I heard about this one from a couple of friends. Team A wins the game by two points. Fans and/or players of Team A confront the officials about "how poor the officiating was" (even though they won). Officials warn to back off or be "T"ed. Criticism continues so official assesses "T" against Team A. Team B hits both free throws to send game into overtime. Team A coach is really upset now and refuses to send his team on to the court for overtime. Official tells coach that if he does not send team out, then Team A forfeits. After a period of time (not sure how long) Team A coach changes his mind and tells official that they will play. Official says that it is too late, "Team A coach had already made his decision", and that the game is over. Team B wins by forfeit.

What say ye?

Maybe if I were there to experience exactly what happened I would think differently about it, but I can't imagine making any such call. I would just get out of the gym, and report the incident to my assignor and let him handle it from there.

Why was the ref(s) hanging around in the first place?

Where was the police and game administration?

"IF" this happened the moment Coach A refused to send his team back on the court the game is over by forfeit.

I know that an official has the authority (and the responsibility) to call a "T" if necessary even after time has expired. I was curious about how the official handled the refusal of Team A's coach to bring the team back out. How long would a coach have to make a definite decision? 30 seconds? I guess initially he said no, then changed his mind, but the official said that the coach had already made his "no" decision first and couldn't change it now.

This was a game between two small private schools. The way I understand it, the officials were confronted as the two teams were shaking hands at mid-court. The officials were probably retrieving their jackets from the scorer's table.

If he's not ready to play when you get ready to toss the ball, go home.

You made that story up.

No, it is true. I am familiar with both teams. I have officiated games for both schools involved. I also know Team A's coach well enough to know that he would refuse to send his players out.

Ok, I believe you.

Fill me in on the steps that they took in completing the forfeit.

Did they have to fill out a report and send it in to the association? Or did they just tell the official scorekeeper? Isn't the official scorekeeper from the home team? Couldn't they have just said "OK", and then forget about it? Was it in the local newspaper? What city was this? What school?

Did these guys get their check?

What happened to the irate fans after they lost anyway? They seem to settle down?

I believe you, but I don't believe your friends, who told you this story.

We need more details.

I know for a fact that this happened. I was not at the game actually myself (hence the "I heard this from some of my friends"), but I have talked to coaches who were at the seeding meeting the next day after this game, when the discussion of this game came up. The final outcome would determine a higher seed for one of the two schools.

The home team was "Team B". I know that you usually designate the home team as "Team A". As I relayed the story, I reversed the designations (not realizing I was going to be cross-examined) :) I was told it was in the local paper (this is the next town up the road) but I have not seen it for myself. This game determined who would be the higher seed going into the tournament. The visiting team is protesting their loss. If I get any more details, I will gladly pass them along.

[/B][/QUOTE]



The home team was "Team B". I know that you usually designate the home team as "Team A".
[/B][/QUOTE]

No, we usually designate the offensive team as "Team A." We usually designate the home team as "the home team." I still think this is a charade.

No, we usually designate the offensive team as "Team A." We usually designate the home team as "the home team." I still think this is a charade. [/B][/QUOTE]

Man, I thought I was a skeptic when it came to stuff on the internet. Why don't you buy this story?

[Edited by Snaqwells on Feb 18th, 2006 at 01:30 AM]

Crazy things happening out there. Check this one out:

http://www.rlnn.com/ArtJan06/Sheperd...yConcerns.html

The reason I do not buy this story, what official in his right mind after a game like this stand around to converse with fans and parents! After a game I'm like a black and white blur to the lockeroom. With the comment they were getting there jackets after the game, WHAT? Who wears there jackets after halftime. Why would you penalize the kids on what the fans said AFTER the game. GET IN, GET DONE , GET OUT!!!!!

"Lodge Grass Superintendent Doug Woods said he was surprised at his team's behavior at the Shepherd game. The coach and the players took issue with what they believed to be unfair treatment by the referees, and the emotions escalated out of control, Woods said."

Now it's ok to get 6 T's in a game if you feel you're getting unfair treatment by the officials??? Sheesh!! Nothing like the School Sup backing the coach/players actions. I would think he'd be embarrassed and someone would get terminated/ suspended/ kicked off the team. I'm sure those officials were really sticking it to em that night (insert long spooky laugh here).

I have been doing private schools and public school JV for three years now. In that time, I have never been offered a "lockeroom" to run to. In this area, JV officials arrive in uniform, we remove our jackets and they are left at the scorer's table. When the game is over, we go to the scorer's table, get our jackets and leave.

For whatever reason, the visiting team received a "T" after the game was over (I don't know if it was justified or not). I do know the home team hit both free throws to force the game into overtime. I do know that the visiting team's coach initially refused to bring his team out for overtime, but then changed his mind. The purpose of my post was to get feedback on how long a coach had to make such a decision. Was the official right in saying that the visiting coach had already made his decision and that the game was over - home team wins in forfeit?

The jackets should go into the locker room at halftime and the officials should be running off the court when the horn sounds, getting a thunbs up from the table. If there was a confrontation, it's the officials' fault for being around.

I've seen officials "watch the handshake" and don't understand the point. Aren't there adults (coaches) supervising? Isn't the game OVER?

I could see this happen, though. In baseball, we call those types of umpires OOOs.

Varsity does it the way you describe, JV does not (not exactly sure why). Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, what are "OOOs" in reference to umpires? :)

Rich, you're assuming the officials had a locker room. While it should be the case, it's not always. Also, I'll agree they should have just left, but I can see how this could happen.
According to the story, they warned the crowd to drop it. Maybe they couldn't leave. Maybe they were surrounded. Or maybe, they were just confrontational because of the atmosphere of the game and their emotions got the better of their judgment.
Also, maybe they just forgot to get their jackets at halftime (I've done that) and had to get them after the game.

Once the coach tells you "no", he's not gonna play that's it. He's already made a definite decision. He doesn't get to change his mind after that. End of story. Forfeit the game to the other team and git the hell outa there.

Where do you change your shoes?

I've never been at a school where a room wasn't available. Varsity officials get a room and I've worked JV and have asked for a place to change.

Maybe I'm spoiled because I don't work JV/Freshman games anymore, but I would insist upon a secured room to put my stuff. Every school I've been to the JV officials share the room with us. Some choose to come dressed and not use the room, but if a confrontation then happens, i see it as their fault.

Where do you change your shoes?

I've never been at a school where a room wasn't available. Varsity officials get a room and I've worked JV and have asked for a place to change.

Maybe I'm spoiled because I don't work JV/Freshman games anymore, but I would insist upon a secured room to put my stuff. Every school I've been to the JV officials share the room with us. Some choose to come dressed and not use the room, but if a confrontation then happens, i see it as their fault. [/B][/QUOTE]

JV's here in my area of North Carolina wear their shoes out of the gym. We are also expected to remain in the gym until the Varsity officials are on the court.

JV's here in my area of North Carolina wear their shoes out of the gym. We are also expected to remain in the gym until the Varsity officials are on the court. [/B][/QUOTE]

You wear officiating shoes outside? In the elements?

Expected to remain on the court? Jeez, that's horrible. They may as well put bullseyes on you.

Where I live, the JV officials coming in to the locker room to shower is our cue that it's time to take the floor.

If, for whatever reason, the officials do have to stick around longer than normal, then I can definitely see the coach(es), players, fans, etc. approaching the officials despite a victory.

It would take QUITE a lot to give a T at this point (despite the provision being in the rules). I think the easier and more professional route would be to simply write up the team for these actions and let the school board deal with it.

Think about what reaction you'd have in the overtime period if the coach did bring his players back onto the court. Team A now thinks that they're screwed and legit fouls are going to be questioned, more T's follow, etc.

That being said, I have a feeling that this coach and team won't be going up to officials after games anymore!!!

(I kinda wanna T up a team now after a game just for the cajones factor! hehe... :D)

First of all, this has obviously happened before because this situation is addressed in the case book.

I dont know about you guys, once I have had a tight game and that buzzer sounds, all I am thinking about is how I can through post-game traffic faster so I can get in the lazyboy with the remote control.

If the T was warranted and I am of the coach for the team that was ahead at the end of regulation, I am tracking down the fan and giving them a swift kick somewhere that hurts.

Sadly, some officials are on a power trip and will call things like this unwarranted,thus giving good officials (like ourselves:)) a bad name.

It sounds like the host school needs to look at a proper protocol to assure things like this dont happen. My association will not agree to send officials to games if the host school does not designate a proper escort to and from the court and out to their vehicle (AD/police/really big weight lifting coach)

To show up in your uniform is unprofessional where I live. We do have officials that do that, but they stay at the lower levels. I have never been to one school where I did not have a locker room. Now all of the "locker rooms" might not be very big or very good places to change, but they provide you some place to change. If there is a JV or Prelim game before a varsity, 9 times out of 10 the JV officials dress in the same room with the varsity officials. I live in Illinois where snow and freezing rain are very common at this time of year. There is no way someone could come from outside and guarantee that their uniform would not be soiled by the elements.

If no other reason I think as a safety measure all officials need a locker room for the end of games. We need a place where we can go and talk and discuss events of the game. If I were you I would raise this concern to your local association or state. If this is a true story I am sure this happens a lot more if JV officials are coming to the games dressed.

If you come dressed and leave, how do you learn to become a varsity official?

Peace

The initial post said "fans and/or <b>players</b> confronted the officials. In these types of cases, I <b>never</b> judge the officials without hearing their side first. Just ain't right.

Here in Ohio, we never come dressed to a game. There is a few that do, but they will never advance, because that shows no profesionalism. I always have a place to change, if not I ask for a place to change. Majorcord you guys sound a little bassackwards down in N. Carolina. JV games in Ohio are just like Varsity games with 1 less ref and the announcements other than that, the same. I think you should have a talk with your association to make sure you have a place to change at every location and a place to CHANGE y our shoes. How do you converse with Varsity officials after game to better yourself? In Ohio we are supposed to stay at least until halftime of Varsity game to converse with officials for feedback.

You guys should come and referee in Australia!!!

Except at the professional levels (National Basketball League - NBL) most stadiums do not have locker rooms for officials. In most cases you either come dressed ready to referee, or else they have 3 toilet/change rooms - one for each team and one general one for the public, which referees use.

In addition - FIBA rules state that the referees must check the scoresheet after the completion of the game. This means that they usually are required to hang around after the final buzzer for at least a couple of minutes.

Since I started this thread I have had my integrity questioned (by those who thought I had made this story up - I did not) and now I have been called unprofessional (because in this area JV officials come to the game dressed in uniform - oh, the horrors!). In retrospect, I think I will give up officiating.

Nah! I enjoy it too much! Can't wait until next season. Maybe I'll get a lockeroom!

:)

Not to pile on but......your fly is undone too.

Talk about kicking somebody when they're down, eh? :D

For the record, you weren't called unprofessional. It was just stated as a fact that in some areas of the country, showing up dressed is viewed that way. In other areas, that's obviously not the case. I know in Des Moines, I would show up to some games dressed, depending on the locker room at that particular school. However, we always got locker rooms at the high school level (and most middle school games as well), even if I only used it to change shoes and drink water. No one would know if I was dressed or not, because I'd have a coat on anyway.

That said, I prefer to go in "civies" and change at the school. It allows me to go straight from work, and it's nice to be able to stop after the game without being a big striped target.

Yeah, I blew that call. Sorry.

I'd like to blame it on the wine, but the wine seems to have disapeared.

Check you local paper online. I'm sure they had a story about it. Post the link. There is some crazy stuff going on out there. In these days and times, the more outragious a story sounds, the more chance it has to be true.

Sorry about the integrity thing.

All,

In my area (SF Bay Area - California), most of the veteran varsity officials definitely wear their work clothes/civies to the gym and change. However, the change areas available vary by gym.

If you are working at one of the local catholic schools, you will definitely get some good space/locker room to change.

However, if you're at one of the public schools (esp. in SF), some of the change areas will vary between a regular locker room or a coaches office. if you're really unlucky, you're stuck in a bathroom trying to change.

While I don't recall how the veterans dress when at some of the public schools, I wouldn't be surprised if they came in uniform. The main problems are: parking, schools are in bad neighborhoods, etc. Officials want to minimize what they are carrying and get in/out as quickly as possible.

Poor behavier by one party is not the fault of the other party.

No problem, Time. I really wasn't that offended. I did look online, but couldn't find the article. These are two really small private schools, so probably not newsworthy enough to make the internet.

JR, were you looking through the window?

Probably one of the wisest things that has been said in this thread, Bart.

As promised, I told you guys and gals that I would give you any further information on this post once I found out. To refresh, visiting team has won the game by 2, time expired, game over. Visiting team's assistant coach "cusses out" one of the officials, even though they had won by two. Official gives "T". The rest of the story you know, home team hits both free throws, game goes into overtime, visiting team refuses to come out for overtime. Home team wins by forfeit. Visiting team files protest, because the calling official would never say exactly what the technical was for. Conference overturns the outcome of the game and gives the win to the visiting team, based on info from the other official and the booking agent. It seems the other official felt the technical was unwarranted and that the first official overreacted. Conference agreed.

Now for those who questioned why the officials were hanging around after the game anyway, I have a question. This was a varsity girls game. Do you varsity officials high-tail it to the locker room after the girls game and then come back out for the varsity boys? I think around here, the varsity officials stay out on the court, since the boys usually come out right away for their warmup. I am just curious how you other guys and gals handle it.

Yes, we do go to the locker room after the girls game. After the court clears and the clock operator gets around to it, he will put 20min. on the clock. We come back at 15min.

By the way, coach curses the officials. Hmmm I think they should not have overturned the T.

Assistant coach curses out the officials, and other official thinks the T is unwarranted? BS. This is, I think, an easier call than originally posted. Partner sold him out after the fact, and that wouldn't make me any happier than the conference over ruling my T.

What info would a booking agent have? :confused:

I believe 'booking agent' is a (possibly more Canadian than not) term for assignor. As assignors are sometimes also commissioners, perhaps that's why the booking agent involvement is suggested.

Well, I'm an assignor- and I can tell you one thing. If I ever did anything like that, I just lost myself an official. The guy that called the "T" is gonna say " I don't need this crap" and he's gonna go bye-bye. And I don't blame him one bit.

There's <b>got</b> to be a heckuva lot more to this story than what we've heard so far.... and I ain't passing judgement on any official until I hear it.

Sorry for the confusion in terms. I am NOT Canadian. :) I used the term "booking agent" for "assignor". I coached for almost 15 years and somewhere along the way I picked up the term "booking agent" and now it is hard to shake.

I agree. I think the conference got in touch with the assignor and he in turn got in touch with the Referee. I am assuming that the calling official was the Umpire. Anyway, I guess maybe the Referee felt the technical was unwarranted (maybe the assistant didn't really cuss the other official out after all - that part of the story came from the home team). I don't really know. I think the whole thing is bizarre and probably could have been avoided if the officials had left the "visual confines of the court" as was suggested earlier.