So when exactly did universities switch from teaching students how to think to telling them what to think?

I think it's actually kind of funny. (I mean, it's not that different from the Seinfeld line at the top of the thread.) But it's also not at all sportsmanlike. I would discourage it, too.

A Can of Worms Here
 

I am not a member of the political correctness police.But would like to address the insinuation of the chant. I mean basically they are chanting " you're a f@@@ot".

Would we think it's funny to chant "you're a n@@@#". I am trying to not get all heavy and monitor others thought but I I didn't think it was funny or clever.

We have players in our area from India who wear thisTurban like headgear, for religious purposes, would we think it funny to chant " you're a raghead"


Funny and clever is when the Cameron Crazies read the paper when the other team is being introduced.

Funny and clever is during Cal Bears beating the Standford Cardinal in football, the Standford student section chants " We'll still hire you ."

And no I am not gay and I would go see Brokeback Mountain about the same time as the aliens land in my backyard.

Keep in mind that those same Cameron Crazies who read the paper also got in trouble a few years back for some not-quite-so-cute stuff...Maryland had a player who was accused of participating in the hold-up of a pizza delivery guy, so when he was introduced at Cameron, pizza boxes were hurled onto the court...caused a delay and started game with a T...back in the late 80's, NC State (I think) had a player accused of rape and when he was introduced the Crazies rained panties onto the court...

Not sure what that has to do with Dan's original post, but I didn't like the insinuation that Cameron Crazies are "good" fans while the DogPound fans are "bad"...

The chant is a unfair taunt. It is not acceptable if you have shirts that say "F@@K Duke" or "F@@K J.J." I agree that a university is a place for thinking, but not all speech is considered appropriate. You could not say those things at a job, why at a game where people are supposed to learn about life. Free Speech only protects individiduals from government action, not watching a sporting event. You can get thrown out for cursing, why is this different?

Peace

Give me a break...You do not have the right to go through life without being offended!

Given the stuff you see happen at college and pro sporting events these days this is pretty tame. IMO, if all the are doing is a chant, and not stirring up a physical confrontation...leave them alone.

They are not delaying the games...they are not putting anyone in harms way. Sure, they may sound stupid...but people sound stupid all the time.

There has to be more pressing things for the school officials to worry about than this.

Really? I thought a game was about the sport and entertainment. Man, I didn't realize that I was being cheated by not receiving a life lesson.

How about the teaching moment someone is being given...explaining how SOME view the chant as inappropriate and the people chanting as insensative?

Not that anyone asked me but . . .

Colleges and universities in general have increasingly felt a need to act <i>in loco parentis</i> because of deaths associated with drinking and drugging. There is, I believe, every reason to think that private colleges have wide lattitude to set standards of behavior in their facilities and for their students. For public schools, well, that's where the 1st Ammendment comes in.

That being said, does chanting 'Brokeback Mountain' "not [stir] up a physical confrontation"? That strikes me as a judgment call. Would chanting 'Fat boy!' engender a fight between the thins and the fats? Maybe.

I don't think adults should or can be protected from being dissed. It's part of the fabric of life - and governments adjudicating these things are more dangeous to the public good than the dissing itself.

Any homosexual who feels the sting of being disliked should measure his or her pain versus that of Steve Kerr, who had to endure fans chanting PLO; the elder Kerr was killed by the PLO, I believe, while he was in the service of the U.S. goverment.


[Edited by assignmentmaker on Feb 14th, 2006 at 04:54 PM]

We will have to agree to disagree.

I can accept the fact that some would be offended by the chant. Just as I can accept that some would take exception to the chant of "fat boy"...and I have struggled with weight issues most of my life so I have heard it off and on since junior high.

The difference is that I adopted the philosophy that only one person on the face of this earth had any influence on how I felt...and that person is ME. How I react to certain situations (events, comments, etc.) is totally under my control. Officials are ridiculed or criticized by someone in the stands every time we take the floor. Yet we do not clear the gym if someone calls us a name.

I view part of the problem at universities (public and private) to be the measures those institutions have taken to control what happens in their facilities and amoung their student bodies.

Why stop at this chant? The actions of every person in the facility reflects on the institution. Why not tell them they cannot jingle their keys when the outcome is obviously decided...it could be an insult to the athletic ability of the opposing team. Why not tell them they cannot try to distract a player attempting a free-throw...they may suffer momentary humiliation by missing a key free throw attempt. We could go down this silly path ad naseum.

IMO, everyone would be much happier with their life if they accept the fact that others will be rude and uncaring when it comes to their emotional welfare.

Why say anything in the spirit of making another human being feel bad? A real Basketball Fan appreciates a great play whether it's made by his Team or the opponent. Those kids aren't Fans. They're just young and dumb. I'd ignore 'em, wait until a gay doctor saves their life or a friend is kiled in action. Then the BBM and PLO chants seem to be a lot less smart.

That being said.....Larry S + Dan-Ref......you guys seem a bit defensive of your masculinity all of a sudden.

Why is it that anytime someone voices their opinion that a new "rule" or "mandate" designed to protect the sensative feelings of homosexuals is silly/idiotic someone quickly comes along and calls them a homophobe, questions, or says they are defensive about, their masculinity?

Maybe they just have a problem with silly/idiotic rules.

Why not just lose the weight? It worked for me. 80 lbs later, I don't hear any of that crap anymore.

Working on it...:)

Another oddity in life...someone struggles with drug issues or depression and people (doctors) have sympathy and want to help...someone struggles with weight issues and people (doctors) say "Just lose weight".

While this discussion would be a lot more interesting if it involved a public university (like Maryland - which has had its' own problems w/ what type of behavior can/cannot happen at the men's games), this specific situation is made easier to understand when you take into account that Gonzaga is a Jesuit University. They have the right to hire faculty/staff, admit students, and allow conduct that is congruent with it's mission and values as an institution of higher learning.

I'm going to assume that most religious-based educational institutions will have a difficult time allowing people to question/criticize the sexuality, religious beliefs, gender, race, etc. of an individual en masse in a public forum.

There are any number of tactics and antics that students can pull on an opponent at a Gonzaga basketball game, but this chant isn't one of them. Gonzaga Univ. certainly has the right to enact and enforce it's own policies.

The beauty of all of this, is that college is a time for people to figure out what is right and wrong; a time to think about what their impact on their community should be; and to learn by trial and error what is appropriate. By all means - question, try, do, think, act, and most important....learn.

Now can we get back to the more important questions of basketball?.....Can C reach out of his primary when there is a "must get" call.....:)

Anytime you are at a University you have to follow conduct codes that are not at play in other aspects of society. I had a friend back in college that almost got expelled because of a dispute that he had with a girl he once dated. All the actions took place off campus and he still had to go against a judicial board to keep going to a public school. When you attend a University whose mission is to educate, you have no right to attend those games or attend that school. If you violate general codes of conduct, the school has a right to take action. Even in a pro arena you cannot do or say whatever you like.

Peace

I agree with so much of what you have said (including the need for the C to reach sometimes ;)).

However, I'll start to believe that even as fine and virtuous an institution as Gonzaga is actually concerned about the true education and citizenship of its students when it puts as much panic and PR into addressing the larger questions of sportsmanship and civilized, hospitable behavior towards everybody else in attendence at a game. When things said by Gonzaga students to opposing players, visiting fans and officials are addressed with equal vigor, then my PC alarms will finally fall silent and I'll applaud their efforts as an attempt to truly educate. But as long as the university's furor is reserved only for attacks against special groups, my cynicism will continue unabated.

All animals are equals; some animals are more equal than others.

Why me??? I'm just the messenger!

Sigh...I guess I'll just go watch Queer Eye.

When the liberals took over, many years ago!

I was just spoofing. The majority of the Refs on the Board think you two guys are probably straight.

This is an explosive subject. I worked at a Private College for 14 years and my job had interactment with scores of Professors, Doctors, Presidents, Presidents' Wives, Deans, Fundraisers, etc.

If you send your child to College thinking that they'll be taught a moral guideline for living.....you are in for a major surprise. IMO, and this is a BIG generality, I thought the guys I use to eat lunch with in Construction Trailers had better moral fabric than the aforementioned Group.

Pat Conroy is an author that loves basketball and writes a lot of novels. The Great Santini, Lords of Discipline, My Losing Season, etc. I like his work.

He had problems when he was at the Citadel with plebe system where they kick the crap out of you for 2 years. Yet, he writes of his great love and respect for the Honor System taught at the Citadel. He mentions something to the effect that, "you could leave anything in an unlocked Dorm Room and it would still be there the next day". Students must never lie, cheat or steal. You won't find that at XYZ University.

After reading about the Citadel's Honor System, I thought that Colleges like the one I worked for missed the boat by not "teaching how to live honorably" rather than "how to think". Reflecting upon it, how many "great thinkers" are just complete wastes as human beings?

The same experience that gave me these opinions exposed me to many gay people. I found them to be some of the finest folks I ever worked with. When I was "young & dumb" and use to be a basic "dumb jock" I made the same stupid comments & jokes as anybody. Now, I just can't find it in my heart to pick on these people.

Losing 80 lbs. - that's an accomplishment! Your a better man than me!

I think people are a little quick on the first amendment, PC trigger. Essentially the article says that two advisers "implored students" to stop and a number of classes talked about the controversy. Would you argue that those advisers have the first amendment right to say, "show some class you morons!?"

You might want to save some vitriol for when they kick the students out (which is a different conversation) or demand that they shout sayings in support of gay marriage.

As a public school teacher in California, I am bound by law to protect students from feeling discriminated-against or harassed based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual-orientation - and students don't have to be directly in the line of fire to feel discriminated against so I have to cover all bases. I will admit that 95% of my energy goes into protecting discrimination directed at women and gays. I would be happy to stand up equally for whites, blacks and baptists but the students don't seem to choose to direct their speech in that direction.

I am a strong beliver in the first amendment and have helped my journalism students serve Freedom of Information Act papers on the school district (not a particularly comfortable experience). I also support the right of students to go out and start a junior Klan if they wish (no violence allowed). They can also use the rights set forth by the constitution to stand on the corner and yell, "the constitution sucks!" But a school has a right to decide how it will deal with discrimination and the measure is not whether someone decides to go start a fist fight.



[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 15th, 2006 at 01:56 PM]

Bebanovich,

I feeling pretty descriminated against that you're lounging around in California rubing elbows with Cher & Liv Tyler and I'm stuck up here in frozen Massachusetts with my rusty snow shovel. You probaly even get to Ref outdoor games! %^*(&^$#

Crow

You can't rub elbows with Cher because plastic melts.

Like you wouldn't go "I Got You, Babe" on Cher if she gave you the chance!

Truthfully, she is kind of creepy. Since I first saw her...I've aged 40 years and she looks better! There's something wrong with that.....

Sheez, get it straight, John! The title of this thread is "Not that there's anything wrong with that..."