It seems to me that people in USA think FIBA is a second rate something.

In the USA it appears you have various Rules for different levels of competition.
ie: NBA WNBA NCAA NFHS etc

The rest of the world uses one set of Rules. Those put out by FIBA.
Australia's highest competition the NBL uses FIBA(modified).

FIBA is not just about the Olympics.

The FIBA rules are used in under 10 years domestic competition and up through to the World Championship and Olympics.

I believe that all variants of the rules are 70% to 80% the same. The philosophy of the game is basically the same but yet I think some of the posts I read here show a pedantic attitude by some officials and a lack of ability to manage coaches and players. An official who gives a coach or player tech too quickly is not helping the game or fellow officials who do later games with the coach.

Our referee levels are
0
1
2
3 State
4 National
FIBA There are less than 20 of these officials in Australia.

Level 2 and above officials in my opinion would not have any problem refereing in USA at the appropriate level after some work with your rules.

I'm sorry you feel that way. In the U.S. we have to put up with the different rules at various levels because we can. Your FIBA rules are fine except we never see them until we apply at USA basketball to start calling international ball. None of our courts have your lane markings so nobody uses your rules. We arn't putting you down, we just can't relate to you until the olympics or the World professional tournament. Hay, most of us even put down the NBA's(Not Basketball Anymore) rules.

Don't take it personally, as Tim says we in the US are not
exposed to FIBA all that much and it's kind of irrelavent
to us (not a bad thing, just true). We also like to joke
about T's & coach/player/referee interaction but believe me
most of what is said is in jest.

BTW, I find it cute that you claim to have "... one set of
Rules. Those put out by FIBA. Australia's highest
competition the NBL uses FIBA(modified)." That would make
2 sets of rules no? :)

I'm usually the one who refers to FIBA as FEEBLE. My typical ugly American bias is for some international (or worse - Euro) self-appointed governing body with the audacity to think they know better how the strictly American game of basketball (actually, invented by a Canadian working in the US) should be played.

It reminds me of the outcry from the international community when our professional soccer (yes - I said soccer, not football, which is an entirely different game altogether) league fiddled with the center line offsides rule a few years ago. (BTW -soccer is that game for kids who can't use their hands)

Do we have different sets of rules in the US for different levels of competition? Of course. So what? It's for the same reason Major League Baseball doesn't use aluminum bats, and the NFL insistes players be down by contact. As people get bigger and stronger, they need rules that take into consideration their increased size and strength.

So...not all of us feel the reason we make pejorative remarks regarding FIBA rules is because we are not familiar with them; some of us feel that way because we feel US basketball organizations have an inherent right to make those rules.

Mark is exactly right. We have different rules, which are essentially different rules for different age groups. Most kids play by the Natinal Federation of High Schools rules. NCAA rules are designed to allow the more mature players to grow and use their skills. Obviously, the NBA is in a league of it's own. It's entertainment but it's also adult basketball at it's highest level.

As Mark said, this may sound like the ugly American but basketball on the international level has not reached the level of American basketball. International teams that have taken our collegiate kids to the limit are usually made up of professional league players. I do not believe the best amatuer players in the world would be any match for the 2001 Duke Blue Devils, MSU Spartans, or UNC Tar Heels.

Don't use the Olympics as an example. The professional players that we send now are the best in the world. However, it's a group of superstars, not a team. There probably isn't an international team in the world that could have beaten the 1989 Pistons, the 1996 Bulls or the 2000 Lakers.

As far as the World Championship goes, it simply has no meaning to most American basketball fans. Most feel that the best basketball team in the world is the team that wins the NBA Finals.

I'm sorry but 99% of American basketball fans feel this way and there's really nothing that can be said to change their minds.

Mark, as an Australian referee that uses FEEBLE rules, I have a couple of points. Firstly I have no problem with different competitions having different rules. Obiously the NBA is more about entertainment than basketball. Equally, the Olympics (and World Championships) is about equality and playing to a set of rules that are the same all around the world. I think it is interesting to note that FIBA and NBA (I can't speak for NF or NCAA) rules seem to be slowly gravitating towards each other and forming a compromise.

However, I do have a problem with this concept that because an American (or a Canadian working in the USA) developed the original game, then no other country or nationality can have any input as to the way the <b>modern</b> game is played. According to that argument shouldn't all American car manufacturers be banned from modifying the way an engine works as the original was developed in Europe? And shouldn't we still be playing according to Naismith's original 13 rules?

Let's face it, basketball is a global game, that is part of what makes it great. There are more non-americans than Americans playing the game. Even at the elite level (NBA) there is an ever increasing number of non_americans playing (and excelling) so to say that basketball is a strictly American sport is conceited and blantently incorrect.

To those of you that have stated that the Olympics is not considered the pinnicle of basketball in America, I can understand your viewpoint, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, even Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have stated that winning Olympic gold was the highlight of their career as it shows that they are truely the best in the world. Why not listen to those that have succeeded in every aspect of basketball, and indeed life?

Phew...now that I have that off my chest, I look forward to the can of worms that I have opened here! :)

I don't think Americans feel FIBA is second rate. Because exposure to Fiba rules is very limited in the U.S., it's just different and with anything different or new comes a bit of scrutiny or skepticism...it's just human nature. Not everyone has the ability to see something different than the norm and be receptive to it right away.

In Canada (probably the most similar country to Australia), we have multiple sets of rules. I work 4 different sets of rules. Two sets are FIBA based with some modifications and the other two are NCAA based with modifications. I grew up on FIBA rules, but having the opportunity to learn NCAA rules has changed my opinion. I, along with many other refs, coaches, and players prefer NCAA based rules to FIBA.

So without knocking FIBA rules, I'll simply side with my closer neighbors to the south.

Since you are obviously familiar with both NCAA and FIBA rules, what (to you) are the advantages that NCAA has over FIBA?

Is it mainly mechanics and the way in which games are run, or is it the actual rule differences that you believe are superior?

I would be really interested in your response.

Cheers

The mechanics aren't that different. It's the rules and flow I enjoy more. To list all the differences would take too long, but here are my favorites:

AP instead of jump balls
Penalty/Bonus (1-1 on the 7th, 2 on the 10th)
Time outs (number of and calling of/ full or 30 secs)
Playing Time (halves instead of quarters)
Substitutions (when permitted and when you bring them in)

Interesting, FIBA used to have 1-1 penalty but that changed about 8 years ago. We also used to play in halves, but that only changed last year. Seems to me, that NCAA is fairly similar to the FIBA rules that I started refereeing with (some 15 years ago). While the current FIBA rules are moving more closely towards NBA (or vice versa).

I wonder how many people in America are certifed international fiba refs. My guess is not many.

Your point is? To my knowledge there is a very limited of international FIBA rules in the world (ie those that can referee Olympics or World Championships). Or did you mean referees in the USA that know FIBA rules?

Please clarify.

Easy enough to say once you've attained the succes they have
in the NBA. Frankly, I don't hear many players in the US
saying "When I grow up I want to win the Olympic gold
for USA basketball!" In fact, to be quite blunt, non-US
basketball (euro, etc) is viewed as a fall back position
for those who don't attract college or NBA attention. Over
here we call it the minor leagues.

Here are your worms!
 

First, the FIBA rules have nothing to do with why Americans prefer our own version of basketball over what the rest of the world does. We simply have the best basketball in the world here. It seems as if this is what this discussion has boiled down to. But to discuss the rules before we get into the rest of it, as has been said, we only see FIBA rules every 4 years. That's why we're so unconcerned with it. And, as Mark said, we consider the professional leagues overseas as minor league. If a player can't make the NBA, then he goes to Europe. He can generally make a lot of money and can sometimes be the team's star player. Yet, he couldn't make the team in the NBA.

And why do you think that is? Could it be that FIBA has moved more towards the NBA rule standard since the NBA became involved in international play in 1992?

Quote:

However, I do have a problem with this concept that because an American (or a Canadian working in the USA) developed the original game, then no other country or nationality can have any input as to the way the <b>modern</b> game is played.

I don't think anyone is saying that. The simple fact is that most Americans see the international game every 4 years. But we're exposed to HS, NCAA, and NBA from October to June of each year. For the most part, the level of play in FIBA is not what it is in the USA. Perhaps that's why some refer to it as "FEEBLE."



I'm sure you can get us the figures to support such a bold statement.



Yes, some international players have been successful in the NBA. I'm sure more will in the future. But it's still a very small percentage, easily less than 10%.

WHOA! Okay, here we go! I've followed Michael Jordan's career since he was a freshman at North Carolina in 1981. I saw him play in high school since he only lived about 90 miles away. I have never read or heard him say that winning the Olympic Gold medals were the highlight of his career. Can you provide references? I'm sure that it's one of the highlights of his career because he represented his country. But it certainly wasn't because it was played under FIBA rules.

He and Magic knew who the best players in world are long before the 1992 Olympics.

Re: Here are your worms!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
And why do you think that is? Could it be that FIBA has moved more towards the NBA rule standard since the NBA became involved in international play in 1992?



[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
I'm sure you can get us the figures to support such a bold statement.



1. Funny, I would have said that the NBA is moving just as much towards FIBA as FIBA is to the NBA. Have a look at the "illegal defence" rule which is the most obvious (but not only) example.

2. Do the math. Say the percentage of Americans that play organised basketball (not counting pickup games) is 10% that is approximately 30 million people. Which is less that 1% of the total population of the world. Just look at countries like China, Brazil, Germany, Nigeria, Australia, Canada, etc where basketball is already very popular, and growing exponentially.

I buy the fact that more people in the world are playing the game than americans, but it will be a while before they play it better than us on a consistant basis.

Look at Hockey, Canadians were far superior for many, many years, now it is about 60-40 to the rest of the world in the NHL. Are there more non-canadians than canadians playing the game all over the world, yes. Are the non-canucks better at it, not yet.

We could probably repeat this argument over and over just substituting the sports and country names but these come to mind:

USA Track vs the world
Asian Volleyball vs the world
Soccer in Europe or South America vs the world
Rugby in Australia vs the world
Any russian or former russian country gymnast vs the world (although I only see this every 4 years, so it is a best guess).

This whole disagrement boils down to on thing - desire. I have no need or desire to ever work an international game. I think that is the main sticking point to the way Americans view the international game. It is not ugly americanism, just apathy. Tragic or MJ may have said those things, but I have to say the Olympics looked like a effort for the last few dream teams. I would say some flat out did not want to be there. The college kids used to love going because it was their spring board to a higher draft spot in the NBA. Now it is just work.

To give you a good idea. In Colorado Springs, Home of USA Basketball, our High School association of 150 had only three officials that I knew of certified for FIBA. Check with USA Basketball if you want the total number of officials certified.

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You made the following statement earlier in this discussion.

So which is it? Is the NBA moving to FIBA rules or is FIBA moving towards NBA rules? Make up your mind.

Quite honestly, I'm not really concerned with how many people outside the US are playing basketball. It's growing and that's wonderful. But since we're discussing it, I just simply asked you to back it up with facts. It seems you can't.

Secondly, now you're putting put conditions on it, such as not counting pickup games. Sorry but millions of Americans play basketball each week, in leagues, at lunch at the YMCA, etc. You just can't discount those people. I believe that soccer enthusiasts will still tell you that soccer is the most popular sport internationally.

Lastly, do you really think that 10% of the world, outside the US plays basketball. I guess if you want to make the assumption that there are more people in the world playing basketball than there are in the USA, you possibly can. It's only based on the population of each. But I would still venture to guess that there are a higher percentage of Americans that participate in sports that play basketball than there is in the world or any other country.

Face it Oz, basketball is an American sport. The rest of the world is still catching up. Until they do, many will continue to refer to FIBA as FEEBLE.

Re: Re: Here are your worms!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oz Referee

Quote:

Let's face it, basketball is a global game, that is part of what makes it great. There are more non-americans than Americans playing the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef I'm sure you can get us the figures to support such a bold statement. 2. Do the math. Say the percentage of Americans that play organised basketball (not counting pickup games) is 10% that is approximately 30 million people. Which is less that 1% of the total population of the world. Just look at countries like China, Brazil, Germany, Nigeria, Australia, Canada, etc where basketball is already very popular, and growing exponentially.

Ahh come on, this is a ridiculous argument. I claim that
100% of all Americans play basketball and less than .00001%
of the rest of the known universe plays basketball.
In fact, I'm claiming that there are an additional 100
million uncounted Americans playing organized basketball
today. So I'm right & you're wrong. (When you substantiate
your figures I'll substantiate mine.)

On a serious note, I'll be willing to bet that there are
more *kids* playing organized basketball up through the
12th grade in the US than there are *people* who even know
what a basketball looks like outside the US. Well, except
those who have seen a basketball being dribbled or shot by
an NBA guy on TV or in a picture.

Reminds me of the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"...if a person is playing or reffing in an area which uses FIBA rules, you better know the FIBA rules...if not, why should we care what the differences are? I had the opportunity several years ago to ref the Nike World Master's games in Portland, Oregon...it was a blast, and they used international rules for the most part...I worked one game with a guy from Canada and a guy from Australia - interesting to say the least...best part of the whole tournament was reffing the Australian Women's team of 30 and under - they wore those same uniform/tights things their Olympic team wears - made it awful hard to concentrate on the game!!

Is that because the numbers were in metric units??? ;)

Damn those worms
 

Well, I think I will leave the whole FIBA vs USA, etc etc debate alone now. Everyone has their own opinion, and is entitled to it. At the very least, I got some interested (although slightly one-sided, give me some help guys!) debate occurring.

On to uniforms - there was an Under 18's women's team from a suburb of Sydney several years ago that had the bodysuits. In their wisdom the players had chosed to make the tops of the suits out of ventmesh. As an easily excited 16 year old referee at the time, it was AWFUL hard to cocentrate on the game :)

Halfway through the season, after many complaints by parents, they changed their uniforms - one of the saddest days in my life :(

Re: Re: Re: Here are your worms!
 

You da man, Dan! :D

This argument is becoming silly.
 

Guys, you cares what level is better, and who plays more basketball. I believe that the orginal question was why American officials had the attitude about FIBA rule?

Let us face it, basketball is an American sport period. Before kids can walk kids are trying to bounce a basketball. We have hoops on almost every playground. Look in almost any shoe store you are going to find the biggest section of shoes for basketball. Almost all the sports wear in those stores are basketball gear. You do not see the same attitude towards soccer, or baseball, or football even. You can find basketball stuff all year round, unlike the other sports. And then that we get to see what is on TV, basketball is on the tube almost year round. If the NBA is not one TV, then there is NCAA, and then there is the WNBA during the summer.

Us Americans do not see FIBA basketball but for every 4 years, and considering the TV coverage not many of us really saw any of that coverage at all anyway.

So to expect a group of people, from a particular country to think of a set of rules or a game that is literally foreign to us, is a stretch at best.

And as officials, to expect us to care about a level that most of us do not have a desire to officiate, is kind of silly too. I do not want to ever be seen on a Women's NCAA game in life, am I wrong because I do not want to do that? Or am I wrong that I do not want to do a NBA game either?

Look, when we are children many of our dreams are established by what ever we see or know. Officiating dreams are no different. And if you have not figured it already, FIBA levels are no differerent here.

Sorry, when I watched the show Preps on Fox Sports, I did not hear a single kid talk about going to the Olympics or wanting to play basketball overseas. NCAA and NBA was it, but you already knew that.

Peace

Re: Damn those worms
 

See, it's those damn metric numbers again! Even the Aussies
have a hard time (ahem) understanding them! :)

Re: This argument is becoming silly.
 

While it may seem silly to you, you made some of the exact some points that I made. It's just discussion and I, for one, unfortunately have nothing better to do today. :)

Now that's funny!
 

Good one!!!!!
mick

Hey are you guys still using BINARY!!!

Do you remember the Canadian's name?

I'm shocked!!!
 

Holy s--t!! <p>The last guy I thought that would jump in as a <b>mediator</b> was JRutledge! He's usually stirring the pot.:p Now, JR, before you go typing up a storm, I'm just ribbing you a bit. No, really, put down the thesaurus. I'm just kidding. ;)<p>Love ya, Man!

Well Big Dave
 

I can see you do not read this site very much. Actually you could not read many that I am on. I many times have nothing to do with most discussions on this board or any other for that matter, especially ones that are a debate about silly things. Only people that are outside of the US make a big deal over international rules compared what goes on in other countries.


Unless I start the discussion, I pretty much stay out of it. But for those that have a sport attentions span, you might think I give a damn. But then again, you made the comments, not me.

Peace

Re: Well Big Dave
 

Rut,
I got a sport attentions span, but it only is good for about 6 innings.
mick

Re: Re: Well Big Dave
 

Hey Mick, let's stick to basketball over here, OK? What
you've got is a 30 second attention span, which is an
improvement over a few years ago when you only had a
20.

Well Big Dan
 

Sparky,
Stick to baseball? Well, that'd be a hit.
It's people like you that ...uh...er....

Re: Re: Re: Well Big Dave
 

Could be worse. He could have a 3 second attention span. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Well Big Dave
 

And if he did he would have some coach counting them off for
him: "One!!! Two!!! Three!!!!" :)

NEWSFLASH!!!
 

Rut,

I was just joking. Pulling your leg. Ribbing you. Talking smack. Pushing your buttons.

Get the point now?

Hey Big Dave
 

Just to keep up some chat

Are we not all "Brothers"

Do not all referees no matter what particular rule book only seek to improve their rule knowledge and application.

Do not we all have problems with coaches and players and spectators who do not know the rules.

Let us put some theories forward on how these people get their knowledge.

I think it is by Osmosis when they walk past a referees gearbag in which resides the "Rule Book".

"My Definition"

Osmosis is the passage of knowledge from a region of high concentration through a semi-permeable membrane to a region of low concentration and intellect.

I wholeheartedly agree!
 

We ARE all brothers and sisters. Even though we live in different regions, have different philosophies and strive for different goals, we do share a common bond. That bond is to officiate to the best of our ability. And by doing this, we provide a service to millions of folks so they may enjoy the greatest game (besides golf) ever.

Re: I wholeheartedly agree!
 

"We are the world!
We are the people..."

Barf!!!! :eek:

Re: DUH!!!!!!!!!!!
 

HEEELLLLOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I was doing the same buddy. Do you not know when someone is giving it back to you. I think you take yourself a little too seriously. I think you have to do a bit more than say some words on this or any other forum.

You need more of a life if you think I give two cents what you say or if you are ribbing me here. I can see you do not know much of my background or my personality. I am always talking sh*t.

Peace

FIBA Rules.
 

I have been a basketball official for thirty years (NFHS-30yrs; NAGWS-10yrs; NCAA Women's-17yrs; NCAA Men's-4yrs; and FIBA(actually a USA Basketball Referee)-8yrs.) I am a student of the rules of basketball and that includes the mechanics of officiating. And I would hope that every basketball official would remember that he too is a student of the rules of basketball and its officiating mechanics.

I am a rules interpreter, I teach an OhioHSAA sanctioned basketball officiating class, have been on the staff of two IAABO officiating camps, and currently sit on three national committiess for IAABO.

Because of my involvement in areas of basketball officiating other that than actual officiating of games, I have found that it has been very beneficial to be familiar with all of the rule codes and mechanics that are used around the world. I use to get the NBA Rule Book, Casebook, and Mechanics Book directly from the NBA office. Now I regularily read the NBA/WNBA rules on their websites so that I know how their rules compare with the NFHS/NCAA rules and the FIBA rules.

I will admit that I am extremely proud and love the fact that the USA is still the greatest country in basketball in the world but I have not lost sight of the fact that basketball is played under three basic sets of rules: NFHS/NCAA, NBA/WNBA, and FIBA. And, all three sets of rules are basically the same, and the philosphy of how the rules are interpreted and applied are pretty much the same.

Because of the internet we have access to all of the rule codes and various basketball organizations which enables us to become familiar with how these three sets of rules go together.

I am now going to get down off my soap box and let other people wax more eloquently than myself on the subject.

Re: FIBA Rules.
 

Mark, I had thought by now this was already waxed up all
nice & shiny, at least shiny enough for my limited attention
span. BTW, nice resume. ;)

Re: FIBA Rules.
 

Well said Mark


Malcolm

Timeout!
 

You guys make me laugh!

Re: Timeout!
 

And just what did we say that made you laugh.

Everything.