I am a coach who is always reevaluating my philosophy on interacting with officials during games and I would like input from thoughtful refs. When I got back into coaching a couple of years ago after a long layoff, I decided that I was going to put all of my game energy into coaching the bench and was not going to say anything to officials during the games (except when necessary for a clarification or conference, etc).

Without going into too much detail, my biased but considered opinion is that by the end of my first game back I really did my team a disservice and allowed the opposing coach to clearly gain an edge in terms of how the game was officiated (by a relatively young crew) in this case. After that game, I decided that I couldn't just say nothing and needed another plan.

In our league, we mostly use a particular organization and I found myself working for more calls (with self-imposed limits that I can go into if anyone is interested), with mixed results - never really feeling good about this but at least feeling like everything was evening-out in the end. Anyway, I kept hammering away the same way every game until our tournament when officials from a different organization were brought in. At the end of the first quarter, one of the officials came over and pointed out that a call I was demanding on our opponent was really going to hurt my team and our style if he started to mete it out how I wanted it it at both ends. The only other thing I said to officials all night was a quip to the same ref as he ran by and it ended up being a tournament win for us.

Since then I am much more selective about the types of calls being made and the crew before I open my mouth. My question is - is the pressure/chatter from coaches a necessary evil in this equation? I'm sure there must be some temptation to just mandate that they all sit down and shut-up except to coach the kids. But there must also be times where a coach says something that rings true to you and might legimately influence the flow of the game and the calls, or even just one call or situation.

I am sure you have seen colleagues who are more vulnerable to an angry or smooth-talking coach than others. I have run across one official who gave a T to a coach who asked for a clarification on the type of contact involved in a foul - thankfully it wasn't me. How much a part of the game is the coach's interaction with officials and is it OK that it is any part of the game? Is it a positive factor as long as you can control them well?

I view coach's behavior and comments as them being advocates for their team.

When I hear a stinging remark from a coach I ask myself "is the commnet an opinion, an observation, a valuable contribution"? and then I move on.

If the comment is an insult, a hint of bias or demeaning, then my attention turns to the coach's behavior and not the matter of rules communications.

If a coach is gonna get "nasty" I CANNOT listen objectivly to their possibly legitimate questions or comments. I start blocking them out.

I'll also add the absolute HARDEST call to make is one the coach is pining for loud enough for the fans, other team and my partner to hear. Makes the offical look a puppet.

Finally, I belive coach's underestimate the view a referee has. We travel up and down the floor inch's from the teams and have a really good sense of who's, pushing, pulling, loose, quick, polished, talented, hot, intimidated, out-manned, etc. A coach has no way of knowing what I am seeing - but they know what THEY want me to see.

Thanks for working with our kids. Hope this is valuable to you.

I was approached by the new high school varsity coach with just your question. She was a championship D3 college player, plenty competitive, but she is - all to her and her parents' credit I would say - a well-mannered and polite adult. She felt that opposing coaches were gaining an advantage, that the squeaky wheel was inevitably getting some grease (if it didn't crash and burn first, to melange the metaphor).

At the time I told her I thought she should hold to her personal style, that officials would be appreciative of her behavior and be sure not to let another coach's more demonstrative behavior create any edge. After some reflection, though, I felt differently. But what could she do?

Last night I had a specific example of how a coach can be assertive without being out-of-line. The (ultimately) winning coach only said a few things to me in the course of the game. One was to ask me to keep an eye on the other team interfering with the ball after a made basket. I told him I thought the opponents had reflexively pushed the ball towards the endline, and, in the little gym we were in, it had bounced off the wall before his team got to it. He agreed that nothing flagrant had happened, but, he said, his team depended on fastbreaking, so, if I would keep an eye on it . . . he sensitized me to an element of the game of particular importance to his team. Not a bad move.

It's always a very uncomfortable moment for me too when I hear the whistle after I pine for a call I think I'm not going to get. You'd think I'd be happy but I usually want to crawl into a hole. If I'm standing, I make sure I sit in a hurry. I immediately yell some coaching instructions at least as loud as I just yelled, "WALK!" :)

bebanovich,

I bet you're coaching little kids (not nearly ready to shave).

If that's true then leave the officials alone, coach your team. Let your oppoent scream his fool head off.

Working the refs at this level is not your objective.

Nope. I am coaching some of the hardest-a$$ high school kids you have ever seen. They are shaving and they will shave you too if you are not careful. :)

I doubt it.

This has to be a "hard a$$" rec league, right?

I mean, no real league would hire refs who would let coaches work them like you claim you can.

No sir. Whatever it is you're thinking, why not come out and say it? Do you think my question is intended to be insulting so you are questioning my credibility? Do you think that I am too stupid or naive to be a high school coach? Or that a real, competitive high school coach wouldn't think twice about ripping some ref's a$$? Just say it so we don't have to go back and forth for 15 posts.

I don't think it's possible for anyone to be too stupid to be a HS coach, so I guess you're not either. That goes for "competetive" coaches also.

As for you being tough enough to rip a ref's a$$, maybe you need to run into a real ref to settle your "competetive" self down a bit. Apparently the guys in your area back down too easily. Lucky you.

In any event, if you think working the refs is the way to win games then knock yourself out, Mr "competetive" coach.

Just don't come back here complaining when you find yourself escorted from the gym one fine day...if the guys in your area find the balls to run you.

Coach, I will say this: any coach that is trying to work me will eventually get tuned out. Then, when you need a timeout or have something (for real) to talk to me about, it's going to take extra effort on your part because I'm used to ignoring you.

IMO, when a coach spends alot of time on the officials, you will notice your players spending alot of time on the officials. If the other team is focused on playing basketball, that's to their advantage. I do think that if you pick your spots, we could have a great game.

Something we all need to remember is that coaches are watching the game with their heart while the officials are watching the game with their eyes.

I guess I am WAY out of line here, but I thought, from the flavor of the posts, that the Coach was asking for some legitimate feedback on how to INTERACT with the refs, and not WORK them....the squeaky wheel (unfortunately) often gets the grease, and I believe he was looking for valid input on how far his interaction with the refs could go before he was crossing the line....I am too new to have my opinion really count, or deter comments like those made by senior refs, but the coach posted here in good faith....let's respond in the same manner.....

In my last post I was actually wondering out loud if you were questioning my credentials because I DO NOT present myself as a win-at-all-costs coach and DO NOT set out to rip any ref's a$$. So I see that you are just reacting emotionally to the premise of my question and I will borrow the sage advise of many thoughtful officials I have seen on this board about handling an overly emotional individual . . .

. . .I hear you ref.

Why are you out of line?

Mr competetive coach essentially wants to know if being a pain in the @ss will help his team win.

The answer is no, assuming he coaches above some level where he sees competent, confident officials.

Good.

You're not hopeless.

My goal is not to push my interactions with officials to the edge. I don't get 'T's and don't want them. I do see them in our league so I know most officials are not afraid to call them. My goal is to not get out-greased by another squeaky wheel.

Here are my guidelines for interacting with officials.

- players never argue / question calls
(captains can request that officials watch for a particular violation “#24 is grabbing #3's shirt on cuts if you can take a look” but they have been coached how to do it with respect) any other players saying anything else means we all run suicides the next day in practice. My players are not perfect but they do police each other on this.

- Comments can never be personal or ever question the overall ability or integrity of the official. Question a call or series of calls but never suggest an intentional bias or general incompetence. If I really think an official is incompetent or biased I will request they don't officiate our games anymore. This hasn't happened.

- I don't argue for calls against the other team that I don't want to see called in abundance against my team. My team pressures like crazy in the open court and light body contact and wrist contact will not ever end up helping us if every instance is called. When the other team does it I bite my tongue.

- If an official seems especially confident in a particular call that I argue, I usually say something like, “OK, gotcha. Thanks.” If he/she seems less confident, I turn up the heat a little and describe confidently what I saw and what I think they missed. In this case I will shake my head and say, “come on” or “your killing me” but I try to poke a little without being too disrepectful or showing anyone up.

- The worst I resort to is sarcasm. It's annoying, it makes the crowd laugh and it's impossible to rationally 'T.' Use sparringly.

- If I get a call I have been looking for (for whatever reason) I try to make a quiet quip to the official whenever possible to keep the energy light and winkingly acknowledge that it's all part of the game.

- I never swear (personally I think this should still be an automatic 'T' for high school coaches but maybe I'm a little old-fashioned).

- Never kick, slam, rattle or throw anything.

- The better an offical seems, not just at calling the game but at managing all players, coaches and bystanders, the more my interactions are quiet, positive and jovial.

- If an official is a hothead, let the other coach/players dig their own grave.

I think anyone out to give me a T is going to have a very hard time doing it without looking very irrational.

I do believe the the better and more experienced an official is, the less they respond to a squeaky wheel. However, I don't buy the premise that anyone is a violation-calling machine devoid of human emotion and fallibility anymore than officials here would believe that I objectively see the action on the floor in my own games. To some extent the squeaky wheel does get greased.

Officials in our area are far better than rec league but they haven't had a raise in over 15 years and there clearly is a broad range of experience and ability. Without reasonable pay, we have a mix of very committed, experienced officials and youngsters who are hard to retain for very long.

Coaches that yap all game cause headaches, but they don't get calls.

In fact, if you want to use the violation calling machine reference, the natural reaction to a pain in the rear is not to give them what they want.

Coaches that say very little and pick their spots, garner much more respect and get listened to and not just heard.

You want an officials advice, coach your team, don't worry about the officials, don't worry about what the other coach is doing, if you and your team are focused on playing, everything takes care of itself.

Want proof?

The howler monkey that gets a T, and then has to coach usually sees their team play better after the T. Of course the coach will see it as taking a T to motivate his team, which is BS. What it is, is refocusing on what you and your team is out there for, playing the game.

[Edited by blindzebra on Feb 5th, 2006 at 01:47 AM]

I've had games where both coaches never said a word to me. I've had games where both coaches were borderline out of control. And I've had games of everything in between.

There's no one here that can assure you that any one style will get you the desired results. If I'm working your game, I can assure you that the other coach's behavior isn't going to impact what I call. I'm much more concerned about the kids on the floor staying under control as I hope I can trust the coach to behave like an adult (at least moreso than his kids). What I mean by that is that if you aren't demonstrative or spouting clearly unsportsmanlike language, I'm pretty much going to ignore you other than the polite "OK" to respond to your comments and answer whatever questions I can and should.

What I would recommend you try is to think about what type of comment or question you can make or ask to the officials that isn't disrespectful, but does issue a concern that another coach "working them" while you are concentrating on coaching would give the other team an advantage. Don't bring it up pre-game, just when its necessary, say, at a time out. On the other hand, don't try to brown nose either. A comment like "I'm behaving myself" with nothing more insinuates that you expect to be rewarded for that. You have to make darn sure you don't appear to be whining, as that will get you a tune out quicker than just about anything.

I've had a coach this year tell me the work in his game was the best he's had (don't know if he meant this year or all time). He also stated that comments directed at us were based primarily on showing his kids that he was as into the game as they were. I think there are other ways to communicate to your kids than working the officials.

Being an attorney, I'm skilled at gathering information through questions. If I were a coach, I'd probably talk to the officials with questions more than comments. Direct, leading questions can be persuasive, and if you ask them politely and without disrespect, that might be a way to "work" the officials on your own terms. But make sure the questions are stupid. Like whining, they'll get tuned out fast.

If you run into an officials like me, I work so many places I do not give a damn what you complain about. At some point I will completely ignore you. It was said before the coaches that pick their spots might get my attention in a positive way if you are asking legitimate questions at proper times. If you keep complaining, I will ignore you than get rid of you if you choose not to stop. I will finish the game with you or without you. So you can play along or I will see you leaving the gym. Likely you will be around mainly because I just will not care about all the complaining. Officials like me make jokes afterwards about coaches like you. Then I will tell other officials about you and they will be aware of your crap and you might get a much shorter leach with the next guy. If I do not ever see you again it will not bother me at all. I probably passed 100 schools to work your game. So what difference does it make if you do not like the job I have been doing? You probably will not be at that school in a couple of years and I will not have to deal with you in the first place. ;)

Peace

Now THIS is something I can work on. Thanks Texas!

Yes, I believe I know what you mean.

That is exactly the recommendation I originally had for the quiet coach referenced in my earlier post on this thread. Then I told her no, forget it, because it seemed to me that to even say it was to insinuate that an official could possibly be successfully 'worked', not a flattering insinuation.

Maybe it can be done, with just the right language . . .

This is very good advice, and the vast majority of officials I know and work with would agree.

Perhaps it is these calls that make people think "working the ref" actually has an effect. I've had to make the calls right after the coach screams for it, and their reactions are sometimes like yours. "Oh, he is paying attention."
If you really think your refs respond well to being worked, then do what you think you must. However, I do not appreciate being coached.
As was already stated, when I sense a coach is coaching me, I'll tune him out and work the game. It's not fair to the kids to change the way I make calls on the basis of a completely biased observation from an obviously less advantageous position than mine.
Also, be aware of the fact that a lot of refs will call what are considered "ABS" T's. Accumulation of Bull Sh**. A comment from a coach who's been coaching his kids the entire game will generally earn a response from me. The same comment from a coach who's been coaching me all game could very well get the other team a couple of free throws and the ball.

An occasional comment, such as "can you watch the pushing on the boards?" is fine, IMO, from the head coach. But if you've been hollaring for traveling every time down the court (I've had coaches like this) or complaining about "ticky-tack" or "cheap" fouls all game, I guarantee I won't hear what you're trying to say when you want me to.

It's an adjustment some of us have to make to focus on the players.

Yeah, even the premise of the question seems to be drawing . . . um . . . mixed results. It seems to me there might be a couple of reasons why an official (and I'm not saying all officials) might be influenced.

1) Lack of certainty due to inexperience, situation or other factor that I'm not really the best source to guess.

2) Some feeling that the coach is correct in asking for a certain call or attention paid to a certain aspect of play.

A carefully phrased suggestion might help balance the equation in situation 1 but it seems that situation 2 would call for an equally persuasive campaign.

I would prefer not to say much of anything but I don't think this is realistic in all or even most cases. I also think I've given the impression that my definition of "working" means constant yapping and whining. Working means whatever seems most useful in any given situation.

If the official comes in the gym like a big mook wearing his dick on his sleeve determined to show me he is the big silverback gorilla, I'm not dumb enough to get into a pissing contest with him. My job is to teach kids to compete in a game I love and to look for an edge within the rules.

Coach, your job is to coach your players, trying to gain an edge is cheating, working an official does fall under rule 10-4-1-b Attempting to influence an official's decision.

That is a T.;)

Believe me, I would be happy if it were, in practice a T. I was sincere in starting this thread that I tried coaching only the bench and I got worked. I knew it, our few fans knew it, the players knew it. We can go 'round and 'round about how I can't influence calls and there are some crews where I know this is true (and I am all but silent) but by and large I don't believe it. And I don't think I'm a hothead. Sometimes it's, "please watch the grabbing underneath" and sometimes it's "you're calling us for every little touch on the perimeter and your letting them hammer us inside. you can't reward one style over another!"

I'm just trying to be honest and sincere posting here and I do think that officials who would spend time posting and reading message boards are probably of the caliber that would convince me to spend 100% of my time coaching my kids instead of 80 - 90%. But you have to admit, I've also spent more time thinking about this issue than your average coach and I do think that when I only coach my kids, I lose an edge. When there are strict limits on talking to the refs and T's are given to everyone, I will gladly shut up.

I'm a long time reader, first time poster...love this forum. I've called HS varsity (as well as JV, intermediate, and lots of rec leagues) and a few NCAA DIII games for the last 5 years in two different states.

Note: My following comments all deal with HS V/JV, not intermediate or rec leagues...those are a whole different ball of wax.

I don't mind coaches talking to me during games, even if they're somewhat agitated...they're doing the job they're hired/paid to do. Granted, it still amazes me that seemingly the majority of varsity HS coaches don't know or understand all the rules, but its not my responsibility to educate them. I will always answer questions (when I hear them) and almost always ignore comments, except to suggest to coaches when they need to scale back (usually works for me). Plus, I know when I'm being "worked" and ignore that. Knock on wood, but I've rarely had a coach lose control (my theory: good partners/good pre-games).

In our association we follow the simple logic of protect the ball, protect the shooter, talk to players off-ball (to nip potential problems in the bud), call the obvious, and not get distracted from the task at hand. Works well for me. I mostly ignore coaches regardless of what they're doing (whether its actually coaching, whining, howling, sitting placidly by, checking the talent in the stands, etc) because they're not my overriding concern...the play on the court is (it keeps my attention). I try to only deal with coaches when there is a need to.

A little off topic, but I've noticed that many refs on this board have a real problem with asst coaches, like they're sub-human or something. I don't get it. Granted, they have to remain seated and are dealt with summarily if they act beyond their role, but I regularly respond to asst coaches if they're in control and not being jerks (see first half of this sentence). In my experience the vast majority of asst coaches know their boundaries and stay within them (head coaches almost always assure this). Besides, treating them as though they're a part of the proceedings tends to make them somewhat of an ally because they're usually little more than an afterthought...make someone feel that their input is valid/important and they suddenly become a contributing part of the process. Not all respond in that way, but I'm continually surprised at how many do.

Gotta go...Steve Martin is on Saturday Night Live.

You have had several officials tell you it doesn't work.

Common sense should tell you that being a pest is not the best way to get what you want.

Yet you persist, it's very amusing.

You see all you are doing is looking for a way to beat the game and not play it. You perceive an advantage that is not there. Coaches and fans always see what they want to see, and rarely does that view match the reality of the actual situation.

That coach has been yelling for hand checks and they called a hand check, it must have worked. WELL MAYBE YOUR PLAYER HAND CHECKED!

Believe what you want, but come back and read the threads where we all have a good laugh at the expense of coaches who are howler monkeys.

I've had several officials actually read what I was posting and give thoughtful answers that helped me think about the issue. That's why I persist. A few have said that coaches who pick their moments and say, "please watch for x,y or z" might get their attention. If you actually read my quote that you pasted in your last post you would have noticed that was similar to one of the ways I define "working" an official - probably a poor choice of words in choosing a title for this thread.

I don't think I ever described behavior that was howler-monkeyesque - I think I have asked refs for calls (but not all game - jeez, I've got things to do) when I thought the crew was especially weak, inexperienced or indecisive.

It seems that one of two things is going on here: 1) a few are not reading my posts very carefully and are making judgments based on the situation, their feelings about coaches (or me in particular) and partial evidence (which would be poor officiating, would it not) 2) a few really want to be in a flame war with a coach and I'm not really playing along. If 2 is the case please let me know, I love a good roast and would be happy to oblige.

Maybe it's the area I work, but I'll tell you that there are officials that do my school's games that can be 'worked'. The coaches know who they are, and the games are a constant battle between who can influence the official to get what he wants. If I chose not to try to 'work' these officals, the calls would be heavily slanted in the other guys direction - I've seen it happen - in my games and other team's games.
That said - the majority of officials above rec ball can NOT be influenced by 'working' them, so I don't waste my time. Just like coaches have a gameplan for beating a particular opponent based on what was successful in the past, we typically have a gameplan for dealing with officials.
Coaches will do what it takes to win ballgames - that's what we get paid for. As long as that is done respectfully I don't see anything wrong with it.

Coach's: Question for you..... (and something I have no idea about)

How much attention do you pay to interaction between the OTHER coach and the referee's?

IMO:

As a guy who has played, coached and officiated....I thinking trying to "work" Refs is very counter-productive to winning. Granted, it might buy a call or two against less experienced refs but.....

It sends a BAD message to your Team. It tells them that the reason they are losing or are not winning by more is the Refs not their own play. It gives them an excuse to lose. It turns them into "victims" rather than athletes that can control their own destiny. It ruins the sirit of competition.

It is a bad life lesson and it trancends today's society because we teach it to our kids as they grow up. You think HS Coaches get paid for just "winning"? What a shallow viewpoint.

When a Coach tries to "work" me. He absolutely better be 110% right because if he's nailing me on 3 seconds during a series of offensive rebounds and turning the fans and kids into a mob of screaming whiners....I'm getting a big RESENTMENT.

Having coached more than officiated
 

If I understand the question, I read it to be: What is the best way for a coach to interact with refs. As refs, we enter games wondering what kind of temperment the coaches, players and fans will have that night. As players and coaches, they wonder/feel the same way about the refs (unless it is a ref they are familiar with...and I don't feel you should ref a team TOO MANY TIMES in a season): do these guys call a tight game, a loose game, etc. During the course of a game (and usually very early) we refs learn if a coach is going to try to WORK us. We also learn if a coach is willing to WORK WITH us. Coaches who treat the refs respectfully (notice, I didn't say agree with every call) and have taught their players to do the same thing (don't you feel that respectful players make our games MUCH easier, even if their coach crosses a line or two..) I feel are doing all they can with the refs to help their team win (in respect to the refs). I will say, a coach who isn't in my ear some, I have to wonder if they are even in the game! So, work with the refs, dont work them. Sure, ask questions about calls you wonder about, don't throw out rhetorical questions like, "You going to call them both ways, ref?" Comments like that imply we might be calling the game unfairly or unevenly. Every ref I know, their whistle is color blind. They only see the fouls and violations, not the color of the jersey's committing them. However, ride me like a cheap pony and my disposition may not be one of giving you the benefit on a close call.

Coach, I know you're job is tough. Mine is too. There are only two or three objective people in this gym, and I'm one of them. Addressing me politely will get you a lot further, if you feel the need to try and 'work' me. But don't expect a whole lot of results.

I've been doing this long enough that I trust my own eyes, my own rule knowledge and my ability to properly officiate a game. Will stuff get missed? Hell, yes! Goes with the territory. I'd rather miss something than make something up, which I know sometimes happens. Everyone in the gym has a better view of the play than we do, but we have the guts to be on the court and make the calls as best we can.

Trust me, I know there are some officials out there who are lemons. Word gets around and either those guys wash out or get real limited in what their schedule becomes.

Actually, I read them very well, including between the lines. You said yourself you are looking for an edge.

You want to cheat, I'm not going to help you do so.

Good coaches know that they don't need a short cut/edge, to win the game.

Summary of the thread so far
 

Coach comes to a basketball official's forum, wanting to know the best & safest way to work the officials at his games.

Coach is essentially told there is no best way, his best strategy is to coach his team for all the good reasons posted.

Coach admits he only really wants to work the newer, less experienced officials in his league and swears he would never consider going near officials who arrive "like a big mook wearing his dick on his sleeve determined to show me he is the big silverback gorilla".

Conclusion: Dealing with coaches is like dealing with a dog. Pack mentality is the key. Establish who's in control & they will be very happy to fall in line. But like a dog they are very good at perceiving a power vacuum and will immediately attempt to fill it. Further, if a coach views the opposing coach is getting more than he is or is barking louder than they are they are overwhelmed with the desire to bark themselves. Again, the solution is to make both coaches realize who, exactly, is in control to eliminate the petty jealousies that they are subject to.

Enjoy the superbowl.

This is a very good point and something that I deal with directly with my team. We practice what is in the rule book but it is the job of the players early on (with my help, of course) to adjust to how the game is being called. If the whistle blows, it's a violation, if it doesn't, it's not. Any whining at breaks is squashed early and doesn't go much beyond November.

In our last game, I had a player pick up 2 early fouls trying to steal the ball from a dribbler. When he came to the bench, he complained that on the second one, he hadn't touched the man. I explained that he was out of position and because he was reaching down toward the ball he was drawing the whistle. I reminded him that I wasn't going to protect him and he needed to move his feet.

He didn't work it out and he fouled out before halftime with his teammates pleading with him to move his damn feet and stop reaching. I complained on two of the calls that the official was out of position to see contact and that on the second one I thought he was calling a violation for bad defense and not actual contact - this got a smile.

I am very transparent with my kids about what I am doing and that we each have different responsibilities - they are very perceptive (even though they can't seem to stop reaching). By the way, I didn't feel like I was having much effect on the calls in this one so I tested the waters, read the crew, showed my player I had his back even after I put the burdern on him to clean it up and then I shut up. When we debriefed the game the next day and I asked why we lost, the kid who fouled out immediately offered, "we couldn't stop fouling."

I really screwed up this thread by using the term "worked" in the title. I agree that it's counter-productive to want every call or random calls. I will admit that I have fallen into this trap occasionally when overcome by emotion in a close game but not for long and not even to the point of getting a prolonged look from an official with whistle in mouth ready to slap me down.

Let me give a better example - and a common one for us last year - of what I would consider working an official. At least in our area, hand-checking and, to my biased eye, seemingly minor and incidental, open-floor contact became a point of emphasis last year. We would press and run like crazy and throw to our massive but not-too-tall center inside. He would get pushed in the back, hacked on the arm, grabbed by the shirt, have his feet stepped on and was hit across the face three times hard enough to draw blood with only one of the three called a foul.

I know that a solid, experienced official would fold a point of emphasis right into the rest of his/her game and, I've tried to be diplomatic and haven't called out any specific organization or even given details about my location but last year was not an up year for our officials.

Faced with this situation, early in the game when a legitimate handcheck was called, I would take the opportunity to tell my player that it's the right call and explain why it's the right call loudly enough for the official to hear. Then, if my big guy got hammered without a call, I might make some noise and I might not - depending on the crew. At the first break I would try to make my point that I support calling the handcheck but to do that without calling the same amount of contact on my center is going to give the opponent a clear advantage that should not come from the officiating.

I consider that "working" the officials and, more often than not, either the open-court calls decreased (which I prefer) or the inside calls increased or both. Was it always my influence that did it? I don't really care. Is this cheating? If no one blows a whistle on me, I guess not. Is this a sign of bad officiating of officiating weakness? I'm not the best judge, but I don't really think so.

I can't say I pay a lot of attention, but I note early if they are vocal. If they seem like they are trying to call the game from the bench, I look for cues from the crew about how this is going over. I know this has been the whole focus of the thread, but I don't want it to be more than 10 - 15% of my focus. If we played a different system, that number would be way too high but we run a Grinnell-type system which dictates to the extreme rather than adjust.

I've got news for you, coach. You're never going to see positive results from this one. You're telling me, "You're cheating us." I'm not going to listen to that and I don't know any other official who is either.

Advice

1- If you want me to listen to you and to talk to you, speak to me in the same manner that you want to be spoken to.

2- Never say anything that accuses me of favoring the other team. I'm not there to favor either club. Accusing me of cheating will just get you a deaf ear. If you continue with it, it'll get you a seat. (It amazes me that coaches still haven't figured this one out.)

3- Don't use announcerspeak terms like "over the back" or "reachin!" It tells me that you don't know the rules, which means that nothing I say will matter. So I'm not going to say anything.

Hope that helps!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 5th, 2006 at 07:08 PM]

Coach, I'll take your sincerity at face value, but can I suggest that you did not give the alternate approach much of a chance? In the first post, you said: "I decided that I was going to put all of my game energy into coaching the bench and was not going to say anything to officials during the games (except when necessary for a clarification or conference, etc)." You then changed your mind "by the end of [your] first game back." You said: "After that game, I decided that I couldn't just say nothing and needed another plan." I'm not accussing you of being insincere, but I will say that if you changed your mind after one game it does appear that you were a little too eager to enter the fray with the officials. As you say, you've given this topic a lot of thought.

Why not give your first plan a real chance at success? Tarheelcoach has given you/us a coach's perspective that in many games "working" (even in the positive sense) officials is unnecessary. There might be a few crews that invite some "working," and you simply respond to their invitation. You admitted that the crew on your first game back was an inexperienced crew. Can you go through a whole season with a coaching-only attitude and see how it goes? You might be surprised at the results.

I agree with those who have posted that when a coach is constantly questioning the officials, it sends a message to their players. You have been careful to point out that you are clear with your players about *their* roles - they don't get to complain - and that is a good step, but you may not be fully appreciating the message that you are sending to the young people who are learning life lessons from you.

Best wishes as you continue to learn and improve. Most of us here are similarly hoping to learn and improve.

Here's a suggestion...
 

As a former player, coach and current ref, here are some suggestions for Bebanovich and the other coaches on this forum:

1) Coach your team!! If you put three quarters of the amount of energy into devising an 'unstoppable' play as you have worrying about how to work the officials, your team gameplan might improve to the point where you don't have to worry about the officials.

2) Teach your team the FUNDAMENTALS!!!! If your team is playing defense properly, boxing out properly, dribbling and passing and screening properly, you don't have to worry about us officials.

3) Make it about the kids!!! They are there to have fun and learn, not be brought down by some 'adult' that needs to feel justified in his position on the bench.

The fact that you feel you need to gain an extra edge is not justified by saying that your opposing coaches might out-yell or out-whine you. If you ever sit back and watch a game in which you have no rooting interest, you will notice how much easier it is to see the officials' calls for what they are.

I handle the squeaky wheel coaches with my own tactic. When they scream and scream for a call, I give it to them. And after the other team inbounds the ball following the infraction they asked for, they normally shut up.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Feb 6th, 2006 at 12:24 PM]

Give the coach a chance.
 

Dan ref.... you're a bitter old man.

To all coaches...I think you will find that most officials aren't really listening to you. I know I try to ignore everything except what is happening in front of me.

I can only think of one time when a coaches comment(s) impacted how one of my games was called. My partner and I had a good pregame and I thought things were going very well. He was "letting the play" more than I early on but we got on the same page rather quickly.

Early in the second period my partner came over during a time out and said that both coaches were complaining about not getting the same call (they both wanted the bumping in the paint to stop). He suggested that should probably watch for it a little more then added "Maybe we are letting too much go...it's at least worth considering. Let's talk to them more off ball." We did that the rest of the period (and called a few fouls).

In the third quarter, both teams cleaned it up and we didn't hear anything further from either coach...except for the fact that one team left with a loss, everyone left happy.

Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

This actually made me laugh!

Thanks for brightening up my otherwise miserable existance.

HELLO!?!? Are you listening to yourself? You quit bugging the refs and your team won. Why not, "Lesson learned?"

I'm sorry to sound impatient and rude, but I really get tired of you coaches yelling and yelling at me when it's the players who should be receiving 100% of your attention. The more you coach them, the better they'll play. The more you don't blame someone else when they goof, the more they'll work on their shortcomings. It's just that simple. Trying to get a win out of the ref is a huge waste of time, and of taxpayer money.

Of course there's room for the occasional suggestion or question. But the tone of your post to is strategize your conversations, and that's simply not a helpful thing to do. The more coaches do this to me, the less lee-way they get.

I had a coach question a call (relatively politely) during a dead ball. I told him the rules basis of my call, and he disagreed, but then said, okay if that's the way you're going to call it, we won't use that play. And they didn't. And they won, by the way. He wasn't working me, he was adjusting. That's good strategy. You teach your players to adjust to the reffing they've got. That's just good coaching.

Oh, and while you're at it, talk to the parents. Don't let them do the yelling that you can't do. The fewer zingers I get from the stands the more lee-way I'll give the coach, frankly.

Just a few suggestions from a grouchy ref.

Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

Hey now...how do you know he's bitter? How do you know he's old? Just because he likes the damn Yankees doesn't make him old and bitter...

As far as advice for the original posting coach - leave the officials alone. You can't honestly believe that the refs are making calls based on anything the other coach says. The whole idea of refs getting "worked" is silly - just coach your team. If the other coach is doing lots of yelling, a simple "You gonna let him do that all night?" is all you need to say...just coach your kids...

Originally posted by blindzebra

"Coaches that yap all game cause headaches, but they don't get calls."
"In fact, if you want to use the violation calling machine reference, the natural reaction to a pain in the rear is not to give them what they want."
"Coaches that say very little and pick there spots, garner much more respect and get listened to and not just heard."
"You want an officials advice, coach your team, don't worry about the officials, don't worry about what the other coach is doing, if you and your team are focused on playing everything takes care of itself."

I think blindzerbra's earlier quote states it best.

Treat your officials with respect, ask LEGITIMATE questions, DO NOT officiate the game, and you will be amazed at how enjoyable games can be played.

Officials will usually communicate with each other during the game and especially during the breaks regarding what is happening on the floor and how it is being addressed.

Sounds like the "Coach" is trying to "work" this thread.... or is it the Officials replying to this thread.

Thank You Coach, I will watch for it.

Re: Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

Geeze Rocky, thanks for putting in a good word for me...I kinda thought you would spend a couple of days hanging around the house unshaved in your PJs & slippers...you know, on account of what happened, well, you know, uhmmm...yesterday - getting screwed by those damn football referees and all. :eek:

Hang in there, you'll reach bitter & old soon enough.

You have potential!

Re: Re: Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

Huh??? What in the world are you talking about? i really have no idea what you are referring to...see, I went to a hypnotherapist this morning before work and the last 24 hours are completely blacked out for me. Sometime in the next three to five days, reality will come crashing back down and I will realize how many blown opportunities and assignments there were yesterday...then, and only then will we talk about those %$#&*$@ referees!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

Hmmm...sounds like there's an opportunity for those Boston hypnotherapists to open a practice in Seattle.

btw...check out this clown:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playof...ael&id=2320683

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give the coach a chance.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]I don't think it cost them the game, but I don't like the 3 or 4 major calls of the game...nuff said for now. When the hypnosis wears off, then I'll remember more...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by bebanovich
<i> The only other thing I said to officials all night was a quip to the same ref as he ran by and it ended up being a <b> tournament win </b> for us. </i>.


HELLO!?!? Are you listening to yourself? You quit bugging the refs and your team won. Why not, "Lesson learned?"


The very next sentence was, "Since then I am much more selective about the types of calls being made and the crew before I open my mouth."

Not exactly, "lesson learned," but also not exactly, "so after the jerk ran by, I let loose a string of profanities about his mother."

Thank you for your thoughtful post and you make an excellent point. I will start by answering the point and saying that, from a coaching stand-point, feeling like I got worked was not acceptable to me. OK Dan_Ref and BlindZebra, start cutting and pasting from above.

I also knew that my kids thought that, despite my coaching them, I wasn't in the game. Imagine The White Shadow but without Salami and Goldberg. I had one early season practice with two players in the gym and 6 players standing in front of the school making some kind of a statement. Coach Drill-Instructor gets abandoned and coach Buddy-Boy gets walked-on. By game 1 I've got their attention but afterwards I've got a silent van full of disappointed players who think I wasn't in the game.

For most of the first season I didn't have the tools or awareness to do much more than chirp enough to not get out-squeaked and, while that seems to have raised a lot of ire here, I have never so much as flirted with a T. My original post - obviously poorly titled and, I guess, not totally clear - was meant to say: I started out wanting to say nothing; I decided I couldn't do that and started saying something - respectfully, never personal, not constantly but without much thought or plan; a good crew made me realize that I needed to be much more discriminating and selective; I then asked if coaches-working-officials-interactions were a necessary evil or if they should be mandated out of existence, I speculated that maybe there were times where a coach legitimately pointed out some concern or emphasis that was legit, I asked if there was some positive aspect as long as they could be controlled.

I don't plan to go a whole season of just coaching the bench mainly because I feel like 90% my interactions with officials are very positive. What I defined as "working" an official is what several thoughtful posters described as things I should try instead of "working" an official. Asking questions, showing respect, talking quietly and on breaks and picking my moments. I would say that about 8% or maybe less, I might put the heat to a less-experienced or less-confident crew. Basketball is competition and we all learn to take the heat. No new official will ever get a personal slur, accusation or F-bomb from me, they also won't get my apologies for poking at the edges a little. About 2% is emotion/ego.

I've come this far, I might as well finish 'er off . . . I did not intend to ruffle any feathers or push any buttons with this thread but now that I have I will admit it's been a little fun to watch. I've seen:

A few very thoughtful posts from officials who thought that sometimes the squeaky wheel does get greased but that it might be best to bide my time and wait for the opportunity to point out that the opposing wheel was just doing a bunch of squeaking. One or two officials tried to help me project what this might look like and if this was possible. I think I learned something new here.

A lot of very thoughtful posts who admitted that sometimes a weak crew could be worked but that, by and large it was better to focus on the kids and pick your spots. I think I'm already 90% with you.

A few thoughtful posts who gave helpful advice telling me to stop being a pest but many of these responses seemed to be based on an impression garnered from other posts that I was just a howler monkey.

A few less than thoughtful posts telling me that the suggestion that ANY officials calls could be influenced by a coach was outrageous and that any coach trying to influence his calls was going to negatively influence his calls. These were fun.

A couple of flame baits. I resisted the urge because I know this is already a touchy subject for a coach to drop on an officials' forum and I do appreciate the thoughtful feedback on a topic that I obviously didn't do a great job of communicating from the start. Another time maybe Dan_Ref and BlindZebra.

In my mind, this is the fault of the officials, or their local association. Like it or not, when it comes to establishing ref pay, the refs these day hold most of the cards due to the shortage of officials, but usually fail to play them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating screwing the schools or whoever you work for, but being fairly compensated for a service you provide is not unreasonable, and not having a raise in 15 years is ludicrous.

How many of you don't get a raise on a regular basis at your normal job? Why shouldn't officiating be any different?

As someone who coaches HS baseball and officiates basketball, I can understand things from both perspectives. Officials need to understand that the coach has much more at stake and invested in the outcome than the officials, and officials need to consider that in our interaction with coaches. Officials don't have any stake in the outcome of the game and we're there to call a fair game and manage the game. Generally speaking, I don't have problems with coaches who understand that point, and I try to keep that in perspective when coaching.

Of the points mentioned in the post, this is what I take issue with: "No new official will ever get a personal slur, accusation or F-bomb from me, they also won't get my apologies for poking at the edges a little. About 2% is emotion/ego." Firstly, you specified that no "new" official will be insulted like this, I assume you meant all officials. Secondly, what right do you have to "poke at the edges" and what exactly does that mean? Sounds like you are trying to either go after an official personally to get under his skin, or you're trying to throw him off his game. The official is doing a job, what right do you have to intentionally make that job more difficult to do, and what purpose does it serve, other than to stroke your own ego. I have no problem giving explanations, answering questions or even hearing legitimate disagreement, but I do take issue with someone "poking at the edges" to either demean me or make it harder to do my job. How would you like it if your principal or AD sat behind your bench and started "poking at the edges" by criticizing your coaching decisions loudly?

In terms of legitimately dealing with an official, I welcome comments such as "watch for 44 hooking my post player," or something to that effect because it provides me with information that could help me do my job better. The more detailed the information, the more credible it is. I might not see the same thing that you do, but now I know what to look for, or at the least, now I will be able to give you a better explanation if I am not going to make a call. That's good communication, not "working" and the only way a coach can effectively reach that level of communication is if he picks his spots well, and establishes credibility, not by agreeing with every call, but by accepting explanations that I give and most importantly, not constantly begging.

Finally, I accept the argument that a coach needs to stand up for his players, it's one way to maintain control of the team, and to gain respect. I have a rule with my baseball team that players are not allowed to question an umpire's decision, because that's my role as a coach. The line though, is thin, because if you are constantly arguing, you lose credibility with your players, and, as I've seen often officiating, you give your players a scapegoat and a reason to fail. As an official, I have no problem with a coach questioning a call or a no call, as long as they do it without an attempt to show me up and when they get an answer or when play resumes that they leave it alone. Again, we as officials must accept this because the game is a competitive game and the emotions of competition can sometimes take over, but it must never be persistent, get personal or be abrasive in any way.

Ok, it took me a half hour to read this thread, so I thought I'd chime in. Coach, it sounds like you are on the right track to dealing with officials. I give much more creedance to a coach that picks his or her spots rather than the ones that are complaining on every possession. There is a coach in a conference I work often that knows the game very well. Some nights he comes in and asks good questions. This has more of an effect on me as an official. I know him well and if he says politely that it looks like I'm missing something, you can bet I'll be thinking about it. This same coach, however, has they Hyde side where some nights he complains at everything and has zero credibility on those nights. As far as you idea that you need to complain to show your team that you are behind them (paraphrasing here), I'd say work hard with your players to make them realize that is untrue. It sounds like you want to take "the road less travelled" here and be the good sportsman, but it isn't easy. Yes, people need to stand up for themselves and in this case, their team, but there's an appropriate time and way of doing this. Keep up the good work as far as making your players treat other respectfully. It is greatly appreciated.

I have to disagree with you. Officials do not have anything how a league pays officials and how much. This is not in the hands of any official or association. Not everyone is assigned games through associations, so I am not sure how an official's association would have anything to do with what someone gets paid for a particular league.

Peace

Wow, what a great post. I'm going to respond only to this part and let the rest speak for itself. I did mean that NO official gets this treatment from me but I was being specific about new er officials because I wanted to make the point that I do up the pressure a little on newer officials. I know it's dangerous to leave it that vague when every official here can probably picture in their sleep what that might look like.

Pressure can't ever be intended simply to get an official off his/her game because that doesn't benefit anyone. The killer combo to me is when it feels too tight in the open court and too loose inside, so I'll stick to that example. My questions might get harsher - but still not loud ("you saw contact from here or you saw his arm going around the man? " or "how is that even effecting the play"). The biggest difference with a newer official is after questioning a play, I usually will shake my head and say, over-dramatically, "I don't know about that."

Occasionally I might say something sarcastic but it's directed at the situation and not the official. Example from our last game: We are a small public school who, because of our size, were put in a private Christian league. I was convinced that our press was forcing our opponent into travelling near half-court but it hadn't been called. In the meantime, I have a tiny, fearless guard who uses a jumpstop move near the basket and he was getting called everytime. My view was obscured but I see him in practice everyday and about 10% of the time his feet don't hit simultaneously. But that point is moot, I wanted the call on our opponent so I (earlier I would have said worked) strategically asked for it. When I got it I said only loudly enough for my bench and the offical to hear, "what do you know, Christians do make mistakes." He looked over a little unsure and I had a big smile on my face. Once he laughed, my kids, who are pretty much all Christians too, laughed as well.

Poke at the edges means I want it to be uncomfortable to blow the whistle I don't want and comfortable to blow the whistle I do want. The better / more experienced the official gets the less comfortable or uncomfortable I can make him/her.

I guess, in a sense, this is taking someone off of their game and this is probably going to be the 10% where thoughtful coach and thoughtful official disagree on this issue.

Coach - "You're a riot! You actually spend time thinking about this stuff? Before a game, you must be like Robert DiNiro in front of a mirror practicing saying,

"You talking to me, Ref?

"YOU.......talkingtomeRef?

"you TALKING to ME, ref?

Hey, to each his own but as a Coach, I think you'd be better off working on basketball's finer points with the kids.

Yeah, sounds like you've pegged me, JCrow. I would coach my kids about basketball but I can't really think about more than 1 thing at a time and next week I'll be thinking about car wax. Anyone know of a good car wax forum?

If only there were some coaching resources I could have access to, maybe I could spend a week thinking about that.

Coach,

I'm a two year official in basketball and football but am not new to the "game" you're describing. As a father of three grown children and now a grandpa to one, I've had ample opportunity to coach as well as be a stand-in umpire in the old days of little league.

Both of my daughters were State Champions as sisters on the same HS team in volleyball and went on to have their college tuition paid for by their athletic and scholastic abilities. I also helped coach their traveling VB squads for AAU and national tournament play.

Bottom line? I know how to work refs. I've done it. I've earned it. I've gotten the 50/50 calls to maybe fall my way and I've been totally ignored other times.

When something was really missed, and I mean really missed, I would be short, quick and explosive and then let it go. Believe me, a ref knows when he blew a call and it happens. It's happened to me but we go on.

It doesn't need to be dwelled upon for three periods as everyone knows what has happened.

I don't post often here any more since I'm running out of daylight by days end, but I sense many different philosophies from many different thread participants.

Suffice it to say, whatever we are paid is nowhere near what should be paid for the amount of garbage, we as referee's put up with every year. On the other hand, we are expected to do a fair and honest game.

How many times have you seen a ref miss a call which you want, but then allows *your player* a little slack at other times? Is it fair? Probably not. But it can be considered a part of the 'game management' techniques.

My advice to you is, if you want to "work a ref" be short, be succinct, make your point quickly so as not to be perceived as 'showing up the ref', then sit back down.

Toss out a "nice call" or "good catch there" even though his/her call went against you. Be honest with yourself, your team and your officiating crew.

I'm not the best ref out here, in fact if I was considered within the top 50% I'd be happy, but I have much work to do. What I am though is fair and honest. I don't believe any of us explicitly go after a coach or player, we may watch for soemthing due to a reputation, but we don't hunt it down. Or at least I don't.

If I blow something or something happens to which my partner and I aren't sure of or have experienced, rest assured I'll do what I deem to be fair and appropriate. It may not conform to the rule technically, but it will be fair to all parties concerned whether you believe it to be or not.

We are short of officials in our region, mainly due to coaches, parents and lately players thinking they are bigger than the game. And since we are short of officials, often I'll work with another official who only has a few years under their belt as well.

Yes, work the officials in a proper, respectful manner and you'll receive the same treatment in return. Reap what you sow.

But since I have coached for so many years, I persoanlly give coaches quite a bit of slack, and they just don't bother me or get under my skin. I do know the difference between "working a ref" and showing one up or being disrespectful to one. And I will T one up if need be.

After reading this thread, I believe you already know what you're doing, right and wrong, when it comes to the treatment of refs.

If it was your son or daughter out there, how would you want another coach to treat them?

Do unto others my friend...




[Edited by WyMike on Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:50 PM]

Take aways
 

So...

After 5 pages of coach trying to work the refs on this forum, the biggest take away for me is the following.

1. Any attempt by a coach perceived as "working" or "influence peddling" will most likely be met with resistance and disdain.

2. Continued pining and follow-up lead to an escalation with the general result of it getting personal by both parties. Need proof? Look at this thread as an example in miniature of the whole concept...

3. There is a greater chance of success "working" your team to adjust to the calling style of the officials than "working" the officials to adjust to the playing style of your team.

Sometimes I read a post in which it seems like the author has it all together. That's a great post, WyMike, and it helps both coaches *and* officials. Thanks.

Another way to compliment an official
 

WyMike's suggestion that coaches periodically throw out a "nice call" or "good catch there" reminds me of something that I have observed, and I offer it here to coaches who are looking for positive ways to interact with officials.

Perhaps even less direct than a "good call" to the official can be calling over your player who has just committed a foul and talking to her/him just loud enough for the calling official, who is now tableside, to hear. Say something like: "Remember what we talked about when we covered the principles of verticality. You had your torso in good position, but your arms were at an angle. These officials are smart enough to see when we're not doing it right." Statements like that serve two purposes: (1) you *are* coaching your players and (2) you *are* complimenting the official without it being so direct that the official will wonder if you're "working" her/him. Just a thought.

Travis Bickle.

Sigh...the snitful one, JR, was fond of Travis Bickle...

OOPS! Off topic!! Sorry...here are some on-topic words:

HS game, I have a foul on A1, not in the act of shooting because even though A1 was driving the endline he kicked the ball out to team A's 3 point shooting stud as B1 made illegal contact, at least in my opinion anyway. So I report & coach A is having a minor stroke..."Wha??!! C'mon Dan, he was shooting! How is that on the floor???! He was going to shoot!!!"

"Coach", I sez, "we'll just have to disagree on that one because as far as I'm concerned that was a pass"

I gotta admit, if I was being worked his next line did get to me. Half smiling, rolling his eyes he said

"That kid *NEVER* passes the ball."

I second this motion.

Now that's coaching ;)

Re: Another way to compliment an official
 

Call me cynical if you like, but as evidenced by this thread, I ain't buying anything...good, bad or indifferent...coming from a coach during a game.

I'm not buying before or after the game either.;)

http://www.carpolishes.com/

Excellent career move.

Re: Take aways
 

My, my . . . feeling a little sensitive are we? I think the big boys felt like they were having a grown-up conversation. I'm sorry if you're feeling worked. Did some mean coach tell you that vertical stripes aren't slimming and you're feeling grumpy?

My motivation for working officials here is what exactly? You might accidently let slip some deep secret from the fraternal order of basketball officials that I could use to extort you for calls at my next game?

Bwooohoooohaaaahaaa . . . my evil plan is nearly complete. But wait . . . what's this? I'm foiled by the brilliance of PGCougar. Blast!

Yes, this kind of discriminating judgment must make you a fantastic official. Don't take what you're seeing at face value . . . read between the lines and project what you think my motives must be based on your past experiences with other coaches, etc. Fantastic!

Isn't there a Fox-40 emoticon so you can give me a T or two and show my *** who is boss?

Do you see any difference between me trying to work someone and me trying to have a grown-up conversation with thoughtful people (which is, mostly what has transpired here, thanks to some true ambassadors of the game)?

There you go Coug, I made my motives for this post crystal clear so you won't have any trouble discerning them. No hidden agenda here, OK?

Glazes, polishes, cleaners, detailing kits, micro fiber detail towel?! No, no . . . I can't handle more than one thing at a time. Wax only please. And, in terms of a career move, I thought I couldn't go any lower than coach.

Re: Another way to compliment an official
 

I generally don't like complements coming from a coach during a game because most of the time they're disingenuous. I don't want a buddy now and then have that same person become an enemy later, I like consistency. I've noticed that often the more polite people tend to be the worst ones in terms of trying to get one over on me. This type of compliment seems like the coach is talking down to me or judging me, and I tend to resent that. Similarly, I would not want to discuss either team's strategy after the game or evaluate the quality of the coach's team or players in the presence of the team's coach. I respect the domain of the coach, I don't question him or discuss the strategic elements of the game with him, and I think that such compliments as the one you suggest cross over that same line onto rules/mechanics, which is the domain of the official. In my opinion, it's a matter of respect.

Re: Re: Another way to compliment an official
 

We certainly agree that it is a matter of respect. I suppose we might have some disagreement about how best to demonstrate that respect. Just like there are a lot of different parenting styles, the most important thing to get across to your children is that you LOVE them. Even though we parents mess up and say or do something wrong, our kids generally *know* when we're being genuine and they're pretty forgiving of our mistakes. I think the same thing goes here. We officials generally *know* when we are being respected and when we are being snowed. We can be pretty accepting of the wrong words from a coach who has demonstrated the right motive. And so we're back to our area of agreement: it is a matter of respect.

For what it is worth, although there is nothing "special" about the words I suggested, I do not agree that a coach talking to her/his players about rules is crossing into an arena that belongs exclusively to us as officials. Good coaches teach their players the rules so that the players can play within them. We have often talked about how the good team will adjust to what officials are/are not calling. A coach plays a significant role in helping her/his players learn how and where to adjust.

Re: Re: Take aways
 

Hey Bebanovich,

Hope that throbbing vein subsides - it's not very becoming.

Just in case you didn't know, I've been coaching for 20 years and other than filling in for rec programs in a pinch, have never officiated. I'd be a lousy official I'm sure. I think you read wayyyyyyy too much into what I said and jumped to conclusions. I wonder if the officials might jump to conclusions on comments you might make too...

Look, if you believe you can spend your time influencing the calls, go ahead. I'll spend a few moments getting clarifications from the officiating crew on what's happening and then work with my team to adjust. I guess it's my belief that my team is more open to suggestions than the officials.

Have a great season coach.

One of my 10th Grade players this year in the YBL has the habit of "resting" his hand on the hip of a driving defender. He doesn't push off or affect the dribbler - he just puts a "lazy" hand on him. He has the potential to be a very point guard. I told him in practice that if the driver shoots that most Refs will call this a foul as there was a POE out a few years back on it.

First game, a kid on the other team drives. My guy gives him the lazy-hand....TWEET...3-point play. We lose in OT.

Superbowl. Here's a part of the NFL's rule on Pass Interfernce:

(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

Granted, Seattle's receiver would have caught that pass regardless of his PI move BUT it was a legit call. His technique was flawed. The Seattle Coach thinks the Refs stole his Superbowl but did he spend enough time coaching proper technique with his receivers to avoid such a disaster in the ultimate game?

Coaches that go after Refs are just ducking responsibility.
Had I worked more with my PG on that "lazy hand".....had I been more creative in practice (maybe make him wear a mitten one practice).....my Team might have won that game.

Likewise, Mike Holgram should have worked harder on his receivers' technique. A sloppy technique cost him 6 in the Superbowl not the Ref.

As a Coach...I just have to believe that working on technique & fundamentals pays off higher than using manipulation verbage on the Refs. It's working on legitimately getting better at something and not being a weasel.

An analogy to consider.

Referee's represent a certain authority on the basketball floor. We have our responsibilities to call violations fairly, clearly and to the best of our abilities.

Others in society have a similiar role.

So lets say a "refferee working " coach is on the team bus and its pulled over by a peace officer for not clearing an intersection after a red light.

Would you want your children on the bus to hear:
"Thats a incredibaly stupid call Officer"
"Thats rediculious, it was the other guy"
"What are you stopping us for, look at everybody else"
"Go watch that intersection and leave us alone"
"Your killing me, this is just stupid"
"I'm calling your captain tonight and reporting just how incompetent you are"
'why don't you go catch some real criminals?"
.... or worse.

I don't want to overly compare refereeing a simple HS sporting contest with the respect due to police officers everywhere - but I do raise the question: "Would you want your children hearing that?

What would their reaction be?

You just had to go there didn't you...now my hypnosis therapy is wearing off faster than it should. Thanks a lot!

This bebanovich guy (I'm assuming he's a guy) seems like the worst kind of coach. He thinks he's "working" refs when he's really just being a PITA...look at his posts here. Any post that agrees with him is a wonderful, insightful, thoughtful post...someone like PGCougar comes along and disagrees with him, and it's instant sarcasm and a-holeness (is that a word? If not, it should be)...we all know coaches like that, don't we?

Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...

http://spike-washburn.vpscenter.com/...0161_thumb.jpg
Kinda cute - coach comes to an official's forum and who does he piss off?

Another coach. :shrug:

Anyway I've heard there are coaches that will work you by saying *you're* doing a great job but your *partner* is killing him. No coach has ever said that to me but I've heard that it's done.

It happens and the next time you switch he's telling your partner what a great job he's doing and saying but Dan is killing me.:D

ROFLMAO...that's a great picture!!

Just some advice for what has worked for me when I've coached, as far as working the refs.

"Good call, ref". "Nice game, ref". "I hope you get assigned here again."

After awhile, you stop worrying about every call. You realize that half the time you were going to yell, there's a turnover or a different call that makes your complaint moot.

Then you realize that the "bad calls" tend to even out anyway.

Finally, you notice that your players are playing better because you are coaching them instead of complaining constantly.

Try officiating for awhile and see how you respond to coaches "working you". It's sure to help your perspective.

Amen.

Sincerely IMO, I think if a coach wants to learn the best way to "work an official", so to speak, a coach should elicit that type of advice from successful coaches he/she respects, and not from officials.

I wouldn't go to a coach's forum and ask what is the best way to communicate with coaches. I would go to fellow officials for that type of advice.

Re: Re: Re: Take aways
 

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar Hey Bebanovich, Hope that throbbing vein subsides - it's not very becoming. Just in case you didn't know, I've been coaching for 20 years and other than filling in for rec programs in a pinch, have never officiated. I'd be a lousy official I'm sure.

No, not a throbbing vein, but sarcastic, snarkiness. Certainly a swing and a miss in either case. I don't understand this implication that I'm here to "work" anyone here and I find it kind of silly.

OK. I am posting the two paragraphs from the original post containing all of the questions that I asked. Although the post has never been edited, I can't seem to find the question, "can you officials please tell me how to work you?" I have left the post single-spaced so you will need to cut and paste into a text document and double-space if you need extra room to read between the lines.

I thought answers might be along the lines of, "Parents and fans are really getting out of control and coaches are feeding the fire. There need to be harsher restrictions on coachers during games." Or, "coaches have a right to ask for clarification on calls and to ask questions. Coaches also get caught up in the emotion of the game and you just can't draw a hard line in the sand. It will always come down to officials' judgment."

I know that, as a teacher, if ALL of my students seem to be off-base with their answers than the error is in the question but - come on - it doesn't remotely ask how to work anyone.

Can you find an example of a post where I was sarcastic or a-holey (let's just make a-holeness and a-holey both words) to someone who wasn't either insinuating (for some, as yet, unexplained reason) that I'm here to work the forum, calling me a liar, calling me unprofessional, calling me the worst kind of coach, calling me a howler monkey (despite no real evidence), was intentionally patronizing sarcastic and a-holey?

For example, JCrow brought up a good example about the message that it sends to kids if you try to work the refs and that it can give your kids an excuse to lose and turn them into victims. While I agreed with the basic premise of his statement, I didn't agree entirely with his take. I started with, "This is a very good point and something that I deal with directly with my team." Then I presented my take. It felt like a grown-up conversation with disagreement.

Later, JCrow decided to get a little patronizing and poke a little fun because I spend time thinking about stuff like this. He advised me to try thinking about coaching. Although I came here for, and enjoy, the intellectual pursuits and can actually handle thinking about a few things at once, I also enjoy the sarcasm and snarkiness when that seems to be where things are going.

See? Same person, two disagreements. One I label thoughtful, one I get all sarcastic and a-holey. And I have the same wry smile on my face when I type both.

Now, while I don't find your post especially thoughtful, and you did, in all fairness, come about as close to calling me a sarcastic a-hole as one possibly can without doing it. And you threw in the patronizing old, "...we all know coaches like that, don't we?" I think this response is remarkably low on the sarcastometer.

When I am being "worked"
 

a little voice inside of me says, "you aren't helping your team coach...you aren't helping your team coach." The same when I do hear fans, especially on silly things like 3 seconds (toes are in the paint), he got mugged (incidental contact), etc. Are there any/many refs that would actually cave/be influenced by a coach that is ranting or kissing @ss other than want to look the other way on close calls for that team? Work me all you want...you may pay a price. However, that price will not be favorable calls for you.

Bebanovich,

Unfortunately, due to certain character defects in my personality that the medications, professionals and my wife have been unable to correct.....I can be sarcastic and a-holey. It's easy being a Knight of the Keyboard. I'm working on it.

The very fact that you are out there working with kids makes you a good guy. None of us are perfect. Trust me, I appreciate the difficulty in Coaching. And I'll admit it...I HATE LOSING.

It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning. It's just bush to me. There are times when a Coach has to speak up. I saw an Andover-Lowell Game a about 8 years ago. Andover presses hard and IMO hand-checks on the traps. Defenders routinely put a hand on the trapped kids hip and pin him from pivoting. Successfully. The Lowell Team plays clean the whole game. The Refs are NOT calling the handchecks. The Lowell Coach says nothing all game. I left that game thinking that the Lowell Coach should have spoke out. This was the first year of the Rule Change on the Double-Bonus. Player Control Foul on Andover - 10th Team Foul - the Refs took Lowell down and gave them 2 shots. If I were the Andover Coach...I'd have been yelling about that one. (I'm an Andover Fan....I was yelling about it from the stands. Sorry guys...it's true.)

But that stuff is on specific points of the Rules that are actually happening during a game. It's sincere and spontaneous. Whether it's in business, personal life or Reffing....nobody likes somebody working them over physchologically or stirring up animosity with fans or kids.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Take aways
 

OK, let's just get past this argument over semantics of "working" versus "communicating" or "having an adult conversation." If all we're really doing is communicating with the officials, that's OK, in fact necessary at times. Good communication fosters an exchange of ideas, and that's a good thing. Sometimes it even influences one of the two parties involved.

Where I think we veer into different directions is the notion that you can build a predictable strategy based entirely on this approach. It's really the substance of whatever you're going to discuss with an official that will determine whether or not you might gain a sympathetic ear. Substance, not the form or manner. And so there's no real way, other than to be honest and earnest with the officials in the flow of the game. I think that some concepts, like ratcheting up the pressure on an inexperienced ref or backing off an experienced ref are not consistent with the "honest or earnest" approach.

Picture a parent coming to a coaching forum looking for a tactful way to influence a coach about a team style of play that would definitely work to his kid's benefit. I wonder what kind of initial response he might get from the coaches. Or even more personal, how well would you take to a parent behind your bench strategically trying to engage you during the flow of a game, questioning your team's approach or making observations about might would work better?

In the grand scheme of all things that influence the outcome of a game, I'd look first to turnovers, then to defensive rebounds, then to offensive rebounds, then to shooting percentages (missed lay-ups, free throws left at the line including missed front ends of 1&1's, etc.) Focus and improvement on all these factors have a much higher yield in the outcome of a game, making the need to "influence" the officials in your favor moot. Whenever a parent tells me the official blew a game for us, I can immediately point to the missed free throws, missed lay-ups, and turnovers and then blame our team for not taking care of business...

Very well said. I was trying to get the same point across but didn't say it nearly as well as you.

How about sharing some of those meds?

Unfortunately, due to my character defects, I am unable to acknowledge any character defects. But that Knight of the Keyboard thing sounds like one I might look into if I decide to acquire any character defects. It must be difficult to type with all the chainmail on.

I think I have left the impression that I create a Bill Walsh-type script and I have the first 15 complaints/compliments written out on a laminated sheet of paper. I was really sharing my ideas that have evolved mainly over my last 3 years of coaching, about being selective and trying to support our particular system.

Let me try to give an example from last year as briefly as I can (which, as we've seen isn't very brief - but that's not a character flaw, just a charming quirk) . . . we currently use a Grinnell-type system based on pressing constantly, subbing a fresh 5 approximately every minute, running like crazy, trading layups for steal-attempts or 3's depending on who you ask and wearing out the opponent. That's a bad summary but useful for the example.

We played a team with horrible sportsmanship and their fans (even the parents) started to feed off of it. My kids were getting irritated and the crew (obviously inexperienced) were clearly nervous. Their solution? One official blew the whistle and admonished my boys to slow down. Did I hear it right? I turned to one of my bench guys and asked, "did he just warn us to slow down?"

The first reaction that went through my head was to yell, "where in the rule book do I find the speed limit" but it feels like I would be throwing an anvil to a drowning crew. That is calculating, I guess, but the fact that I filter out my first emotional reaction doesn't make it cynical to my way of thinking. I'm pissed but I don't know what to do. A little later, a player for the other team flings a ball in anger and it hits one of my kids. No 'T' but a warning. I got nothing, "A warning?! That can't be a warning, you have to T that!"

I now have 2 things on my agenda - protecting our pace and helping keep a lid on this thing, but I don't really know exactly what I'm going to do about it. The other team's bench has been joining the fans in yelling during our freethrows and I get an idea. The opponent with the horrible sportsmanship is a very devout Christian school (that has since started cleaning up its act after multiple complaints in all sports). Our center shoots the first of two freethrows and, sure enough, their bench yells on the release. I jump off the bench and take two steps on the court (very secure that if hucking a ball in anger and hitting an opponent is not a T then I can take a little stroll) and yell pretty loudly, "their fans can be as un-Christian as they want to be, but their bench cannot yell and disrupt our freethrows. It's un-sportsmanlike and it needs to be a T." I saw their coach immediately talking to his players and their fans rode me for a while but they actually were shamed into showing a little more class. At the next break I told me kids to ignore the ref's warning and run like hell, which they did. My perspective was that the opposing players and fans were the problem and not the pace, but I know that when we are running like crazy and subbing every minute we can contribute to a feeling of chaos to anyone who hasn't experienced it before. To our players and fans it's familiar and comfortable. I just wanted to shift the focus off my kids so we could press and run. I also thought I could help control the opposing bench and maybe the fans.

I did have an agenda and I did calculate somewhat but I'm not following a script. With our system my number one priority is always pace and I just don't want to be asking, working, praying, etc for calls that do anything to slow the game and let the opponent (especially the big guys) rest. In terms of rules of thumb for deciding what to say and when - I once heard that only air-traffic controllers make more decisions in a day than teachers so I don't think I know how NOT to form a sentence on-the-fly anymore without taking at least 3 factors into account. My first year of teaching, it took me about 30 seconds to utter each sentence because I had to make sure my brain had filtered out all of the cussing and inappropriate humor.

Thanks for another thoughtful exchange. Are we due for a sarcastic one next time?

P.S. Probably a good post to mention that the level of officiating jumped back up this year. A neighboring athletic director told me that the officials' organization described here was meeting resistance from schools when they tried to negotiate big all-sport contracts and that competition was moving in. He thinks they are responding to market pressure. Second or third-hand info, for what it's worth.

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 04:24 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Take aways
 

The longer this thread goes on, the harder this point will be to defend, but I really did not start this thread to get advice on influencing officiating. I know the thread has become about that and I have engaged in it liberally but on this topic, I'm not completely closed-minded, but I'm pretty damned opinionated already. It really was supposed to be a "would it be possible or even desirable to do away with this aspect of the game all together." I go back and forth about how I would answer this question myself which is why I asked it in an officials' forum.

Crud. The other two parts of your post that I wanted to respond to are really excellent (your post, not my response) but I am running out of steam for tonight.

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 05:57 AM]

Bebanovich, the only reason I used the phrase "working the official, so to speak" is because the name of this thread is "coaches "working" officials ".

But my main point was, I don't think officials should be in the business of advising coaches how to communicate/coach. I think you would gain much more insight by thoroughly observing a coach who seems to do well in dealing with officials. Maybe talk to a coach or two to gain some lessons learned from their careers.

You are not going to gain any concrete answers here b/c just like coaches, officials have their own personalities. We each have our own level of tolerance and our own little pet peeves. Also, each game has its own personality, and what might be tolerated one game may not be tolerated the next.

Yeah, I hear that. I wish there were some correctable error guidelines for the internet because I kind of went nuclear on this thread without meaning to.

BadNewsRef, do you think the rules are all that they can be in terms of moderating coach/official interaction and that each game should be allowed to have its own personality in this area? Or do you think a concerted effort is needed to rein in coaches (and I'm really thinking, by extension, parents)? I hear officials justifiably lament all of the crap they have to put up with but I'm wondering if this is mostly just the normal venting about the woes of the workplace like teachers talking about the students (who they secretly love) as if they are some kind of disease?

Quote:

Originally posted by JCrow ... It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning. ... But that stuff is on specific points of the Rules that are actually happening during a game. It's sincere and spontaneous.

OK, I think I finally thought of a way to explain how I see it. Every coach has done a minimal amount of pre-calculation and is not simply spontaneously standing up equally for specific points of rules. If my point guard travelled and you didn't call it and I yelled, "WALK!" that would be completely spontaneous and without precalculation. It would also be insane. All coaches have, at least said, "it doesn't help me to draw violations on my own team."

I have gone one step further and said, "99% of the time, it really doesn't benefit our style to have any kind of open-court contact called, so I have decided that I will rarely argue for it even when we could benefit in the short-run. I also tend to question those calls more than others, but I don't do it indiscriminately and I don't do it without demanding that my players take note and adjust. If I'm questioning the call, it's because I have questions about the call.

When I saw other posts saying I should pick my moments, I thought, "OK, good. I'm doing that." I just happen to inform them by thinking a lot . . . what do you want, I have a one hour commute each way through the mountains with no decent radio reception.

I know your point was more than that and also had to do with the idea of having thought about what to say and how to say it. This is a little trickier. I will just say that we all have our pet phrases - just ask my wife or students. I also wish to tread lightly if I'm going to question someone in front of a bunch of people so I want to have given it a little thought. Lastly, my posts here were meant to be examples of rules of thumb and not a script for future use. I never know exactly what's going to come out of my mouth until right before it does. I used to not know until after it happened but then I started teaching and I had to create a little buffer zone.

Also, I don't think it's a huge crime to want to be overheard telling a player that you think an official has made the right call. How many of you have been about to leave money in a tip jar at Starbucks (or similar) when the cashier turns his/her back to do something else. You know you wait until they come back so they can see you putting that tip in there. You're going to tip anyway but you want it to be visible if you have a choice. It's not like you wouldn't tip if they went on break or you would take the tip back out again (I hope).

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 11:56 PM]

Happened to me this season, actually. Coach says "YOU'RE doing a great job" to me as I'm standing in front of him. I actually said, "Go on, say the rest." And he did, and I laughed as I got away from him.

He was winning by about 40 points at the time.

You're supposed to tip at Starbucks? :)
Seriously, when I tip at coffee shop, I don't even care who sees me, including the staff. It's not like they're going to remember my dollar or two the next time I come in. "Hey, I got Mr. Wells. He always drops a Washington ino the jar."

Yes, when you are at the gas station you are supposed to grab a couple of pennies from the take a penny tray and then leave them in the jar at Starbucks. :)

That thing's a tip jar?

Geeze, I always pull a buck or 2 out of that jar. Who knew it was for them???