The Nature and Limits of a Fumble

[assignmentmaker]

A digression in another thread turned to the subject of 'fumbling'. At the risk of playing the fool (oh well, it's only life), I come to the board seeking to clarify my understanding of fumbling in basketball. In the thread referred to, one of our esteemed moderators said:

"There's a difference between dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball).

Dropping and Passing are intentional acts -- recovering the ball is a dribble (assuming the ball hits the floor).

Fumbling the ball is an Accidental act -- recovering the ball is always legal."

But Fed 4-21 defines a fumble as: " . . . accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp." The rule includes 'drops', and that has always puzzled and concerned me.

Consider this situation: A1, holding the ball and having not dribbled, is being closely guarded by B1. Leaning to avoid the pressure, A1 unintentionally drops the ball on the floor and immediately picks it up. Has A1 fumbled or dribbled? Under 4-21, this could be a fumble, could it not? But that would be to penalize the defense, protect the offense from its own poor play.

I have an alternative definition to propose: a fumble is accidental failure to attain player control of the ball when receiving a pass or maintain player control when ending a dribble.

Are there other circumstances you would term a fumble?

I'm going to put on my protective headgear now. (I know, illegal equipment . . .)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
A digression in another thread turned to the subject of 'fumbling'. At the risk of playing the fool (oh well, it's only life), I come to the board seeking to clarify my understanding of fumbling in basketball. In the thread referred to, one of our esteemed moderators said:

"There's a difference between dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball).

Dropping and Passing are intentional acts -- recovering the ball is a dribble (assuming the ball hits the floor).

Fumbling the ball is an Accidental act -- recovering the ball is always legal."

But Fed 4-21 defines a fumble as: " . . . accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp." The rule includes 'drops', and that has always puzzled and concerned me.

Consider this situation: A1, holding the ball and having not dribbled, is being closely guarded by B1. Leaning to avoid the pressure, A1 unintentionally drops the ball on the floor and immediately picks it up. Has A1 fumbled or dribbled? Under 4-21, this could be a fumble, could it not? But that would be to penalize the defense, protect the offense from its own poor play.

I have an alternative definition to propose: a fumble is accidental failure to attain player control of the ball when receiving a pass or maintain player control when ending a dribble.

Are there other circumstances you would term a fumble?

I'm going to put on my protective headgear now. (I know, illegal equipment . . .)

In my post on the other thread, I should have said, "There's a difference between intentionally dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball)."

[assignmentmaker]

Bob, anyone . . . are there circumstances which are fumbles other than accidental failure to attain player control of the ball when receiving a pass or maintain player control when ending a dribble?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Bob, anyone . . . are there circumstances which are fumbles other than accidental failure to attain player control of the ball when receiving a pass or maintain player control when ending a dribble?

Yes.

Here are some examples (not all that likely to occur but you asked if there could be a way).

Player securely holding the ball. Player fakes a pass...fakes the throw and pulls it back such that it slips out of his hands behind his head.

Player in a very low crouch tries to pull the ball from one side of his body to the other and bangs his elbow on his knee. Ball pops out.

Player tries to hold ball in one hand over his head and away from the defender. Player, having sweaty hands, looses control of ball and it slips away to the floor.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Yes.

Here are some examples (not all that likely to occur but you asked if there could be a way).

Player securely holding the ball. Player fakes a pass...fakes the throw and pulls it back such that it slips out of his hands behind his head.

Player in a very low crouch tries to pull the ball from one side of his body to the other and bangs his elbow on his knee. Ball pops out.

Player tries to hold ball in one hand over his head and away from the defender. Player, having sweaty hands, looses control of ball and it slips away to the floor.

Thanks. I think these are good examples, although the rationale behind them is not apparent to me. It is as though the offense is being given an extraordinary get-out-of-mistake-free card. Does anyone know anything about the origin of the 'fumble' rule. It wasn't in the original 13, apparently!

[Oz Referee]

Keep in mind that it is up to the judgement of the referee as to whether the player fumbled the ball or is looking for a "get out of jail free" option.

[crazy voyager]

Speaking that, this is what happened to me when I was playing a few games ago

I got a break away, but the balls slippery and on the way up for the lay-up I loses it, it slips upwards a decimeter or so before I manages to catch the ball again, land with it, take a bounce and jump stop.

I deamed this legal, so did apperently the officials, but still, I wouldn't get mad at an official for calling either travelling or double dribble on that.

I think the officials did it right? Do you? Remember that I managed to catch the ball on my way down, so it never touched anything (floor, back board, net, anything) before I got it back and landed with it

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by crazy voyager
I got a break away, but the balls slippery and on the way up for the lay-up I loses it, it slips upwards a decimeter or so before I manages to catch the ball again, land with it, take a bounce and jump stop.

I read this as:

1) Dribble
2) End dribble
3) Begin motion associated with try
4) Fumble
5) Recover fumble
6) Land
7) Dribble
8) End dribble with "jump stop"

If that's correct, then it's all legal up to point 7 -- and it's now a "double dribble" (or "ilelgal dribble") violation.

[crazy voyager]

intresting, I thought it felt weird doign that but I got away with it anyway so

tx for the answer bob (always hard to know if you did it right when you're thinking as a player and not a ref)

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by crazy voyager
I think the officials did it right? Do you? Remember that I managed to catch the ball on my way down, so it never touched anything (floor, back board, net, anything) before I got it back and landed with it

They must have seen you play before, and considered this a rebound of a missed shot.