages: 13 and 16) play baseball and consider themselves old school, meaning that they willingly wear their pants in the knickers style. |
Mark
Why do you want to do away with AP and return to jump balls? |
I coach high school boys in California and we have a 35-second clock. I'm not a fan of the shot clock. I rarely see anyone play man-to-man defense in our area because it is harder, in a short time, to consistently move and probe a good zone and low shooting percentages mean that simply shooting over the top of it will be a marginal strategy. Teams zone and run. Maybe I'm just old before my time but I feel like the golden age is gone and the shot clock is largely to blame.
[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 20th, 2006 at 04:37 AM] |
A shot clock in high school?
Hell, we already have enough problems getting the timer to run the score clock properly in some games now. Might be OK for the big schools with serious programs. Some of the others? Shudder...... |
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And you're right, it's an extra headache for the officials at some games, especially in those "rare" instances the shot clock operator doesn't know the rules or is just plain uncoordinated to push the pause or reset buttons. Of course the fans are more than happy to help out with their yelling. :eek: |
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No shot clock, too many headaches all around. |
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Mr. DeNucci:
You've seen the games where the final score is 5-8. Don't you think the shot clock would be better than stalling? I understand that "stalling" is part of the game, but it's a part of the game that makes this great game of basketball boring and in my opinion a long shot clock would help. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Re: Mr. DeNucci:
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Thoughts? |
Re: Mr. DeNucci:
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I would guess that there are a between one million and two million basketball games (boys' and girls'; jr. H.S. and H.S.) played in Canada and the United States each school year using NFHS rules. How many end up with scores like 8-5? Not enough to worry about whether the rules need a shot clock. MTD, Sr. |
Re: Re: Mr. DeNucci:
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I want nothing to do with a shot clock. We have enough timer issues as it is. On a tangential note, I also want nothing to do with stopping the clock on a made basket anytime in the game. Again, we have enough timer issues as it is. --Rich |
Stalling can be pretty risky business unless it is by mutual agreement. A team would have to be pretty sound in the fundamentals to slow the game down against another team's will. If stalling were catching on across the country I would guess that fundamentals would be as well. A few baseball-type scores might not be a horrible price to pay
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We use a 30-second clock in Mass. for high school boys and girls, although there is no 10-second backcourt in the girls game. It's simply no big deal as an official. The few issues with the clock operator usually are with freshmen or JV games -- and they simply do not matter. One league does not use the clock for freshman boys. Again, I don't see it as a big deal either way. I see one to three clock violations in an average game.
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I've seen a few folks in CA respond but to refresh:
35 Seconds for Boys 30 Seconds for Girls plus NO 10 second count in the backcourt I can't really comment on how the shot clock has affected the game for the teams as far as players and coaches go. There are some that run a tight, structured offense that probably would prefer there was no shot clock (to slow down those athletic teams) and there are those athletic teams where a shot goes up 10 seconds into a possession. The biggest effect (as others have said) is for the people running the clocks at the games. The MAJORITY of public school games I have reffed (JV and Varsity) are run by kids. Some times, these kids are good. Most of the game, they are bad. Turning the regular clock on/off, no problem. Shot clock? Good luck trying to do a 1 minute presentation on how the shot clock works and when to reset it. Usually, all you end up saying is this: "If you're not sure, DON'T RESET IT, we'll let you know". The few catholic school games I work, you usually get adults or very good kids working the clocks. |
I have been reffing in 2 states this year. Nevada (no shot clock) and California (with shot clock).
From a personal observation it does change some of the coaching strategy, especially towards the end of the game. In Nevada if the score is close the teams might start fouling with a couple of minutes left in the game. In California, because the team may get a couple of possesions, you see a different strategy. |
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Personally, I've never liked it. Why would you need it in the boys game? There's a ten second count in the backcourt and a five second count in the front court. Let 'em play keep away. It's just strategy. Generally, there aren't many high school teams with enough self-control and/or skill to freeze the ball for very long, anyway. |
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26 Yr.: There was no need to get snotty. We all have opinions about the rules. The rule I would love to see eiliminated is the three second rule. MTD, Sr. |
Mark
Why do you favor getting rid of the AP and returning to jump balls? Just curious... |
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But the shot clock? The arguement seems to be that since there is inadequate training for scorers we should eradicate the shot clock. Here's an idea, since coaches don't understand the rules, lets make "over the back" a foul :D [Edited by Oz Referee on Feb 20th, 2006 at 11:01 PM] |
We use a 30-second shot clock here in Washington state for girls basketball. It makes the game more fast-paced and more enjoyable to ref. I like it. I wish the boys would put in a 40-second clock. I have heard rumors that it is being seriously discussed in our state.
It doesn't take a genius to run the clock. We have had few problems, even at the smaller schools. Besides, an official with good clock management skills has little problem addressing an occasional error by the shot clock operator anyway. I agree that the games that have extremely low scores due to stalling are few and far between. In fact, I can only remember one that I have officiated. But that one was enough to make me a big fan of the shot clock. What a waste of an evening that was. Z |
I still don't understand what the rationale is for the shot-clock in high school. Does anyone know what is being discussed when states or regions discuss adopting it?
Is it to speed up the game for spectators? This seems a rather dubious reason to adjust high school rules and it has helped decrease the instruction of old-fashioned fundamentals in California since its adoption IMO. I also think it's helped contribute to the increase in blow-outs (an issue that was recently featured in our newspaper). Is it to help prepare kids for the college game? As a college coach would you rather have a kid grounded in the fundamentals who had to learn to play faster or a kid who could play fast who had to be grounded in the fundamentals. I realize this is a bit of a strawman but I exaggerate to make a point. I am a little bitter because I used to be able to take a mediocre group from a public school and turn them into a machine that would wait for a well-stocked private school to make tiny mistakes and put our collective foot on their figurative neck. We rarely looked to simply stall but one of my favorite coaching moments was watching my team run a high cutter offense for 2 1/2 minutes until the defense on one of my shooters literally straightened up and stopped playing real defense. Catch, three, swish, 12-point lead, game essentially over. It seems maybe the big name private schools want more bang for their recuiting buck with no pesky upstarts buzzing around their picnic. *he murmurs bitterly* [Edited by bebanovich on Feb 20th, 2006 at 11:56 PM] |
no shot clock at all.. Too many headaches already in HS ball to deal with that. A number of clock keepers can barely do that and can barely keep the AP straight. Having said that tho, keep the AP.
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Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that many referees couldn't handle the addition duties associated with a shot clock. Clock operators and scorekeepers make mistakes, but so do referees.
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Re: Mr. DeNucci:
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Shot clock at the HS level makes the rich richer. I vote no. |
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The shot clock operator's duties are much more complex and are more often the cause of any problems. True, the officials should know when the operator has made an error; and they often don't recognize the error at the HS level. But that doesn't make it their error. |
Shot clock in NYC CHSAA has been a good addition, but many shot clocks (or possibly their operators) have had issues.
Nonetheless, while most high school teams shoot way before even 20 seconds has passed, there is an occasional possession where the 35-second clock comes into play and creates some additional drama. |
Shot Clock- California
I work those lower games where my shot clock operator is 14 years old. It is just another skill set that you develop. Basically a quick glance and you know if everything is cool. Not alot of problems. Also maybe 1/2 actual violations a game, Including girls frosh. So I like it but then again I never reffed the other way.
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Mark: I hear you. Three years ago in Idaho at our large division girls championship state final, we had a stall game with something like an 8-5 score! The winning coach was quoted as saying he knew he could not beat the opponent without stalling. It's been a sore spot for us Idaho guys. I truly appreciate your thoughts. It's causing me to think.
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