I was coaching my daughters U11 team this weekend at a tournament. In our first game, we had one registered ref, one student from the hosting University as another. Our player, A1, steals ball and heads towards our basket. B1, with great speed, catches up and delivers blow on shot, no call. Our girl crumbles in heap to floor, B1 picks up ball and moves ball back up court, our player still in heap on floor. Ref looks back at our player twice, no whistle to stop play (remember, B1 had no advantage heading up court, only her and A1 were involved in the breakaway). B1 dribbles down through her lane, takes a shot, B2 rebounds, shoots again, we finally gain ball. Our girl is just getting up, eye completely red and a bit swollen from the blow. Finally, whistle blows. I now see how red my players eye is (it wasn't a touch foul, which I thought was obvious on the play), she can't even keep it open, it is watering so much. I look to the patched ref and say, "Stripes, are you going to let play like this go on today?" I didn't have MUCH tone in my voice (but there was some negative inflection). He Ts me up for, in his words, disprespecting him for calling him stripes. Roughly two minutes later, another player of mine takes an elbow on teh chin, bloody lip, comes out of game. Again, no call. Then, in the 3rd period, with two girls on the floor going for loose ball (A2 and B2), B3 dives on the pile, driving her shoulder into A2s chin (who, just got braces on Thursday). Of course, no foul call (jump ball instead), A2 comes up with bloody mouth. So shame on me for calling him stripes (was that truly disrespectful?) and getting lit up (true or false)? And, at what point would this community feel I needed to step up to protect my players' best interest and get into the ref's soup (In a side bar, I calmly approached him at the next dead ball, expressed my concern about the lack of calls with rough play, and he offers: I didn't see it, turns and walks away)?

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 12th, 2006 at 05:23 PM]

Notify game admin and take your team off the court.

We did
 

notify admin after the game. We didn't comment about anything but the allowance of rough play (their calls on travels and violations were fine). Luckiy, we never had those same refs again.

Its a myth that officials control rough play, but if there were uncalled fouls, you can approach him during a TO and ask, "can you explain why there was significant contact that was not called a foul?"

Taking your team off the court is never an option.

I don't think so it is a myth. I have controlled rough play as an official.

Agreed.

Disagree. There most definitely is a point where you pull your team off the court.

Imeadski: if your players were genuinely getting fouled as your describe, and there was nothing being called, then in my mind, this situation at least points in the direction of taking action into your own hands.

Of course we can control hard play: first, by calling all the hard fouls (eventually those players that are committing hard fouls will be benched in foul trouble, and if they are contributors, their coaches will tell them to tone it down), second, by warning players of the risks of overly aggressive or increasingly aggressive play. If they don't heed the warnings, then they get the calls. Of course, that does not always deter players from committing stupid fouls again.

First of all. I am sorry that your player was injured.

We weren't there. We are only getting one side of the story.

I am assuming that the U11 means under 11 years old.

It is obvious that you are mad. It is obvious that you were mad when you made that statement to the ref.

Did you honestly think that if he allowed an intentional foul on your player that he/she would be the type that would admit his/her mistake and change the call when you complained in front of everyone?

Your players look up to you and will learn from your example.

What example do you want to set for your players?

What did you learn from this experience?

How will you change your practice and what will you teach your players from this experience. (have you considered making them wear mouth pieces?, those little plastic things that the football players wear?)

I have no answers for you. But the answers you are searching for, are inside of you.

If you waste the rest of the season complaining about the referees, that is what you will teach your kids. If you "take the high road" and insist that your kids do the best that they can. That's what they will learn.

You have more influence over these children than you realize. (you have little, or no influence over the referees you get)

(I ref little kids. When I see them fall down, they look up at me. I tell them to get up. Sounds rough. But its kind of like life. Actually, they get up and run down the court.) Sure, I blew the call. But, I am also trying to get up off the floor. Next time, I will be better.

When you make your decision to "get up" or "stay on the floor and look for pity", you are not only deciding for yourself, you are deciding for your players. You are helping them to learn that, "in life", they are going to encounter "bad refs" and "stabs in the back". When your players grow up, will they lay on the floor and look for pity? Or will they overcome every obstacle that life throws at them?

Sports are like life. You are helping to form the attitudes that these kids will take with them later in life.

You decide.

But, let me tell you. You will feel so proud when you see later that they have succeeded. And you will know it is because of how you coached them this year. (not because you poisioned your kids with hate because of a bad call).




[Edited by Time2Ref on Feb 12th, 2006 at 09:53 PM]

Some Youth Ref's are terrible. I've considered pullling Teams once or twice. Never did it but it was in my mind for the kids' safety. The primary skill in reffing youth games is to "control" the contact so that "inexperienced" players don't go bananas and start pushing opponents into walls on lay-ups. Stopping a game and warning both squads to knock it off and play basketball is effective.

A Youth Basketball Game shouldn't be a dangerous as a hunting trip with our Vice-President.

Time2Ref
 

thank you for your thoughtful reply. I think you feel I was madder about this than I really was. After that game we had two other games without any real incidents. We are a 11 and under team that plays in the 12 and under league. We do that so the girls are forced to elevate their level of play. Having coached for 10+ years, I know basketball is a physical game. And we told the girls the games would be more physical in the upper age level. I just never expected to see a fellow ref allow such aggressive play and then T me up for calling him Stripes (and, as I originally posted, I didn't have much tone in my voice. In fact, my parents thought they had drawn the T from the stands for yelling at the ref after this occurred). As a ref, the girls know how I stand about respecting the referees (post game, after telling the opposing team good job, they are required to go thank the referees). They also know I am their coach and must keep their best interests at heart. Anyway, I was just relaying what happened this past weekend. It is fun to wear both shoes (coach and ref) as it gives me an interesting perspective on what motivates and frustrates both.

All this talk about elementary tournaments is getting me all excited about the 3 games I have scheduled for next Saturday morning. :)

Bring your mace
 

I didn't even go into the problems I had with team parents about their kid's playing time!

Re: Bring your mace
 

Thanks.
I'm partnered with my DII friend.
I'll make sure he's the R.

I'm disappointed in you, Imeadski. Re-read Time2Ref for a thoughtful response which pretty well captures my thoughts. The less thoughtful and straight-forward response is:

The play was not as bad/violent as you are describing; recognize your own bias in the matter. You deserved the T.

5 on 4 heading up the court is ALWAYS an advantage. It's simply up to the official to judge if the injured player is injured significantly enough to immediately stop play.

I'm not disappointed at all.
The way I read lmeadski's post was that he was sharng, not whining.
Nuthin' wrong with that.
If you want whining, listen to my coaches next Saturday. :)
mick

At this level, contact should always be called more tightly. Kids can't "play through", and especially girls this age. They just haven't learned those skills yet. But at any age, if a girl goes for a lay-up, and gets knocked over, that's always gotta be a foul. It comes under the category of "protect the shooter". If the patched ref wasn't new lead, he should have closed hard, and come up with a late whistle.

Then, when the opponent gets the ball and heads back down court, play has got to stop with an injured player on the floor. At this age level, and in the first half, there's no way play should continue.

I don't know abuot called the ref, "Stripes". I don't think I"d like it, but not sure I'd T for it. But you should definitely have said something about the calls at half-time. "Ref, sorry I was disrespectful. Listen, are you going to continue letting them play? If so, we're going to forfeit, because we weren't prepared for this amount of contact." Or, go directly to the site manager, and ask about cracking down.

Mead -- Did your opponent in that game have any complaints? Also, who won?

Once you have crossed the magical line of earning a T you are done talking in any rational manner with the official. In my judgement, trying to talk with him at a time out, etc is done after the T.

You said the Ref was patched that gave you the T. That gives him the experence to know you crossed the line. There is no place in the rule book that says you have to tell the offender why the T was called. It was unsportsman like conduct. Period. Calling him stripes might have been the easy way or sarcastic way to tell you the final straw. It might not have been the right way but I am sure you earned it. I am willing to bet at least you were out of the coaching box/ on the court while having this discussion.

No one knows where the line is with each official, but we all know when we have crossed it. Chalk it up to youth sports and take everyone out for pizza when they stop bleeding.

[Edited by Man In Blue on Feb 13th, 2006 at 12:32 PM]

I think you aren't getting my position on this. First, as a registered official, I was somewhat embarassed to get a T. Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes. As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament. If this was a JV or Varsity tilt, I could understand not stopping play. And, as a coach and ref, I have little bias in either direction. I understand both sides, which is why I asked (maybe not so directly) when one takes off their reffing veneer (dont argue calls, overlook perceived mistakes, etc.) and take up the cause for my players that were ending up on the floor with bloody lips. And, by the way, I never said I didn't deserve the T, I was just surprised he called one because I called him stripes. When I asked why he T'd me I thought it would because of my initial reaction to the no call and then the non-stoppage of play in a weekend friendship tournament for girls.

Let's say the foul was called on the breakaway. Do you think the elbow wouldn't have caused the bloody mouth? Or the game slowed down and became less physical?

Really?
 

Final straw? This happened 3 minutes into the game. Nary a word was said before the call. And, I was not out of the coaching box when i asked him why he T'd me, I signaled him over to the bench. Are some of these surly responses because you all think I am a coach only and therefore OPPOSED to refs? And, a patch alone doesn't give anyone the experience to know when someone has crossed the line. Time reffing with a patch does. And, is it your rule that after a T a coach cannot talk with you anymore? That the coach has earned the right to be ignored the balance of the game?

Yes- grab the seat belt and hold on.

Is that how you rationalize away a missed call? And, the answer could be yes, maybe it would have slowed down the aggressive play. I do know one thing: not calling the play didn't help deter future aggressive play! The girl who got elbowed in the mouth was the TALLEST GIRL on the court. How does one get an elbow up that high away from the ball? Do I believe the girl did it on purpose...of course not. But aggressive play begets aggressive play. Other than letting some pretty heavy contact go, the refs called a square game.

Philosophical difference
 

sorry, I don't see it your way. I don't see my job as adversarial to the coaches (the coaches may see it differently). When I T a coach up, they may still have my ear, they still have a team to coach and I have a game to manage. I am not saying you have one, but the Big Egoed refs in our area are some of our worst officials. They are easy to spot and it is clear they feel the game is as much about them than the teams.

Oh, nonsense. Friendship tournament, my backside. If girls are getting drilled the way you are saying, what's FRIENDLY about it?

How long have you been officiating anyway? Even the best miss a call like this once in a while. Nothing annoys officials more than an injured player and a coach wanting our ear rather than tending to the player.

And Juulie, I agree with you regarding contact at this level. But I'm still judging advantage/disadvantage on just about every bit of contact. And it drives parents and coaches NUTS at this level. But I'm not there to lead a parade to the free throw line, I'm there to officiate the game.

lmeadski - don't worry about the preaching going on. Don't know wether you "desreved" the T or not - that's up to the ref calling the game. My initial thought is that he realized they screwed up and the T was the best way to "get out of the situation"...stop worrying about it and move on. I coach HS football, and I picked up a 15 yard Unsportmanlike Conduct flag this last season - hated it, but at the time my players needed to know that we had their backs - it happens. Move on, coach the kids for the next game, and teach them to play thru the garbage.

I never did hear them complain except for a few missed traveling calls (the refs let a few close ones go, called the obvious). We ended up winning in overtime. And, having thought about it, I agree I should have gone and spoke to him at the half. But, if he were Man in Blue, I guess he would walk away. Regardless, the last part of the second half was much cleaner because, guess why, we were in the bonus.

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 13th, 2006 at 01:14 PM]

Friendship tournaments are called so because there are no tournament winners. We are there to play 3 guaranteed games and to build team skill. I have been officiating one year, coaching for 15, and fully expect calls to be missed. My assistant coach tended to the girl, who, happened to be his daughter.

Exactly. Thanks.

As with ALL coaches who post here... You did nothing wrong and the official did everything wrong. It's not your right to have the officials "ear". Coach your kids and play the game. Whining about calls and who to watch doesn't make the game better.

Infact our state association just sent out year end "reminders". The most important was that official observers are seeing officials spending too much time talking to coaches during live ball time. Coaches coach and officials officiate. When did working the officials become the way to stand up for your players?

Yes there needs to be communication between coaches and officials. But I don't want coaches coming to me during time outs and at half time telling me what I have missed or need to watch.

Your behavior needs to be a model of sportsmanship for your players, parents and fans. Your post from the begining doesn't show that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Man In Blue
As with ALL coaches who post here... You did nothing wrong and the official did everything wrong. It's not your right to have the officials "ear". Coach your kids and play the game. Whining about calls and who to watch doesn't make the game better. [Quote]

And neither does having officials who think they are bigger than the game and that all coaches do is whine...

[Quote] [i]Yes there needs to be communication between coaches and officials. But I don't want coaches coming to me during time outs and at half time telling me what I have missed or need to watch.[/B] [Quote]

Then you sure as hell better never miss anything...

And your posts on this thread show that you are quick to judge, but don't really bother to read what the original poster was getting at...

[Edited by rockyroad on Feb 13th, 2006 at 02:18 PM]

And that freed you up to go and complain to the referee? I wouldn't care for that myself. I would've told you to tend to your player and you would've risked getting whacked if you didn't comply. Even with Dad tending to the girl, you are still giving the impression that complaining to the referees takes priority over seeing if you player is OK.

Sorry, but I know that personally that after officiating one year I simply "didn't know what I didn't know." Have a patch means nothing -- in most states you get "the patch" after sending money to the state and submitting an open book test.

Consider the officials working your game. They are possibly either (1) inexperienced or (2) not terribly good. Getting on them doesn't help because they likely don't know how to talk to coaches without getting defensive. Giving you a technical for you calling them stripes is ridiculous, although calling a referee "Stripes" is equally ridiculous. Didn't you get their names before the game started? If you didn't, there's a better way to address them.

Let's pretend, just for the fun of it, that Coach is correct and the refs screwed up. Again, this is just pretending. Now if the refs just flat blew it and missed the call, the coaches initial comments begin to make some sense; surely there is always room to improve the political correctness, but realistically, the comments are understandable in the context of the refs blowing the call.

Maybe a "coach, looks like there was some contact (hello - ain't it obvious) and we missed it. Let's get the player the attention they need and we'll work harder (which, hello, should be obvious)".

Just because we miss it doesn't put more restrictions on the coaches. Short of profanity, sounds to me like the refs needed a bit of "refocus motivation" at that point. Sure, the motivation needs to be constructive rather than ranting, but if the motivation takes the form of a rant, we need to understand we probably "earned" that one and "hear" the true message - get it together!!

Mr. Stripes, Sir?


This conversation reminds me about the debate over Bigfoot? I believe in #1 Bigfoot, #2 Bad Coaches and #3 Bad Refs. Truthfully, I've seen more of #2 than anything else but I see a #3 about once a year and in a Youth Game....it's real bad news. You can't have 12 year olds bouncing off the hardwood with no whistles and not expect the game to turn into chaos.

Granted.....the "Stripes" greeting was a calculated gamble!

This weekend, I did a 5-6 YBL Game with my usual partner, the League Admin. Smooth game. Then he got tied up and I did the next one with a JV Girl Player that plays in our 9-12 League. She did a great job. Smooth game. They both split and I'm doing the 7-8 alone. I'm too slow and a kid turns and runs into me when I'm in the Trail-Trail Position. A wise$%# parent yells,

"Nice PICK, Ref."

I removed my whistle and replied, "Maybe if we had a few more volunteers instead of "observers" that wouldn't happen."

Two weeks ago, I had to physically restrain a 4-5 Coach from slugging the losing Coach! These guys got a Sumo Contest after a comment the losing Coach made in the Handshake Line. It was all I could do to hold the Winning Coach back.

On Saturday, I see the Winning Coach. I (dumbly) was kind of expecting an apology? The guy walks by me without saying anything. I, like Imedeski, can't hold back.

I said, "You know...I saved you a ton of money two weeks ago."

The Coach says, "How's that?"

I said, "Over the Lawsuit and Legal Expenses if you hit the other Coach."

End result.........the Winning Coach reported me to the League Admin!

(I know, Man in Blue......as well he should have! As well he should have.)

Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes.

As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament.
[/B][/QUOTE]Rough play does <b>not</b> equate into illegal play. Rule book sez so-- rule-4-27:

- <b>SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT</b>
<i>Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does <b>not</b> constitute a foul.
ART.1...the mere fact that contact occurs does <b>not</b> constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART.2...Contact which occurs <b>unintentionally</b> in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which might result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should <b>not</b> be considered illegal, <b>even though the contact may be severe</b>.</i>

Those are the guidelines laid out by the FED. It always has been, and always will be, a <b>judgement</b> call by the official whether <b>illegal</b> contact has occurred. In this case, there also <b>may</b> be additional factors- (1)young girls playing the game who haven't yet developed the necessary skills to play the game at a fluid level- and (2)<b>maybe</b> a newer ref officiating that hasn't really had the experience yet to develop the judgment necessary to recognize the difference between illegal contact and inadvertant contact. Of course, in #2, the other alternative is that the official <b>had</b> developed that skill, and his judgment was OK.

I don't know who is right, which is why I haven't commented. Unless I can actually see the play myself, imeadski, I don't think that I'm qualified to say who has the right take on this- you or the official. I do know that that I've seen all kinds of m/s-aged games where the overall level of physical contact was greater than most high school games, and the reason for that was simply a lack of skill on the players' part

Look a simple point. You post on an official's site that the officiating sucked in your grade school game. You give half the story that favors your point of view and we are all supposed to tell you that your a big man because you stood up for your players?

Next time you see that ref who called the T (that wasn't warranted) give him the address here. Then he can tell us how you were on him before the game started. How your parents yelled "That's 3 seconds" or "TRAVEL!" "How could you miss that?" "Are you going to call something" "They're reaching in" "That's over the back" or everyones favorite "Call it both ways".

Imeadski, I'm not disappointed in you because I think you're only-a-coach-who-comes-to-this-forum-looking-for-validation-and-whines kind of a guy. I said I was disappointed because I know that you are an official. An official should know better. I am not disappointed that you shared your story. I am disappointed that an official has that perspective to share.

I believe that most coaches are honest-to-goodness good people. I appreciate that they/you are taking the time to work with young people. I value the contributions they/you are making to society. I really do. But one of the requirements of being a "good" coach is understanding that you have a perspective and view on things that *changes* when you have a rooting interest. It just is so. I know because I used to coach a few years back. We remember all the missed travels on the other team but we don't remember the missed travels on our team. We remember the elbow that our player catches on the chin, but we don't jump up and holler at the official: "I can't believe that you're not going to call that! Did you see that? My player accidentally caught that player with her elbow. You've got to put a stop to all this nonsense because somebody is going to get hurt even though I know that my uncoordinated-and-still-growing-into-her-body center has not a single malicious bone in her body." We just don't say those things.

It's possible that the official kicked the call. It's also possible that the defensive player hustled back and that your player initiated the contact -- yes, the very contact that hurt her -- and the official decided not to bail her out.

Since a person who officiates knows that they want the benefit of the doubt when they walk into a gym because they have no stake in the outcome of the game, I'd just like to see us give those people (who, sometimes happen to be us!) the benefit of the doubt.

I *am* sorry that your player got hurt. I hope she's O.K.

Your Point: after one year maybe I dont know what i dont know. My reply: Correct. Isn't that why we come here, to learn what we dont know?

Your Point: consider officials working your game. I believe #1 was possibly true (the female ref was 22, the patch couldn't have been more than 25). Can't comment on #2, only seen them do one game, and, this incident happened 3 minutes into the game.

I could not get the names before we started. They rotate officials to various courts throughout the day. Between games there is a 2 minute warmup. Many times the refs dont hit the court until tip-off. Having a name would have certainly been helpful. Why did I call him stripes?: Well, its the name of our State Officials Guide that comes out every year. I thought it to be the equivalent of calling a baseball ump "blue," which I've done regularly as a youth baseball coach (and, never got run off the field for it...).

Tending to my player: Well, I couldn't run out onto the court as the play continued. As soon as the whistle blew, my asst ran to check on his daughter. I walked out to her and her dad to see how she was (hands over her right side of face, now walking towards bench). I met them just beyond half court, she takes her hands down, they eye has tears streaming out of it and is as red as if she rubbed salsa in it (I know, i've done it!). Her face is also beat red, but I assumed from a combo of the contact and crying. I then walk her to the bench with her dad (of course, time is out, charged to me by the way, refs wouldn't take one on them even though I asked), I returned to the sidelines, stand in the coaching box, then addressed him as stripes (ball not yet in play, we were working on sending in our substitute). Whack!

The patch in this state is earned via 2 open book tests and $35 (dollar amount may be a bit off).

Rough play does <b>not</b> equate into illegal play. Rule book sez so-- rule-4-27:

- <b>SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT</b>
<i>Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does <b>not</b> constitute a foul.
ART.1...the mere fact that contact occurs does <b>not</b> constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART.2...Contact which occurs <b>unintentionally</b> in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which might result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should <b>not</b> be considered illegal, <b>even though the contact may be severe</b>.</i>

Those are the guidelines laid out by the FED. It always has been, and always will be, a <b>judgement</b> call by the official whether <b>illegal</b> contact has occurred. In this case, there also <b>may</b> be additional factors- (1)young girls playing the game who haven't yet developed the necessary skills to play the game at a fluid level- and (2)<b>maybe</b> a newer ref officiating that hasn't really had the experience yet to develop the judgment necessary to recognize the difference between illegal contact and inadvertant contact. Of course, in #2, the other alternative is that the official <b>had</b> developed that skill, and his judgment was OK.

I don't know who is right, which is why I haven't commented. Unless I can actually see the play myself, imeadski, I don't think that I'm qualified to say who has the right take on this- you or the official. I do know that that I've seen all kinds of m/s-aged games where the overall level of physical contact was greater than most high school games, and the reason for that was simply a lack of skill on the players' part [/B][/QUOTE]

JR, not looking for right or wrong. I am not looking for an indictment of the ref. I am not looking for anyone to say I was right or wrong. If you look at the post, my question was: when does a ref, who is first a dad and then a coach, take off his ref's shirt and put on his coach's shirt in a situation like this. I am sure if this was posted in a coach's forum, the reply would be coach's shirt first. Most of the replies here have been ref's shirt first (not to my surprise or dismay). I was also wearing another shirt: father and protector of the girls entrusted to me by their parents. The irony of the situation is what I wanted to share. And, with some of the replies (Man in Blue and his replies) it is not hard to see why a wall exists between some in the coaching/player and reffing communities.

Geez! I think I also had to send in a "Wheaties" box top. :eek:

I never said the refs sucked, and I certainly don't need or am looking for validation from the likes of you regarding my manlihood. Regardless, thank you for your input. I will ponder it closely as I think further about this situation.

You forgot the 10 Campbell Soup labels. Aren't you from the UP? Oatmeal Queen was telling me how much she thinks of you.

Like I said before, ignore the preaching...do I think it was "good" that you got a T - nope. Do I think it is realistic to expect the best refs in a U-12 game - nope. Do I think any coach deserves a T for calling an official Stripes - nope. Do I believe that there are times when a coach needs to stand up for his players - yep. And when I officiate, I fully expect a coach to be an active advocate for his/her players...that doesn't mean they get to take potshots at my crew all night - but when someone is down and hurt, there's probably gonna be some questions that I need to be able to answer...

After reading through the thread I'll add my $.02:

These 11 year old games are usually brutal - players, fans & coaches are generally out of control and the officials generally don't have enough experience to know how to handle it. As you've written your story here it sounds like too much was being let go. BUT...as others have said I think there's an entirely different side of this story waiting to be told by the officials. At some point if the game was truly getting too rough you should have just gone & quietly spoken to the other coach about it, and then tournament staff if the coach didn't agree to help calm things down. That option probably had much more potential for success than getting "into the ref's soup", whatever that means.

YU.P.
And she's a nice person.

Oatmeal Queen was telling me how much she thinks of you. [/B][/QUOTE]

YU.P.
And she's a nice person. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's........nice.
http://www.webdeveloper.com/animatio...commentary.gif

Agreed. In retrospect I think that would have worked better. I wasn't upset about the foul initially, calls will be missed. I was concerned that, at this level, with girls, the play was allowed to continue as our girl lay in a heap. Remember, the lead on the play (who was now the trail) looked back at this girl twice as play resumed. We were saying there was an injured player. Only after we got the whistle (team had since shot twice until we secured the rebound), and I saw the extent of the "no contact" on the girl's face and eye, did I question the official. I became more disappointed as the rough play continued. Funny thing is, the team was from a neighboring town. We had already worked out plans for a scrimmage in the coming weeks (which we intend to keep, their girls wouldn't try to purposely injure our girls). However, as many have said, at this age some of these games turn into brawls. I would expect an official to know that and call the game accordingly. My PRIMARY responsiblity that day, and at that moment, was to my players. Again, I wanted discussion on the irony of the situation and input how best to handle it in the future (also, wanted feedback on whether any of you would be offended being called "Stripes"). I am not looking for any validation for my actions.

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 13th, 2006 at 04:41 PM]

YU.P.
And she's a nice person. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's........nice.
http://www.webdeveloper.com/animatio...commentary.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay. JR, yer nice, too..., <small>when you wanna be. :)</small>

That's........nice.
http://www.webdeveloper.com/animatio...commentary.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay. JR, yer nice, too..., <small>when you wanna be. :)</small>
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, you already used that picture! Get some new material...and mick, does Mrs. mick know how much Oatmeal thinks of you?????

Yeah, yeah, I know JR. I'll say it for you...shutup.

Hey, you already used that picture! Get some new material [/B][/QUOTE]Bad rocky...
http://www.forumspile.com/Stupid-Sit_in_the_corner.jpg
Bad, bad rocky.....

And don't forget to let your students see what happens to their teacher when he's a bad boy.

To answer your question, dj.:

Yes. My wife, as well as oatmealqueen, can spell *hyperbole*. :)

ROFLMAO...good thing the students left about 5 minutes ago!!

You want irony? Try this...

You admit the best course of action would have been to talk to the opposing coach - the guy you're scheduling scrimmages with because they would never purposely hurt your players other than the odd bloody mouth or swollen eye - about the behavior of his players.

And still you want to somehow blame the officials because the other team was out of control in terms of your players getting injured...and if they were justified in T'ing you up.

I gotta admit, I don't get it.

And I have to admit, I can't understand why you can't get the point of my post?! I posted this due to the irony of being a coach and a ref. I never said I didn't deserve a T. I was surprised the reason I got one was for calling him Stripes, and not for commenting on cleaning up the game play. I was primiarly upset because they WOULDN'T STOP PLAY FOR THE INJURED PLAYER. I did mention I wouldn't have argued if this were high school ball. They were 11 and 12 year old girls in a tournament with no trophies, medals, etc. Did you read the post that said after they went into bonus, the rough play ended? Gee, go figure!

And yes, we will play them again, and I will find officials who will ref the game a bit tighter so as to keep rough play at a minimum.

By the way, I misread your prior thread. I would not have approached the coach alone to discuss HER players actions. I would have approached her to discuss cleaning up play with the officials. I think it would be important to include the refs in the discussion as it's one of the refs jobs to try keep game play fluid and from getting out of control. In this game, once we hit bonus, coach was all over her girls to limit the reach ins and other aggressive play. Guess what, rough play ended! Its not rocket science, Dan.

No, it's not.

Rough play can always be stopped by the coach, especially at the age level we're discussing.

But it's the official's fault.

Go figure.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of your season.

Rough play can be stopped by the coach and/or managed by the refs. Refs control rough play by calling fouls and enforcing the rules. Ever had an ingame conference with your fellow refs in a game where rough play is escalataing? Go figure.

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 14th, 2006 at 10:33 AM]

But by your own admission the refs were not helping.

Which means the responsibility falls to the coaches.

Glad we can agree on something.

Rough play can always be stopped by the coach, especially at the age level we're discussing.

[/B][/QUOTE]Gasp.....

Are you intimating that a coach might just possibly... maybe have the teeniest, weeniest, slightest, minisculest bit of responsibility for the way his kids actually play?

What a novel concept!

It'll never catch on though. It's always <b>sooooooo</b> much easier to blame the real culprits- the officials.

Cleopatra wasn't the only Queen of Denile. :D

Gasp.....

Are you intimating that a coach might just possibly... maybe have the teeniest, weeniest, slightest, minisculest bit of responsibility for the way his kids actually play?

What a novel concept!

It'll never catch on though. It's always <b>sooooooo</b> much easier to blame the real culprits- the officials.

Cleopatra wasn't the only Queen of Denile. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Coaches and players have first and full responsibility for how kids play. Referees are in position to INFLUENCE how the kids play and how the coaches act by enforcing the rules. If the coaches and players continue their aggressive play, rule enforcement will amply penalize them: bonus, double bonus, flagrant fouls and maybe technicals. Continued non-compliance only hurts the offending team and it is their prerogative to act any way they choose. Denial is thinking that refs have no influence on a game. Of course we do, and, depending how tight or loose we call a game, undue influence.

The logical assumption in your statement is that the refs have first responsibility for rough play, coaches second (...responsibility falls to the coaches). Hhhhmmmmmm. See my prior post on this matter....

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 14th, 2006 at 10:51 AM]

Regardless of what you infer we can agree that you didn't live up to your own responsibilities in this case.

Coaches and players have first and full responsibility for how kids play. Referees are in position to INFLUENCE how the kids play and how the coaches act by enforcing the rules. If the coaches and players continue their aggressive play, rule enforcement will amply penalize them: bonus, double bonus, flagrant fouls and maybe technicals. [/B][/QUOTE]Exactly.

And the officials enforce the rules using <b>their</b> judgment as to whether a foul actually occurred or there was incidental contact. Officials do <b>not</b> call fouls using a <b>coach's</b> judgment. Somehow, I don't think that process would really work, no matter how much you advocate it. :)

The bottom line still remains that the players you're dealing with are unskilled, pre-teenage kids. And maybe you're also dealing with newer, unskilled officials also. I can't say that with certainty however; I never saw the officials. Until then, they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

Let it go. It's done; it's over; ain't anybody gonna come along and commit CPR on that game and bring it back to life either. Onwards and upwards....

Yes, my logical inference from your stated premise. And, I agree that, as a ref, I should not have drawn a T in a game. That was never at question here Danno. I may have shirked my responsibilities as a ref (even though I wasn't reffing) but I did not shirk my responsiblities to my players.

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 14th, 2006 at 12:57 PM]

Exactly.

And the officials enforce the rules using <b>their</b> judgment as to whether a foul actually occurred or there was incidental contact. Officials do <b>not</b> call fouls using a <b>coach's</b> judgment. Somehow, I don't think that process would really work, no matter how much you advocate it. :)

The bottom line still remains that the players you're dealing with are unskilled, pre-teenage kids. And maybe you're also dealing with newer, unskilled officials also. I can't say that with certainty however; I never saw the officials. Until then, they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

Let it go. It's done; it's over; ain't anybody gonna come along and commit CPR on that game and bring it back to life either. Onwards and upwards.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed. Time to move on.

Again, glad we can agree that as a coach you shirked your responsibilities, lmeadski-o

Coaches and players have first and full responsibility for how kids play. Referees are in position to INFLUENCE how the kids play and how the coaches act by enforcing the rules. If the coaches and players continue their aggressive play, rule enforcement will amply penalize them: bonus, double bonus, flagrant fouls and maybe technicals. Continued non-compliance only hurts the offending team and it is their prerogative to act any way they choose. Denial is thinking that refs have no influence on a game. Of course we do, and, depending how tight or loose we call a game, undue influence. [/B][/QUOTE]

Having to deal with coaches like you is the reason I work nothing but varsity high school basketball and the occasional college game. I'd rather whack my head off a cement wall than call youth rec games these days. And that includes basketball, baseball, AND football.

There's no worse thing we can hear on a court than "I'm a ref, too" coming out of the mouth of one of the coaches. Guy coaches for 20 years but sends in $50 to the state and an open-book test (which he passes with a minimum score) and all of a sudden he's "one of us." That's the guy who's going to be the most trouble on the court, most of the time.

Exactly.

And the officials enforce the rules using <b>their</b> judgment as to whether a foul actually occurred or there was incidental contact. Officials do <b>not</b> call fouls using a <b>coach's</b> judgment. Somehow, I don't think that process would really work, no matter how much you advocate it. :)

The bottom line still remains that the players you're dealing with are unskilled, pre-teenage kids. And maybe you're also dealing with newer, unskilled officials also. I can't say that with certainty however; I never saw the officials. Until then, they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

Let it go. It's done; it's over; ain't anybody gonna come along and commit CPR on that game and bring it back to life either. Onwards and upwards.... [/B][/QUOTE]

But he's going to go hire officials that will call the game tighter -- in other words, the way he wants.

I hear this all the time in girls games, even at the varsity level. Parents complaining about girls "going to get hurt" when they dive on the floor after loose balls, etc. Amazing how those same parents only scream for fouls when they would be the beneficiary of the calls, though.

It takes no skill whatsoever to blow a whistle every time players are contacted. ANYONE can do that.