4 minutes to go, close game. NCAA game - Chattanoga vs. Elon.

Elon comes down gets absolutly whacked, no call. Chattanoga goes the other way, call a foul. The place goes nuts. I'm sitting front row on the Elon front court. The C on our side, and calls a travel, which was another questonable one. The place is going even more nuts now. Next time back down to our side, the fans are really giving it to him. I'm quiet in the front row. He turns around, WHILE THE PLAY IS GOING ON, and starts yelling at the crowd. I start in, "NOW I KNOW WHERE YOUR MIND IS, FOCUS ON THE COURT". Next whistle he goes to the table and someone comes over and takes me out of the building.

A Division 1 Ref. Who was pulled through the game by his partners (lots of extra switching due to his incompetence, they are having to call stuff in his areas all game, etc.) During time outs they were constantly talking to him about something. And the ref was older.

This is why people despise officials at times. Sorry, but had to vent. A Division 1 game and this guy can't keep his eyes on the court. I'm sure some of the HS guys on the board would love the opportunity this guy has, and would do a far better job. I'm sure there is someone like this in every district.

I'm a ref, so normally I sypathize, but a 3 man NCAA game and he's not even watching the play. I couldn't keep my mouth shut when I saw that.

Could somebody please bring some extra popcorn?

1) Looks good on ya, fanboy.

2) Naw, you're not a ref. If you were a ref, you woulda kept your damn mouth shut. Refs that have any integrity at all don't sit in the stands publically crapping on their brethren.

Somehow, I really don't think that you're gonna find too much sympathy here. I'm also completely sure that we're not getting the whole story from you. You don't get tossed out of a college game just for making a few comments to an official. If that was the case, there'd be thousands of fans gone each game. Nope, you did something else- you went way over the line- and you paid for it.

Why don't you check out the Elon fanboy site. You and the other fanboys there can discuss amongst yourself how the mean old officials screwed your team. You don't belong here, that's for sure. This site is for officials.

I'm on it. Junker can bring the beer. :D

No, I am a ref
 

And not once did I say ANYTHING about his judgement calls. May have disagreed, but I watched the game mainly to see the officials work in the 3 man system (something I'm not used to). I am a ref, and pretty sure I wouldn't throw any fan out, I would just ignore them and do my job. I am telling the whole story. Maybe I was a martyr to get everyone else to shut up, I don't know. I just hate it that this official decided to get caught up in the stands and the coaches instead of worrying about calling the game. That gets to me, in hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have said anything. But the guy was screaming at the crowd to shut up. With a back to a play. Inexcusable. Do it during a timeout if you want to deal with it.

Sorry to troll, but another point
 

If you don't believe this is the story, fine. But lets say it was. I just want to know if this warrents ejection of a fan, or if officials should be concerned about fan behavior while the play is going on.

That was the point of this thread, not to get into an arguement about my comment, which in hindsight, made that ref look bad. But I just got outraged when he turned around during while a player was driving the lane.

So as officials, do you all worry about this sort of thing? Is my viewpoint, in this situation, off base?

Isn't it a bit early for the trolls to be out? It's only mid-February.

BTW, do we need to buy an additional stamp if we're hunting troll in TX this year? Wouldn't want to get fined if somebody caught me 'cuz I shot my hunting buddy. :D

Re: Sorry to troll, but another point
 

TussAgee11,
If you would have ended your story with <LI><font color = green><B>"Next time back down to our side, the fans are really giving it to him. I'm quiet in the front row. He turns around, WHILE THE PLAY IS GOING ON, and starts yelling at the crowd. I <s>start in</s> <I><U>thought to myself</I></U>, 'NOW I KNOW WHERE YOUR MIND IS, FOCUS ON THE COURT.'"</font></B>,

it would have been a much better story with a much happier ending.
mick

YU.P.
Instead of yelling, "Quail!", they shoulda yelled, "DUCK!!"

"Quail" or "Quayle"?

Quail, the verb form :)

Wonder what Len Reynolds is going to say when he hears that you were ejected from a game at Elon?

Quail? Maybe Cheney shot at TussAgee11 for him to go off...

Re: Re: Sorry to troll, but another point
 

I agree. While he may have been wrong to address you, you were also wrong with what you yelled. Especially if you are an official. You MUST have self-control when watching.

To answer your question, no I would not eject for that.

Unless I knew he was an official, making his "knowledge" known among his neighbors, and inciting the fans with his "authority."
But then again, I'm sure this had been the first thing he said all night. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go finalize the sale of my beach front property just outside of Phoenix.

Re: Re: Re: Sorry to troll, but another point
 

MJ - Thanks for the feedback - This is what I'm looking for people, at what point do you draw the lines with fans.

not just assuming I'm an idiot. Cause I'm not. Thanks MJ.

So what's the moral of this story?

Fan got tossed from his seat that he paid money for.

Offical got paid $500+ to toss him.

OK, now for the on-topic bit:

"Over the weekend, on a quail hunting trip, Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. When people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now 98 percent." —Jay Leno

Good one, Dan !
However, "NOW I KNOW WHERE YOUR MIND IS, FOCUS ...."
mick

That is the funniest story I have ever read on this site.


LOLOLOL.

Here is the part that I liked so much:

Next whistle he goes to the table and someone comes over and takes me out of the building.

Had front row tickets, huh?

Next time, wear your striped shirt. Bet you didn't get stuck in traffic on the way home.

I can't stop laughing.

OK. But seriously, missed the end of close game, huh? Sorry to hear that.

ok take it as a joke
 

all i was looking for is some officiated feedback on how much the officials should just not focus on the fans.

Oh yea, paid nothing for the tickets. Sit in the student section.

Since you're in the student section I'm going to make a wild assumption and guess that you're a student. Probably not a big leap...

Anyway, by any chance, did you consume any alcoholic beverages which may have impaired your judgment? If so, then maybe the ref going over to the table and you getting ejected are just a coincidence. Did you do anything else that may have gotten you tossed? How are you sure that the official knew it was you that screamed that comment? Was he turned around at that instant and did you two make eye contact? Did he recognize your voice from earlier comments in the game?

Could game management/security think you were drunk and acting out of line?

You have conflicting statements in that you're saying you were there to watch how a 3-man game is called and you have very little experience with it, so how do you know that the extra switching/rotations were due to the ref's incompetence? I've worked with a lot of new officials and teaching them 3-whistle isn't easy, and it takes quite a number of games for some to pick up the nuances of when to move and where to be looking.

Now to play Devil's Advocate, the official probably shouldn't have turned around and addressed the crowd if the play was still going on. I'll agree with you there. No question that you could possibly miss an important play, but there are those instances when you can peak away (not that I'm condoning it). i.e. overload on the weak side, hot girl in the stands, etc.

It just struck me funny
 

Sorry. I just thought I was going to read about some rules interpretation. You setup the situation. Then Wham! It just seemed like a punchline. I couldn't stop laughing.

I have been watching basketball for longer than I would like to mention. I have watched my kids play sports. I have coached my kids teams. I have just started to learn officiating. (I can't seem to start a sentence with anything but I...this can't turn out good).

My mentor has me go watch him officiate. It was the hardest thing to do at first. I wanted to watch the games as a fan. I wanted to root for the underdog(teams I didn't even care about) I wanted to tell the coaches when to call TO's. And yes, I had problems keeping my mouth shut when there was a bad call. (at least I didn't scream).

But I have learned to keep my mouth shut. Or even make ugly faces.

He officiated a game at the deaf school. It was eerie. Not only did the deaf players NOT talk, the other team didn't talk. Nobody in the gym said anything. Sitting in the stands, I said something to myself about the AP arrow being wrong. The couple in front of my turned around and let me know that the arrow was correct and told me why. (in a nice way, but) I felt a little embarassed. People could talk, they just didn't. Strange.

Another time, his partner didn't show up. He officiated the first game by himself. Poor guy. You think an official can't see everything when there is two or three of them? He tried to play lead on both sides. He quickly learned that when you're the only one out there, you are ALWAYS the trail. No bump and run. Just run. He actually asked me to stand by one of the endlines and help him out on OOB. I politely declined. If I only learned one thing, I learned to keep my mouth shut. Actually, the crowd and coaches went pretty easy on him. (But those girls did stretch the court out when the ball was under the basket).

Another time, he had a JV boys game. I sat right behind the home team bench. First half, He was the lead (became the trail after the home team rebounded) A1 gets trapped in the corner, right in front of the Home team bench (and I was seeing what the coach was seeing). With my mentor OOB on the endline, A1 had his back to the endline. B1 and B2 where hacking away at A1's arm until the ball finally came loose. Then in the scramble, the ball went OOB, off of A1. The coach about blew his top. I thought, man that was a bad call. A1 got robbed. BUT, I didn't say anything. I made a note on my clipboard and I was going to mention it to him later. But the more I thought about it, I realized that unless he could see through that kid's body, there was no way that he could have seen the hack's. Even though it was "as plain as day" to me and the home team bench. I learned two things that night. 1) The ref can only call what he sees. 2) It is important to place yourself so that you can see the play.

I have always loved basketball. But it is a totally different game when you are watching the officials instead of the game. You can learn a lot from watching the officials instead of getting caught up in the game as a fan. But, the first that you have to learn is: Keep your mouth shut.

See how you felt when you thought we were making fun of you. Do you relize now how the ref felt when you were making fun of him?

Did you learn anything from your experience?

[Edited by Time2Ref on Feb 14th, 2006 at 08:13 AM]

Yeah, I learned from this expierience. And no, I had no alcohol, although I'm sure some people around me did. Perhaps the official heard someone else say something and just got the wrong person. I'm not really sure. I know I should have bit my lip.

But all this said, how much should officials put the earmuffs on the crowd? And what point does it become so large you need to eject a fan. I guess its kind of like a Technical or an ejection in baseball, each referee has their own breaking point. But what should we strive for that breaking point to be? Is it different from coaches to fans? Can a fan get away with a lot worse before he/she needs to be removed?

My experience aside, I want to learn from this from an official standpoint as well. When is enough enough from a fan?

Adam,
I'm thinking you should bring both since I had to find subs for you in 3 games, and then find a sub for your sub in 2 of those. And then I had a coach tell me to stick to Saturday morning games. I hope you're enjoying the new location!

Enough is when I have decided I won't take anymore! Personal judgement.

There are a lot of variables as to when enough is enough. It depends on the level of the game, the noise level, the official, what is said. The point is, when you make comments like this, you are putting yourself in danger of getting asked to leave, especially when you are close enough that the official can specifically point you out. I used to yell and scream at my college games. Then I worked my first 3 minutes of a basektball game and realized what I thought I was seeing from the stands was not at all what was happening on the floor. I haven't yelled at an official since, although I removed myself from a league game after an official booted a rule, but that's an entirely different story.

What? I can't hear anything you are saying, you are a fan. :)

I choose not to hear anything that the fans say other than to get a laugh out of it. I have had a partner stop the game in transition as he ran by the students section once and eject a girl in the 2nd row for standing up and loudly saying "You s@#k." But personally I will not 'hear' what the fans say, if it gets bad enough,(cusring, threatening, etc..) I will go to game management at a break and have them remove the person responsible. But I wouldn't ever turn around and address the fans, let game management deal with it.

SO which one was it?

Officals: Bryan Kersey, Doug Sirmons, Roger Ayers

Correction
 

Actually, according to Leno, it was only 92%.

I can remember a game at the Air Force academy that I went to with my association. The officials had talked to us before the game so they knew we were there. We sat half way up the bleachers yelling things at them like, "Call it both ways." and "3 seconds" and just having a good time. They laughed and we laughed the whole game. Air Force lost big.

Be careful what you say though when the ref doesn't know you from Adam. That's when you get tossed.

Oooooh, somebody's calling the bluff. Pass the popcorn!

Bryan and Roger work primarily ACC games while Doug works mostly SEC contests.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/sports/wb/40143

Wonder what TussAgee, who's obviously an intramural ref, would make on the test at the bottom of the page. :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:05 AM]

Not the point, to call out the specific official. I know which one it was, but why even bother? It doesn't matter if he's the best, the worst, the veteran or the rookie. He made that call, and it stands.

I just wanted to talk about how officials should treat fans, if at all, not get in a pissy fit about a single official. Should refs always put the earmuffs on when it comes to fans? How does it change between NCAA and H.S.? What about a little/big H.S game? Or a little/big NCAA game?

I just wanted to talk about how officials should treat fans, if at all, not get in a pissy fit about a single official.
[/B][/QUOTE]Why? :confused: Isn't that that <b>exactly</b> what <b>you</b> did? Didn't <b>you</b> get into a pissy fit with a single official and then get put in the parking lot for doing so?

Fans should be treated with all of the respect that they deserve. Obviously that's what happened to you in your case. Why don't you quit whining and just let it go.

Jeff,
Fine, but I could have worked the first of those games. :) I'll admit I owe you a beer, though.

We are liking it. Can't wait for next season, though, when I can get started with the IAABO folks out here. :)

Problem with officials.

They take anytime somebody mentions a situation that they misbehaved in, we can't learn on both sides. Always just assumes the party who acted out of line doesn't deserve conversation. I recognize what I did Jarassic, but I'm over whining about it. I want to learn from a fan's perspective (I have done that, keep your mouth shut). Now I want to learn from an officials perspective.

Is there anything wrong with that? If there is, let me know. Thought this board was for learning, not for calling people out, which after my original post I have not done.

Thanks for the mature response you gave me. I'm treating this situation maturely, not whining. I want feedback as an official so I can benefit during my games. Is that not allowed? Seriously, if there is Jarassic, I won't even come here anymore, I'll stay to the baseball board, and just lurk over here, because I'm not allowed to learn from the veterans on the board here.

TussAgee, if you are an official, then you do <b>not</b> sit in the stands and berate, put down or otherwise comment on the officiating. EVER! If you can't say something positive, then you do not say anything. Quite simply, it is unprofessional and it also shows a lack of integrity.

Take a look at p.75 of the rule book - the Officials Code of Ethics. You will see the following:

<b>"Officials shall remain mindful that their conduct influences the respect that student-athletes, coaches and the public hold for the profession".</b>

Your fellow students know that you are an official. What do you think their thoughts are when they see you berating the officials at a game? Especially to the point of getting ejected?

You can still be a fan and cheer your team on. Believe it or not, you can do so without dumping on the officials too.

Think about it.

Please.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:15 AM]

I was observed by Doug at camp in Orlando in '04. I liked him a lot, seemed to have a very good demeanor and was positive toward me. We had a good game and Doug gave me big ups for clock awareness.

I mentioned this story at the time, but I had a play where I had just called a block at one end of the floor. A close play, but clearly a block. Then a minute or two later, there was a similar play, tho not quite as much contact. I sort of had a conversation in my head, "Kind of marginal, but had a very similar one down there. Ok, grab it." Called a block.

The funny thing was that when we reviewed the tape of the game, Doug's comments on that play were almost exactly the same as my self-conversation. "Didn't really affect the play, Chuck, but you just had the similar one on the other end, so I see why you called it."

Made me laugh at the time. Anyway, that's my Doug Sirmons story.

Sympathetic
 

This thread has been done over and over, every now and then. I know i'm gonna get creamed for this, but I have to agree with the original poster in his frustration with the officiating in a game. Maybe saying something wasn't right, but there is a very pervasive attitude in basketball officiating that I do not see in soccer or swimming, which I do both, that regardless of what kind of call or no-call is made, it HAS to be right because you can never question the judgement of another official. Whether it was completely a judgement call, or completely wrong based on the rules (simply by asking the official afterwards what he based the call on), there is an attitude that it cannot be wrong.

I'm not saying I'm qualified necessarily to judge, but this attitude seems to be in direct conflict with the idea that basketball officials are always trying to improve themselves. How do you improve if when you do things wrong, no one is allowed to let you know this?

On a related note, our chapter actually has a bylaw stating that officials are not permitted to express disagreement by word or action with calls or no calls in a game they are spectating at. I really disagree with having a rule like this. It seems to bring up a situation every year or two where someone crossed the line... but in most cases, it is way over a simple "disagreement" by verbally or physically saying something. In some cases, an official has gone out on to the floor (after regulation before OT) to berate an official, or gone into the officials locker room to do the same. THIS is a problem. But I don't think we need a rule like that...seems in America, I'm suppposed to be entitled to express my opinion.

And we all know there are officials that make mistakes or don't know some rules. I'm not saying I'm not one of them or that I'm better than them.

I'm just tired of the "no one is ever wrong, regardless of how wrong they are" attitude.

Re: Sympathetic
 

IMO, you've not taken enough time to read the posts for this thread. I don't see anyone saying they're never wrong. In fact, most everyone here admits they miss calls. True, we all come here to get better but when has an official been supported here for berating a fellow official?

Officials don't get to the level of this game (original sitch) by not knowing the rules. I also think it's funny how you disagree with your associations bylaw about an official hassling another official. I'm suprised associations even need that bylaw. Isn't that a combination of common-sense and common-curtesy? IF YOU are someone who is qualified to help them, don't do it in front of others. This type of help is best given and received in private.....and probably not within 5 minutes of the game ending.

Free speech? Free speech? Is that the arguement you really want to offer here? If that's the case then you would mind if I tell you to..........o-nevermind. I don't think this is an issue of free speech, but more one of curtesy, respect, understanding, self-control and a sense of brotherhood.

Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

I'm not saying that under any circumstances that it is appropriate during a game to complain to the officials on the court.

I am saying that the general consensus, which I get from people from my chapter, is that it is never appropriate to question another official. What they call is always the right call. This attitude is not carried by everyone in the chapter, but a number of the members feel this way. I understand we all judge things slightly differently, but from one game to the next, it would seem the rules could be enforced (or administered, if you don't like the term "enforced") more consistently. Playing styles change the game, but the rules don't change game to game.

One major problem with this sport is the range of what is acceptable for calls when compared to the rules. Many officials choose not to call specific things because they disagree with the rules, or choose to ignore things in favor of game flow. I tend to be a very rules-oriented person, but there are people who very clearly, through their statements, choose not to call things because they disagree with the rule. I can say this because the people i am thinking of have stated that verbally.

Again, I'm not saying I'm necessarily qualified to determine what is right or wrong. But based on the rules and cases, and what our interpreter says, there are a lot of people who simply choose not to do what they are told. Example: Several years ago, the rule stated that the assistant coaches cannot get up or approach the table for questions, etc (like checking timeouts). Many officials around me at the meeting stated it was a stupid rule, and that they would never give a technical for that kind of infraction, even though the rule states that it was required.

This is the kind of rule-ignoring i have a problem with. And when officials do this in a game (ignoring 3 seconds because they don't like the call, or because the coach asked for it), that seems like something that should be addressed. Not necessarily by me, as a spectator, or me, as a member of the chapter, but that should be addressed by someone. Our rules interpreter says one thing, and it seems like everyone just kind of does their own thing.

Just venting, I guess...

There is a world of difference between mindlessly assuming the official on the floor is always right and understanding that your behavior as an official is always being observed and choosing not to act in ways that berate other officials publicly. I disagree with officials on the floor quite often, in rec., HS and college games. In any game I watch I'm critical of calls that are made. It's part of learning by observing others. But I calmly continue watching the game without indicating what I think.

I have also learned over the years that if I talk to the refs about specific situations, they'll often enlighten me as to something I missed in my observations. After all, they're 6 feet from the call and I'm 60 feet. They have an angle, I have a seat in the stands. Sometimes they'll tell me that they passed on that call for a very valid reason, and I have an opportunity to learn more about officiating philosophy from officials who are better than me. And yes, occassionally they'll admit that they kicked it or weren't in position to see it.

No, we're not perfect. Yes, most of us are trying to get better. No, it's not a secret society where we're expected to uphold each other no matter how dirty the deed. Yes, we are expected to hold our tounges when a commrade screws the pooch. No, that's not at all unreasonable. Yes, it is professional behavior.

And drinkeii, maybe it's time you set the rulebook aside and became more a student of the philosophy of the game. While it is important to thoroughly understand the rules of the game, it's more important to understand how to (and when not to) apply them. The rules exist to serve the game, not the other way around.

As I have always said - you can't play a game without rules. You can't have a game without rules. The rules are there to serve the game, but you can't play the game without them. And in basketball, there is way too much leeway (in my opinion) in how those rules are "interpreted", or calls are "passed on", even though it was a clear case of a rule being violated.

When you have a team down by 30-40, and someone on the lower team travels, and it is a minor thing, yes - i would consider that something to pass on. But in my opinion, when players do what they are supposed to do, according to the rules, and they are penalized for it, that is a problem - because the officials are more concerned with game flow than administering the rules. This leads to the current situation where players and coaches don't know the rules, and those that do, don't have any kind of advantage because the refs make a conscious decision to favor "the spirit of the game" over the actual rules which govern it.

How would olympic sports be if they decided that the officials for sports could just do whatever they felt would make a better game, instead of actually following the rules as written?

We see what this did to the NBA - in general, the game is run as "What makes a good show for the fans?" rather than actually having rules that are followed consistently. Travels happen all the time - but since they're followed by flashy plays, they get ignored, teaching younger kids that that kind of behavior is acceptable.

Again, more venting...

Re: Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

Sounds like your problem should be with the association that you officiate with. I don't see that problem is myu association.

In fact, last night I worked the second game of a conference tourney 1st round doubleheader. At halftime of game 1, the R asked me if I had seen anything. I told him point blank that asst. coaches for both teams were standing and they needed to take care of it. This was after they had a conversation about a warning that was giving but wasn't put in the book.

Don't throw us all in the fire because your association isn't looking at what's being called.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

Well, maybe it is just our group - our soccer group and our swimming group are not like this either.

That statement tells me all I need to know. You aren't an official. Yeah, you may play one during intramural games but that's it.

Go away fanboy.

Re: Sympathetic
 

You're completely missing the point of this particular thread, David. No one is saying that you shouldn't <b>ever</b> question the judgement of another official. What <b>is</b> being said is that any judging being done should <b>not</b> be done in public with non-officials being present and being able to see and hear what you're saying. Officials criticize <b>each other</b> all the time. Case in point and a great example-- this forum. If it's done properly, face-to-face and kept between us gals, it's a great learning experience. If it's done while sitting in the stands, as TussAgee did, it's unprofessional as hell and shows a complete lack of integrity.

And, in my experience, a good official will readily admit it if they screw up a call. They usually appreciate the in-put too. The idea is to constantly strive to improve, and one of the ways to do that is learning from your mistakes. We all do make mistakes. Most of us realize that. Non-officials and avid fans usually don't.

Re: Sympathetic
 

As a person, I am one of the biggest basketball fans in the world. I go to games all over the Chicago area to watch good HS, college, and pro (now that the Bulls are at least trying to field competitive teams). B

ut as an official (which I am now known), I have to watch the games in silence, only cheering good plays or remarking on bad coaching moves and the lack of solid fundamentals. When I observe something of note, I make a mental note to ask the question later. How can any official question another's judgement? Judgement is just that, making several decisions in a split second. Soccer isn't like this. swimming isn't like this. Football, baseball, etc. The only sport that comes close is hockey.

As a basketball official, you, DRinkeII, should know that every call you make or don't make can be called into question. I agree that mechanics, court location, signals, ball hawking are all things that can be addressed without question. But judgement on a blarge in live action??? Calling or no-calling a borderline travel?? If you have a rooting interest, there is no way that you can see this objectively. Let the officials on the court handle their game, and give solid, constructive criticism during half-time, after the game, or in meetings. But take it the same way you give it.

First of all, different sports are officiated differently. But as far as Olympic basketball, I'm sure you'll find the same (or greater) consideration of advantage/disadvantage, the same (or greater) reluctance to T coaches when they could be handled without the T and the same (or greater) disdane for calling three seconds needlessly.

Look, I don't mean to pee on your parade. But when your stated examples of officials general disregard for the rules are not automatically T'ing assistant coaches for standing, not calling three seconds, and the seemingly lax enforcement of traveling in the NBA, that sets off all kinds of red flags.

Re: Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

The only part in that I want to respond to is above. Forgive me if I over-snipped.

Game flow is an important part of what we do. My personal pet peeve involves marginal traveling calls or marginal fouls called that interrupt games. We are there to facilitate the game; we aren't gun-slingers out to nail every little thing we think might violate a particular rule.

I've seen a TON of this in subvarsity contests this season. Foul after foul after foul on contact that causes NO disadvantage at all. Travels called on ugly plays that clearly, by rule, aren't traveling violations. Ugh.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

But in this case, you are stating that it is "ugly, but not a travel" - so therefore, there shoulnd't be a call - and this I agree with. And I understand, to a certain extent, advantage/disadvantage. But when you think about it, isn't it always to the fouled team's advantage to call a foul, because that puts them closer to the bonus, and that opponent closer to being out of the game? I mean, that is a more global (and less considered) advantage/disadvantage argument... and not commonly accepted as a reasonable interpretation - but isn't it one way to look at those fouls?

Besides... in Basketball, advantage/disadvantage is listed in the rules as a consideration. In soccer, it is actually part of the rules and required to be considered. In basketball, there is no clear statement in there that you should ignore a foul which does not generate a disadvantage. It does explain that somewhat - but nothing like soccer, where the rules say you must pass on calling a foul where there is an advantage to allow the fouled player to keep playing.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sympathetic
 

Advantage/disadvantage is not considered from an administrative standpoint. To me and to all the other varsity/college officials I work with, advantage/disadvantage means we don't stop the game on contact unless it's excessive or if, in our judgment the person (or sometimes the team) contacted is disadvantaged. We don't care about the bonus or the number of fouls on a player.

Coming to grips with this is what takes most officials from the subvarsity level to the varsity level. I've lived in 6 states and things are pretty much the same everywhere I've officiated.

The one thing I've read above that I think is completely incorrect is your quote: "that you should ignore a foul which does not generate a disadvantage". If there is no disadvantage or if the contact isn't excessive, there's no foul. There can be contact without a foul. That is in the rulebook.

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I have never had any problem accepting criticism - except from those who will not accept it themselves (I've never agreed with hypocrits). I am very willing to have things pointed out - and I always tell my partner that if he sees something that means I completely kicked a call, come over and correct me... i'd rather get the call right than choose to not correct it because I don't want to look bad - i think i look worse if I mess up and no one fixes it.

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I agree with that. But then when you get someone slapping another player loudly, that everyone in the place hears, and you pass on it, you look like a bad official. I'm talking about the kind of slap where there is absolutely no effect on the play, but it just sounds really bad. Most officials call that, at least most that I have seen, even if there is no disadvantage to the slapped player.

I do have to say that it seems that most officials DO consider the concept of "how many fouls a player has" in their decisions to call fouls... i have always been told, and see it in action all the time - if you have a player with 3 fouls, or very much so if they have 4, make sure when you call something on them, it is a clear foul and not a cheap one. I have never agreed with this. The rules and interpretations state clearly that if it is a foul at the beginning of the game, it is at the end, and everywhere else in between. Same with positioning - a foul at one end, in the middle, in the paint, or by the sideline, is the same. It's easier to see things outside the paint, because of a lack of a crowd, but that you are supposed to call things the same throughout.

And what kind of red flags are those? Are you saying that these situations, which the rules specifically state are to be enforced, are not? And I don't mean seemingly lax... if you watch, many of the players take a full 2 1/2 to 3 steps (not jump-stopping...) on their way to the hoop, with no travel call. The NBA doesn't allow any more steps than any other level of basketball for traveling. It just doesn't make a good game for people to watch... but I don't remember High School or Gradeschool basketball officials being hired to make a good game - we're there to make sure no one gets hurt to the best of our ability, administer the rules as stated in the rules, cases, and by our interpreter, and to let the game flow - IMHO, in the order I stated them.

It sounds like you're saying we're not supposed to enforce the rules - I picked some things that some officials have flat out stated they will not call. How can you be an official for a sport, with defined rules, cases which clarify those rules, and an interpreter saying what needs to be called, and just say "Nope... I'm calling what I want, when I want, regardless of what they say... if I personally disagree with a rule, I'm not enforcing it."

It reminds me of when I had braces. I did what I was told, and ended up having to wear them longer because I did what I was told, and they told me what to do based on most of the kids with braces not doing what they were told. I did what I was told, and I was penalized for it. If we have rules, if we have cases, if we have an interpreter saying "This is how we're supposed to do it", how can you support an official who chooses to ignore all three, and do their own thing?

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I have that philosophy on EVERY foul. All fouls need to be clear, not cheap fouls.

But by clear, I mean "causes a disadvantage." I may (or may not) pass on the slap you mentioned above yet call a very slight bump that causes a travel or loss of ball or balance.

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I definitely agree with that.

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If you are looking for a book of unassailable "Thou shalt not..."s, engraved in stone from an infallible rulegiver on high, you fundamentally misunderstand the basketball rule book. So let's start at the beginning, and please pay particular attention to how advantage/disadvantage are woven through the entire fabric of the rules.

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.

Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

THE GAME - Basketball is played by two teams of five players each. The purpose of each team is to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring. The ball may be thrown, batted, rolled or dribbled in any direction, subject to restrictions laid down in the following rules.

That is the lens through which officials must read and interpret the rules. Note that we are not told to mindlessly apply every rule as written no matter what. We are expected to employ intelligence and judgement in applying them. We are to consider not just the lifeless text of the rule, but it's intent and purpose. And we are to judge each situation individually.

What constitutes a "balance of play" and whether a particular contact hinders an opponent are very subjective judgements. They will change from level to level, and even from game to game within the same level. That is why a sound grasp and feel for the flow of the game is vital. At its most fundamental, the official's job is apply the minimum amount of interference to keep the players in check and ensure that a basketball game happens.

Few things make me crankier than the clueless player, coach or fan who spends all game hollering about 3 seconds. Their fundamental view of the game is not that they should go out and leave it all on the floor in a competition between two teams. They want the officials to scrutinize every detail of their opponent's behavior, searching for reasons to take the ball from them. To them it's not about proving that one team is more skilled or athletic or talented or conditioned or courageous than another, it's just a cowardly, lawyer-like contest of trying to deny the other team the opportunity to play their game by pouncing on every potential transgression. It's not an attitude of "I believe I can do this better than you" it's just a continual barrage of "hey, you can't do that!" It's more like petty sibbling rivalry than a sporting competition.