Halftime of JV boys game. Varsity player, in uniform with warmup top, joins the JV players for shoot-around. He dunks while the refs are on the court.

Is this varsity player a "team member" and thus given a T for the ilegal dunk? 4-34-4 says a team member is "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player." 4-34-2 says bench personnel are "all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s)."

Our board interpreter said it should be a T for the dunk and the official should have the scorer add the varsity player to the score book. Then it is a second T for the administrative penalty.

I am having a hard time getting past the definition of "team member." I read the key language of 4-34-2 "including, but not limited to..." as referring to other non-players such as trainers, injured players not in uniform but sitting on the bench, etc. I do not see how it includes a varsity player who is not on the bench nor part of the JV team. But...there can be no doubt a varsity player is "affiliated" with the JV team.

The irony is this came up at our board meeting on Thursday night, when the interpreter explained how this should be handled. And a ref I worked with on Sunday said he had the exact play in his game on Friday night. So the officials handled it as directed by the interpreter. But the JV coach was not happy that the opponents got to start the second half with four free throws and the ball.

Sounds like it was handled right. I'm hoping the JV coach was unhappy with the player and himself, not the officials. It wasn't them who let the player on the floor in uniform and had him dunk.

Then the JV Coach should keep the Varsity player off "his" court. If he does not have any more control over the players than this...then the punishment fits the crime.
(Especially if that is what your board interp wants)

I'm in MA, and I've heard no such interpretation, either from the international organization or from the state board. I would be VERY reluctant to T the varsity player in that situation. I would prefer to simply move them off the court. In my humble opinion, I don't think the varsity player qualifies as bench personnel for the JV game.

Just tell the varsity player to get off the court and move on. I would not give a T for a non-player dunking the ball when that player is not directly associated with the team. I think giving a T is looking for trouble.

Peace

How do you know if the suited-up player is on the V or the JV squad?

BayStateRef said he was on the V.

Are you asking how he knew? Two possibilities, at least. One, the JV's often are wearing different uniforms from the V squad. If not, then: two, a quick question at the table.

I'm not sure that was the correct way to handle the situation either Chuck. From the definition originally given of bench personnel, the varsity player does not fit. It said something to the effect of anyone "eligible to play/enter the game." The varsity player is not eligible to participate. I wouldn't T here just remove and warn both he a JV/Varsity coach. But if you do T here, I bet it wont happen again.

No, I'm asking you.

A1, suited up with warmup on dunks 14 minutes before the JV game is about to start.

Since you're hesitant to T a varsity player in this situation, do you go & ask him which team he plays for?

Or the table?

Or JV coach A?

What's your process to determine A1 is on the varsity squad & not the JV squad?

I would ask the team's scorer. "Is that guy on the JV squad list?" He/She won't know why I'm asking, so I will most likely get an honest answer.

Why is s/he not eligible to participate? Is there a specific rule that says a varsity person cannot play in a JV contest? I know that some JV player also play in varsity contests. My son did it several times as a freshman.

So this is your practice ANY time a player dunks pregame or at the half?

What if she says no?

Chuck and JRut...
Why is there a rule requiring the officials to issue a T to a "player" dunking the ball during warm-ups?

IMO...I could care less if the players dunk the ball while I'm on the court. In fact, I would like to see it...who doesn't like to see a dunk? But, it is not my decision...it is what the NFHS (and apparently the board interp) wants...a T.

So back to the original question. For whatever reason NFHS does not want dunks during pregame. (Injuries, showing up officials, Sportsmanship issues, etc.)

So why are you giving the "show off" Varsity player a free pass in the JV warm-ups, when you wouldn't in the V warm-ups?

Also...not that it matters much...but, there could be some confusion in the crowd. Why are the officials letting this "player" dunk (penalty free), when they won't let the other "players" dunk? Looks inconsistent...IMO.

The original post said its halftime. 1. So the face probably should be familiar. 2. Most JV players dont come out of halftime w/warm-ups on. 3. Check his #, or ask before you T. If he is JV, then WHACK. If he is Varsity then run him off the court, tell him he could cost the JV coach his box and 2 free throws. Then tell the V and JV coaches.

Nate, I don't care when it happens.

I'm just wondering how Chuck (and you) handle this in general. I see in your case you give him a warning. A warning for what?

This is a tough call - and based on splitting hairs.
1) what defines a "team"
2) V or JV?
3) Who's in control? Ref, Coach? Which coach?

The rule is blunt (Player shall not dunk or grasp during pregame or intermission.

I read in the spirt of the rule that warm-ups are a controlled, non-aggressive or non-spectacular period.

How can another "player" be allowed an exception?

No, usually I pretend that I had dust in my eye at the time of the dunk and then tell the offender to knock it off.

Seriously, if it's at halftime, I know who the team's players are. If it's pregame, the JV players are already in the locker room. If it's pregame of the JV game, then yes, I would go to the table if I had any doubt.

That's easy. Then I'd get the kid off the court and no T. If the kid is not on the team, then it's as if a fan came on the court and dunked. Get him off the court and no T.

Oops, forgot to ask: what if she is WRONG A1 starts the game?

What if a fan came on the court pregame & dunked the ball?

You just shoo him back into the stands? Maybe shake his hand first?

Well IMO when it happens is important. If a varsity player comes out with the JV team, dressed identically and goest through the 20 min. warmup then I, like you, would have to access a T. Why? B/c how am I suppose to know he is V. Is this going to happen. NO. Would it be possible for a V player to come out at halftime and shoot around with the JV. YES. If I could identify him as a V player then I wouldnt T. Otherwise I would until I found out otherwise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Is this going to happen. NO.

Famous last words.

It is classified as a Player Technical, but the rule explicitly states that it applies to all team members, not just players.


As I said earlier, it is not at all clear that the FED wants a technical foul called in this situation. IAABO has not issued an interp on this, as far as I know. And I know for sure that the MSBOA has not issued an interpretation of its own. There should be no such thing as a "board interp", if you're referring to BayStateRef's local association. Individual IAABO boards are not authorized to give interpretations that are contrary to the FED rules and/or state adoptions.

Because as BayStateRef pointed out in the original post, the Varsity player is not a "team member" of the JV team.

And how would that be different from any other rule that is applied during the game? ;) IOW, I don't give a rat's patootie about what the crowd thinks.

Even if you were instructed to do so by your Board interp...as the original poster was?

Oh well. Guess he got away with one. If you're really dying to throw the T, you probably still could, since the game hasn't started yet.

Yup, shoo him back into the stands. Then let game management know what he did. I wouldn't shake his hand.

Well, sure, if the interpreter was incorrect.

The rule covers team members, not players that are not at all associated with the team. By rule you have a player that is not even listed in the book dunking. The rules do not cover that kind of situation. Until the rules cover that situation, it is up to the Referee to decide what to do.

They want a T for players associated with the team. Are you going to give a T for some kid coming out of the stands dunking that is in street clothes? You need to go review the rule on this.

As I stated, you need to go review the rule. The rule does not say you give a T for individuals not associated with the team.

Who cares what the fans think? I know I sure as hell do not. Fans think to call a player-control foul the defender must have their feet in concrete, so why would I worry if the fans do not know the rules.

Peace

lets
 

T em all up -- let the over judicious reich take control and run a T up for everyone they "think" should get one.

this is funny -- varsity player dunks during JV half time (when the rule says players cant dunk during warmups and halftime of their game) -- what if you are driving by and see this same varsity player dunk on an outdoor court -- are you going to get out of you car and assess a technical foul on him then drive to his school and tell his coach his next game his opponent will start off with 2 free throws and the ball because you saw his player dunking during a street game warmup?

absurd isnt it...

Well, I'm not dying to do anything, least of all T some stupid kid for showing off.

Anyways...if a fan dunks at pregame you'll notify game management because he's obviously not affiliated with either team. I agree.

But wait! You're gonna let the varsity kid off without a T because he's not affiliated with either team...so you're gonna rat the varsity player out to game management?

(Persnickety, nice word ;) )

I'm gonna T the player...then I T the coach twice and toss him...then I T the Varsity coach sitting in the stands...then I toss the scorekeeper and clock operator...then I go down and start a fistfight with one of my partners (the smallest one preferably)...then I - wait, err...sorry. Guess I'm still just grumpy about Sunday.

If the "powers that be" tell me to handle it with the T's, then that's how it should be handled...otherwise, walk down there and get his a$$ off the court and then go have a chat with the coaches - he'll be running a little extra in practice the next day! :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops Quote: Originally posted by Dan_ref Is this going to happen. NO. Famous last words.

Dan, just give the T. It's one of those situations where you wouldnt catch any flack for giving a T or not. I prefer not to give unnecessary T's. I feel that this one could be avoided. You, on the other hand, may like the T and in this situation the T could be justified.

I rarely get to visit the boards much anymore, but when I saw the thread title I knew it was going to be a good one! :)

Come on - that is the worst possible interpretation! You give a technical for a player dunking at halftime. Then you find out he is not a player - so, by rule, you really can't issue the T. The solution? Add him to the book!! Oh yeah, then issue a book technical for that!! Let's start the 2nd half with 4 free throws and let's seatbelt the coach, since it's an indirect against him!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry! :)

Use some common sense here... If the player is on the JV squad (i.e. is ALREADY in the book), give him the tech - otherwise just get him off of the court and move on with the game.

I spoke with the interpreter to discuss his reasoning. (Chuck...the interp. is John Karo of Board 54. He said this first came up in S.E. Mass. and was brought to his attention by Lefty Duval, interp. for Board 30. John said it has not been vetted by IAABO’s Peter Webb or by the MSBOA.)

He is backing his interpretation on the definition of “team member” to include any person in uniform and taking part in the team’s lay-up line or shoot around. He said that as officials we have no way to know if a varsity player (or any other player), who is in uniform, is part of the team or not. Perhaps the varsity coach wants this player to play with the JV for one half and is willing to accept the administrative T for adding him to the book at halftime.

He said if he is not part of the team, then he should not be on the court at halftime with the rest of the JV. If he is there and he dunks, then he has to be assessed a technical since he “clearly” is a “team member.”

While I am still troubled by this interpretation, I understand the reasoning: why else would a player, in uniform, be with the rest of the JV team if he is not a “team member.” It is up to the coach (JV or Varsity) to keep this kid off the court if he is not part of the team.

He's wrong.

Says who?

I say assess both technicals. It will teach the kid not to be a bonehead. The coach needs to control this stuff. If you let him off with a verbal warning it doesn't carry as much weight as the T. I agree with the interp that if the player is in a uniform, they are part of the team. Around some of the smaller schools, you might have a player that plays some in the JV game and some in the Varsity and that player may have a different uniform. To me, if they are on the floor, in a uniform, they better be in the book. Otherwise, stick to warm ups before their game.

Gee Rut...now you have me really confused. ;)

Like I said, just like players and coaches are different, so are officials. I see no reason to T in this situation b/c I feel it could be handled w/out a T. Some would rather T and let it be done. I personally dont know why you would, except for the fact that you dont want to find out if this new face (V player) is on the V team or JV team. To me, the T is the easy way out.

I think now I remember why I don't visit the forums that much. :)

Use common sense - it's easy to determine if the player is on the JV team... He's either listed in the book or he isn't.

Do whatever your assignor/interpreter tells you to do - they are the ones that assign your games - but I am just amazed that he can interpret the rules this way.

Your kidding...right?

Just shooing the kid off the floor seems easier to me then;

Issuing a T, logging it in the book, advising the Coach of the seatbelt rule, shooting the FT's, administering the ball at midcourt, making sure the AP arrow is correct, and worst of all...buying the brewskys for the crew, after the game, for the BS you created by not just shooing the player off the floor. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by Nate1224hoops Quote: Originally posted by Dan_ref Is this going to happen. NO. Famous last words. Dan, just give the T. It's one of those situations where you wouldnt catch any flack for giving a T or not. I prefer not to give unnecessary T's. I feel that this one could be avoided. You, on the other hand, may like the T and in this situation the T could be justified.

Nate, I don't like the T in this situation.

Just fanning the flames a bit.

But something I've learned is to never say that something can not happen during a basketball game.

If it can happen it will at the worst possible time.

:)

To me the right and hard thing to do would be to find out which team this unknown player actually plays for (V or JV). Check the books to make sure. Then if he is on the JV, access the T. If not, pull him off the court explain the implications to him. Let his coach as well as the JV coach know what he did and go from there. Why punish the JV PLAYERS/TEAM for something they didnt do....sporting???

When I decide whether or not to assess a T, I make an extrememly quick decision, will the call make the game better? Using this question, my decision on this is an easy one.

Of course you would be. The rules allow for a "team member" to be penalized dunking during warm-ups. This is not a "team member." He is not listed in the book or associated with the team that is in the locker room at half time. If you give a T for this, you are not following any rule on this, you are making it up. You can do that to some extent because the rules allow the Referee to rule on things not specifically covered in the rulebook (this situation is not covered anywhere that I have seen). I just think that would be wrong and not good common sense officiating. You also said to put the player in the book and where do the rules say to do that (which is why you need to review the rules on this)? As someone said you would have to give a T for putting a player in the book that was not listed before the 10 minute mark before game time.

Using your application would be over-officious if you ask me.

Peace

I think Chuck Elias is 100% correct. Granted, if you call the "T" maybe you save the kid from doing something really dumb at Tourney time but.....if you handle it with some restraint, you can teach the lesson and not detract from the atmosphere of the current contest. Nothing looks worse than the starting a 1/2 off with a "T" for something administrative. It poisons the second half.

Chuck - "Go Durfee"!

JCrow - "Go New Bedford"

If I really liked the dunk, if the kid showed me something, I would first ask for what AAU team he played in the off-season. If I wanted to recruit him, no T.

Not.

Ok, I know Lefty and have met John. There is an interpreter's conference call this weekend with Peter Webb. Maybe one of them will bring this topic up for discussion.

I guess this is what I disagree with. If he's in the book, he's a team member. Otherwise, he's not. If he's in the book, whack him. If not, get him off the court. But I wouldn't T in that case. And for darn sure, I wouldn't T and then add to the book with a second T.

Hopefully, we'll get some kind of resolution to this over the weekend.

I'm in Western MA, but if you're talking about Fall River, my dad graduated from Durfee (sometime in the 1830's, I think). :)

also....
 

...not that my 2 cents are worth a crap what if you add that player into the book and hes a senior?

wouldnt this mean a forfeit for the JV team? using an ineligable player -- also some states have participation rules if players are in the book for jv and var...

this seems like a bees nest that shouldnt be messed with -- but a forfeit will save you from working a second half -- still get paid so I say do it T em up and add his name to the book and hope hes not a senior because now you would have to be the first ref ever that would need a police escort out of a JV game...

Re: also....
 

Since this is clearly a thread that has veered off into madness - that includes everyone! - what about your blanket assertion "the first ref ever that would need a police escort out of a JV game..."

Anyone ever need a police escort to get out of a JV game?

I sent Peter an email with this situation, so he will be aware of it. I will let you know if I hear from him before your call.

Re: Re: also....
 

Don't know that I needed one, but I was given one once. Soph boys game that ended with a nasty scrum started by a visitor. Visitor player earned 2 flagrant Ts, 2 home players each earned a flagrant T. Game mgmnt provided a couple of off-duty cops to walk us to the vehicles. Probably overkill, but given the tension with the home coach, I was glad for it at the time.

ive heard
 

of it happening in some varsity games where game management escorts the ref to their room and wait to take them to their car

That's awesome. I would appreciate whatever info you get.

I also sent an email regarding the question of whether you can run the endline after a double foul. I'll post that answer if I get one.

To take JV/V out of the question
 

This would be really bizarre, but lets say a manager does it.

If you say a Varsity player is a member of the JV team (in my mind he is, because they normally practice together). There seems to be confusion on that.

So what say you about the manager (hypothetical of course, I was a manager and if I could dunk I would have played!)

And just how is a VARSITY player "eligible to become a player" on the JV team?

Re: Re: also....
 

Shoot, I needed a police escort from a MIDDLE SCHOOL game once when I lived in Tennessee.

I sent an e mail to the interpreter of Board 27 to see what he thinks this should be handled.

I have had a school administrator excort me out after the police escorted a fan out. Fan was yelling at me after I showered about a JV game in which my partner threw 3 T's on the home team, of which I think all 3 could have been prevented. The fan didn't get to see the varsity game.

"a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player." 4-34-2 says bench personnel are "all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s)."

Our board interpreter said it should be a T for the dunk and the official should have the scorer add the varsity player to the score book.


Good stuff here. I'm with deecee and canuckrefguy.

My 3 cents:

Manger dunking: A manager who is not "in uniform" does not meet the definition of a "player" - "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player."

Varsity player: The officials are not responsible for determining eligibility anywhere I've worked, and I would assume that's the case across the country in NFHS games - and IMO, they SHOULD not do so. That responsibility falls onto the team's school administration and coach, I believe. Following the different jersey/warm-up logic, he's not a member of the JF squad. --

Eligibility, cont'd.: "Our board interpreter said ... the official should have the scorer add the varsity player to the score book." I would never instruct the scorer to ADD anyone to the book, and I'd be surprised if there is any remotely-specific lanquage that would support doing so in an NFHS publication. What if the varsity player had already played that night somewhere else? You are then FORCING the JV team to add an ineligible player. Also, I'm guessing all state associations have eligibility rules regarding senior V players participating in lower contests, regardless of the number of quarters they play per day. Long story short (too late): this person is not eligible, and does not meet the definition of a "player."

Fun things. I'm done.


[Edited by HawkeyeCubP on Feb 8th, 2006 at 04:05 PM]

In most areas I'm aware of, adding a player isn't going to affect his eligibility unless he actually plays. It's generally defined by quarters played. Playing time is restricted by quarters played. So, adding him to the book in this case isn't going to affect that. And if he's ineligible for whatever reason, the team won't have to forfeit the game unless he actually enters the game. Having him in the book means nothing in that regard.

Also I'd be surprised if even most states have a rule about seniors participating at the JV level. That's what the quarter restrictions are for. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of states went beyond the quarter limits.

I'm not stating either way whether this should be done, only pointing out that eligibility really isn't an issue.

[Edited by Snaqwells on Feb 8th, 2006 at 10:05 PM]

Let me add one question to the whole debate.

What's the penalty if a coach dunks during warm-ups?

snaquells
 

however he might not get in and play but you are assessing him a technical which would count towards something -- for one it would show up in the box score and what if you give him a tech and he says to you "that's @#$# bull@#$@# why are you being an a$$"

now what?

another T and an ejection for someone who isnt on the team - how did this thread get here? seems absurd to me looks like some are just fishing to be overly judicious in their responsibility. I hate to say this but I have worked with some refs that I just wish they had blinders on.

If the manager dunks, go get the coach and tell him to get the kid a uniform.

I haven't read through this ENTIRE post, but I have read most of it.

If you don't T the varsity guy, and the 6'4" guy on the other JV team sees him do that, he may think it's ok for him to do it. Are you going to T him, but just ask the V player to leave the floor?

Just something to think about. Common sense!

WARDZY

Lah me, 5 freaking pages and nobody cites the rules:

NFHS rule 10-3-4 says that the rule applies to all "team members".

NFHS rule 4-34-4 says that a "team member" is "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player".

Is the varsity player a "team member"? Nope, unless he's wearing a jv uni, he's listed on the jv roster, and he's eligible to play in that game. If he passes <b>all</b> of those criteria, nail him. If not, just shoo him off the floor and get the AD to keep him off.

A better question might be---- Is it a "T" if a coach or manager dunks in pre-game?.....a strict reading of the rules sez "no" imo. They're "bench personnel" as per R4-34-2, but they aren't "team members" as defined in R4-34-4.

Of course, if a coach/manager dunked, I'd call it an unsporting act under general principles and nail the coach/manager anyway. That's the spirit and intent of that rule as far as I'm concerned.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 10th, 2006 at 10:06 AM]

So you WOULD T a non "team member" for a dunk in pre-game warm-ups.

I think that is what the debate/question is here...you have a non "team member" dunking in warm-ups. Who is ultimately in control of what goes on during the warm-up period. The Coach maybe? Is it unsporting to have "people", (players, managers, coaches, team members, mascots, fans) out there in the lay-up lines and dunking? Who's in charge?

Is the official in charge of keeping only team members in the lay-up line...or is the official in charge of administering penalties to those breaking the rules in the lay-up line...or both?

My philosophy of game management would probably be to shoo the non team members away...but, it is an interesting discussion since we have an official who says he has been instructed by his board interp to issue at least one T to the bench/coach...so if that is what his board interp wants, who am I to say they are wrong.

Well, actually I <b>would</b> T a member of that team's bench personnel, as defined in rule 4-34-2--"Bench personnel are all individuals who are <b>part of or affiliated with a team</b>,including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statisticians."

2) A varsity player coming out of the stands is not only <b>not</b> a "team member"(4-34-4),he is also <b>not</b> a part of the "bench personnel"(4-34-2) either. You don't have to be a "team member" to be part of a team's "bench personnel", Dude. They're just different sub-groups of the same team. Iow, that varsity player does not meet the definition of anyone who is officially part of the jv team, according to rule 4-34. Ergo, treat him the same as a fan coming on the floor.

Fair enough...and I realized the two sub-groups you were talking about JR...I just think it's fun to beat a dead horse once in awhile. ;)

Now, to further beat this dead equine...
at what point does the coach, in your opinion, have accoutability/responsability for people running around dunking during his warm-ups? (Assuming he is allowing this Varsity player to participate in the warm-ups)

at what point does the coach, in your opinion, have accoutability/responsability for people running around dunking during his warm-ups? (Assuming he is allowing this Varsity player to participate in the warm-ups) [/B][/QUOTE]Crowd responsibility lies with home or game management. If there isn't a representative of home or game management there, then the home coach becomes home management too. That's why it's always a good idea imo to find out asap at the beginning of a game who game management will be that night, so you can easily find them if you need them.

Iow, if the coach is also home/game management, then it's up to him to get the idjits off the court during pre-game warm-ups.

If anybody cares, this ain't my opinion either. The pertinent rules citations are R2-8-1NOTE and casebook play 2.8.1COMMENT.

...and... RookieDude knew this one all along too....he ain't a rookie and he knows how to teach. :)

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 10th, 2006 at 09:00 PM]

The player is on the varsity, and the officials know this (otherwise the thread would have a different title). For those who still think this should be a technical foul, why would the JV be assessed, instead of the V?

IMHO, this is a game management issue. This is an unauthorized person on the court. Have him removed from the gym.

I hope you mean removed from the court. Why from the gym? Would you then bar him from re-entering for the Varsity game? Holy cow, he didn't kill anybody. He's being a clown. Ask the coach to get him off the floor and keep him off the floor. This thread is getting more ridiculous the longer it goes.

If you ejected a fan, would you still let them sit in the stands?

Fwiw, I'd do exactly what Jim suggested too. That varsity player is just another fan who came out on the floor and interfered with the game. He should be outa the gym for the duration of that game, the same as you would do for any other fan. If you don't, you legitimize the act. I could care less if his coach let him participate in the varsity game after that; there's a report going in anyway on it. The idea is to have a little deterrance go along the act, instead of not doing anything - which is exactly what letting him sit in the stands is imo.

Another Thought
 

I will assume (I know what happens), that the V game was later. Couldn't this dunk have been deemed a dunk during the Varsity Warm-ups and assess the T for that game?

Realistically, I have seen a number of varsity players warmup (usually somewhat unsupervised) at half-time. Is there a formal warm-up time for the Varsity to warm-up? (ie 10 minutes prior..)

Just a rec coach trying to learn.

Re: Another Thought
 

1) Only if you also think that it's OK to "T" up a varsity coach during his game for a remark that he mighta made while sitting in the stands during the jv game. Hmmmmm, that's not a bad idea, come to think of it. :D
The dunk happened during the jv game, not the varsity game. We can't penalize a varsity player for something that didn't happen during his pre-game warm-up or game. We don't have the jurisdiction to do that.

2) The official's jurisdiction over the varsity players starts when we come out on the floor for their game- which is usually 15 minutes before their tip-off. Our jurisdiction ends when all of the officials have left the visual confines of the court after their game ended. Anything that happens related to the varsity players before or after the officials' jurisdiction period really isn't of any concern of the officials. It just ain't our problem.

As a JV official that just passed my Varsity Certification last night, I am having a hard time with this. I have asked a bunch of different referees and have yet to get a solid answer. Everyone's interpretation is his own.

Personally, I would T the player as bench personnel and therefore indirectly get the coach. If nothing else, he's wearing a seatbelt the rest of the night and that's not a bad thing in and of itself. Plus, IMHO, he deserves it for having a lack of control over what's going on with his team during his game.

The definition of Bench personnel includes the disclaimer "is not limited to" which to me spreads a large blanket to cover anything unusual. If the V kid is warrming up with the JV, he is at minimum, part of bench personnel as far as I can see.

However, the rules interpreter saying to add him into the JV book and wack the coach again, seems heavy handed. Even if a coach is the victim. :D

lol
 

I would love to see an official do that -- if you are my partner and i tell you what i think about this and you still whack the kid then put him in the book and whack again for not being in the book -- im sorry but you just hung yourself out to dry IMO.

I would never back my partner up in this (i wouldnt say anything against him) but i would address all coaches, admin, what not his direction and let the whole flame hit him. pretty much i would distance myself real quick. The weird thing is I have backed up partners who have had the rules wrong on several occasions but this is going overboard -- T a kid as part of a team he is not, then another T because he wasnt in the book, then guaranteed another T on the coach because by now any coach would want to strangle any official for this (if i was a ref I would be a man and let the coach stangle me), then eject the coach, then if there is no assistant coach forfeit the game, then I guarantee youd better run faster than The roardrunner out of that gym. And the whole time this will suck for me as your partner because I will be guilty by association.

Not to mention the kids who still wont have any clue wtf just happened -- but at least you got your game fee so enjoy it.

deecee--

Don't misconstrue. There's no way I would go the "not in the book" route. What surprised me as that an official interpreter said that was what should be done.:eek:

but if you do T him up
 

and hes not in the book now what?

you have to add him -- automatic administration T as well -- by rule

why not T up a fan who dunks?

Last Friday I did a boys JV game and was the R. At 11:00 I go check the book. Home team has 9 in the book, 10 on the floor. I go the JV Coach.

Me: Coach, we have a problem. You have nine in the book and ten on the floor.

Coach: Let me see ... Oh. The tenth is a varsity player.

Me: Coach, do you want to add him to your roster?

Coach: Why would I want to do that?

Me: Why is he out on the floor for the JV game?

Coach: We always have some varsity players that want to warm up early.

Me: Is he playing in your game?

Coach: No. I told you he is just warming up.

Me: Please pull him from the floor if he is not part of your team.

Coach: (grumble, grumble, grumble) (coach pulls kid off the floor).

I guess coaches don't realize they make our job harder when they allow stuff like this to go on.

i dont see what the deal is with him warming up
 

if anything hes taking away from the kids who need to play. as long as hes not doing anything wrong i dont think you can tell a coach what you did -- but then again im probably wrong

I've seen a couple of you, Chuck and Brad, use the logic that "if he's in the book, he's a team member, so whack him, but if he's not in the book, then warn and leave it alone."

That is flawed logic. Let's say it's the middle of the period and coach sends A33 to check in. Table notifies you that A33 is not in the book. Sure enough, he's not listed at all, even with a wrong number. How do you respond here? "Sorry coach, he's not in the book, so he's not a team member. Make him go sit in the stands now." ? I don't think so.

OK, I've read 4 pages and I'm starting to laugh at some of this $hit now. This is getting good, and I just can't pass this up.

Let's say that at halftime of the V game, there is a mascot slam dunk contest. Starter A2 from the home team dons the team's mascot suit, and that suit is dressed with a varsity uniform, the number on which just so happens to match the number of the player wearing the costume?

You gonna T 'em up for this too?

Sorry, just couldn't resist. :D

whistles
 

when coach tries and puts A33 in the game and hes not in either book (its not a minor admin error -- like the home team just didnt copy his number down) -- then hes allowed to play and once you beckon him in -- you assess a T to the home team.

you dont send him back to the bench -- a team can have 20 players warm up and 8 in the book and that is fine -- its only a problem if one of the other 12 enter the game then its a technical.

Wack the coach again? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a book T is a TEAM TECHNICAL, and NOT on the coach, direct OR indirect. So the only T on the coach in this situation that I see so far is the indirect when you charged the V player for dunking.

The only logic that is flawed is yours, W&S. You're using a very weak analogy. In other words, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the first case, if the kid is not in the book, you can draw the conclusion with reasonable certainty that the kid is not on the team. But in the second case, even if the kid is not in the book, you have to conclude that he is on the team, since the coach is sending him in to play.

Apples and oranges.

Besides, checking the book is only one way of many to find out if the kid is on the JV team during halftime.

Re: whistles
 

I understand that deecee. I was just kind of trying to fight absurdity with absurdity.

o well
 

then you win i guess

I love you all. And it was nice to see Brad make an appearance in this thread. I've missed him. It's a shame that he didn't take care of this thread before it got to this point, where I see this:

This is a long thread. Click here to review it.

every time I go to make a new post or reply on this thread.

If I may add some levity to the situation......if a player is to dunk during warmups/halftime....at least MAKE IT. ;)

Seriously now, I reffed a JV Boys several years ago. During halftime, one of the JV players (not varsity) tried to dunk. The kid was an athletic high jumper type so I think he was just trying to see if he could get high enough to dunk the ball rather than show off.

My partner didn't see it, but I did. After thinking about it for a second, I decided to assess the technical. THe JV coach was a little surprised I would T the kid for that. However, I figured it would be a good lesson.

But if he MISSED it, is it really a dunk?

Speak of the devil
 

we had a varsity player dunk at halftime of the JV game last night (the first thing I thought of was this post and that I believed this situation would never happen!). He wasnt in his uniform, but, we confirmed he was a varsity player. My partner and I decided if the opposing JV or Varsity coach complained we would T him up (both witnessed the event). We waited a few moments then approached the offending party's JV coach (who was in the locker room when he did it) and told him a varsity player dunked while he was away. We told him a technical could be assessed for the action and that he would get the seatbelt for the whole second half. We offered it as a warning and told him the next infraction would be a T. He called the varsity captain over and must have told him to relay the message to the offender. Happy but rattled coach (it was a 3 point game at halftime).

I just read this thread for the first time this morning; funny stuff.
What procedure do you guys use to T a player for dunking? Do you put the whistle in your mouth, put air in it and give a normal T? The first thing I do is find out what the players number is since most warm-ups (at least some of them) don't have numbers on them. Then, I go to the book and tell them what we are going to do. Finally, I go to the coach and tell them what we are going to do. At some point during this process I will find out that the kid isn't on the junior varsity team and I would tell him to get off the court.

If you give the player a T, does he have to stay on the bench since you've basically made him part of the team?

Why would someone care what the fans think about allowing a "player" to dunk? Do you care about what you think for the entire game?

It is also funny to see someone take an interpreter's word as the gospel but not someone else who could have just as much/more knowledge? Do these people go to interpreter school and they can't be wrong?

The T is the easy way out because it will be easier to explain/defend to everyone on the spot. Not hard to understand. Oh, and I have never logged a T in the book.

OK. I've just spent far too much of my lunch break reading this post - but here is my 0.2c

I can't see how you can possible T the V player for the dunk. He is not a member of the team. Likewise, instructing the bench to add him and then T'ing up the team for adding a player is ridiculous.

What happens if a fan from Team A comes out on the court at half-time, dressed in Team B's uniform and dunks? Do you assess Team B with two T's (one for the dunk, one to add a player)?

Lastly - who cares if players dunk at 1/2 time. I realise that the NFHS & NCAA have made this a rule, but it stinks. In FIBA it is a T to grab the ring in warm ups, but dunks are fine. Regardless the vast majority of refs give a warning (to both teams) the first time a player grabs the ring in a warm up.