Had a situation, A1 drives to the hoop and dishes off to A2... B1 anticipating contact from A1 flops to the floor (after multiple warnings to stop flopping). After hitting the floor, B1 turns to me and says What the F**K (referring presumably to the no call on the player control)... I immediatley WHACK him just as I realize A2 is a step away from a wide open layup.

Obviously the way it played out, there is no shot -- but for future reference, do you hold the whistle on the technical to allow the open basket to be made?

Yes, withold whistle similar to case play 10.4.1 Situation E.

Z

Would you:

Hold the whistle to allow the basket, T for upsporting behavoir for again flopping after you told him not to. Then T for the language.

?

Just asking.

Probably not...unless there was some new language that followed the first T.

I also wouldn't give a second T in that situation -- although I must say the kid was getting a T whether he opened his mouth or not for his continued flopping.

T 'em up for the language. No T for the "flop" - just give him a blocking foul. A T for a flop is a "no win" situation - it can only get you in trouble. I would prefer that they change this to a violation; that way more officials would call it when it occurs (just like the swinging of the elbows or leaving the court unauthorized).

Violation? On the defense? Make it an exeption and allow a personal foul without contact.

[Edited by Snaqwells on Feb 7th, 2006 at 07:26 PM]

Yea, I just got an email from the head of officials who agreed with the assessment to call the flopping as a block -- The question on that goes then, is there no delayed whistle on the block call?

>>Violation? On the defense? Make it an exeption and allow a personal foul.<<

Sure. It wouldn't be THAT difficult to do a delayed dead ball situation ala hockey (similar to defensive FT lane violations) where the violation is called if the offense doesn't score in that possession. Possession would be defined as a trip in the front court in team control. If TC is lost, call the violation. If the ball goes in the backcourt and Team A legally retrieves it (i.e. they threw an errant pass, Team B touched it but didn't control it, and A regained possession) delayed violation is waived.

On second thought, never mind. While this sounds good on first glance, you have all sorts of problems with fouls occuring on either team, or violations occuring on Team A. If Team B violates (slaps ball out of bounds, e.g.), there's no effect to the delayed violation.

just call the flop
 

a block if there is any minute contact -- and warn the kid next time that happens its a T

Re: just call the flop
 

I realize you have a lot on your mind, being a rocket scientist & all, but if you actually read the original post you'll see that a warning was issued.

Yes. Call it by the book and give the kid two Ts and a seat on the bench for the rest of the night.

I agree with calling the flop a T. If he's been specifically warned, it sounds on numerous occasions, you have to call the T. Its similar to talking to post player about pushing. You'll say, "don't push, don't push and if they continue, you hit them with a foul so they learn. Pop him with a T for flopping and he might get the message. I'd also call the other, any high school kid who is going to drop the F bomb on an official needs to be heading to the showers.

How do you feel about this?

Don't hit him with the T for the flop, and another T for the language.

Just a flagrant T for the language. The difference is two foul shots.

That would work as well. Either way, it sounds like this kid was interested in playing the game of basketball, he was doing his own thing. Getting him off the floor seems to be the best course of action.

T for flopping? NO
T for language? YES
Blocking foul on flopper? Its either a no call or a block.

If the player is going to take themself out of the play by laying on the ground and not being in a position to defend, let them. Defender is useless when laying on his back. A blocking foul or a no call in my opinion is the way to go.

If the kid flops out of enough plays when there is a no call, the coach will usually take the player out and refocus them. If the kid gets enough fouls called against him, he is coming out anyway.

[Edited by icallfouls on Feb 10th, 2006 at 04:04 PM]

Heys guys, one of last years POI's was a T for flopping, no warning necessary. This kid was supposedly warned several times.

I agree

T - for the flop
T - for the F word, (and that ain't Fishin')

Head to the showers young man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited by FishinRef on Feb 10th, 2006 at 04:22 PM]

Unfortunately, from a rules perspective, you can't do that.

According to the POE in last year's rule book, a flop is defined as a player <b>acting</b> as though he or she has been fouled when in actuality there has been <b>"no contact or incidental contact"</b>. That's why a flop is penalized under rule 10-3-7f- "<b>faking</b> being fouled".

The definition of a personal foul, as per rule 4-19-1, says that it "is a player foul which involves <b>illegal</b> contact with an opponent while the ball is live". Similarly, the definition of a block in rule 4-7-1 says that "blocking is <b>illegal personal contact</b>...". If there is "no contact or incidental contact", you cannot have a personal foul, whether that personal foul is also a block or not.

Ergo, the rules will <b>not</b> allow you to call a personal foul for blocking on a "flop". The only call that can possibly be made on a flop, by rule, is either a "T" or a no-call.

Iow, if you have illegal contact, you do <b>not</b> have a flop. On a play like this, you also judge whether that contact was illegal or not by using the other rules in the book, or by following the direction of case book plays like the one cited previously.

Never call anything that you can't explain or justify.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B]
Sure, sounds good, but who is Ergo? :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mplagrow
[B]
the quote containing ergo, was not mine, the credit goes to JR, maybe he knows ergo

Are you calling a T on this play?

Are you calling a T on this play?
[/B][/QUOTE]Going back to the original post that started this thread, if a player "flops" after receiving "multiple warnings" not to, then yup, I'd sureasheck call the "T". I probably wouldn't wait for any "multiple warnings" either; I personally don't believe in <b>repeatedly</b> warning somebody not to repeat the same act without doing something about it.

And I'd give the flopper the second bye-bye "T" for swearing also.

I would try to hold the whistle until the lay-up was good or not too, if possible.

If A2 is a step away, he's shooting and continuous motion allows that shot to count, regardless of when the whistle went off for the T for swearing. The rule says foul and does not specify contact.;)

Now if you are double dipping the flopper, then you need to hold that whistle until the shot is released.