In my daughter's HS game last night ref calls time out, has a few words with opposing player and then her coach. At the half, I ask ref what happened. Her response was that she had heard the player threaten one of my daughters teammates with physical harm, so she gave the player a warning and informed her coach of the same. Half-way through the second half, one of my daughters teammates had an ankle sprain serious enough where she was crying in pain. The same girl that had received the warning earlier screamed at the top of her lungs (not more than 10 feet from both refs) in the direction of the injured player "I hope she F@#$@$ing dies". To my surprise, neither ref responded with any kind of action. Fortunately, the coach sent this out of control girl to the locker room for the remainder of the game. My question is probably pretty obvious by now: shouldn't this girl have been ejected from the game or at least received a technical? Thanks in advance...

Yes, she should have received a technical for saying that.

No, you should not be talking to the officials at halftime or any other point in the game if you are a fan.

Flagrant Technical.

As a fan, you are allowed to talk to the refs. They should not talk to you.

Technical fouls are judgment calls based on each official. Not all officials handle the same situations the same way. So obviously the officials did not have the same reaction that you did. That is never going to change no matter what any of us think what happen. Just ask other officials about how they handle profanity, you will find 10 different answers and each answer will be handled differently based on the official’s experience and where they work.

Peace

You will not like this, but in my judgement the officials handled this correctly.

What you probably didn't see was the coach sending in a substitute for the out of control player. Or the coach used some form of non verbal communiation with the ref to let them know he was going to handle the problem. Again in my opinion- letting the coach handle the problem is always the best way.

The T would follow if the coach didn't take care of it. Also if this player did something to cause the injury, then of course it is either an intentional foul, etc.

I disagree 110%.

The time for the coach to handle this is when he selects his players and trains them to behave as part of his team.

If that was my game that player would be ejected immediately. If the coach then complained that *you* let him take care of it on Tuesday's game I would tell him *you* were dead wrong.

Color me suspicious, bellnier, about your description. She screamed "at the top of her lungs"?! Me thinks thou exaggerateth too much. It is hard enough to opine on things we didn't see or hear. It is even harder to opine on things we didn't see or hear that are colored by a fan with a rooting interest.

As you described it, yes of course the player's behavior warranted a T or a flagrant T. Ultimately, there is not much for you to stew over about this because the matter *was* dealt with - by her coach. In this respect - helping kids to learn - officials and coaches are on the same team. It sounds like the adult team did its job. No need to worry about who gets the glory....

None of us were there, but assuming the description of the events were reasonably accurate, I'm with Juggling referee on this one: Flagrant T, automatic ejection & whatever resulting suspensions or other penalties the school or state assn. may hand down as a result. The young lady in question needs to be held responsible for her actions. Maybe a sharp wake up call now will prevent something more serious later.

man in blue
 

i completly disagree too with your assessment -- its great that the coach handled the situation the way he did but as a ref we are responsible for everything that goes on on the court -- and someone wishing out loud that another player would "f*&^*&% die" is a flagrant tech in my book -- at any level

what if a player commits a reach in foul and the coach tells you before you blow the whistle dont blow your whistle ill deal with him -- whats the point of having you on the court then

Re: man in blue
 

I have to disagree with you. For one we do not know that the official heard the same thing or even knows this was said. We are only responsible for things we see and hear. We are not responsible for things said under someone's breathe, nor should we be. I am going to assume that the coach heard the comments and the officials probably did not hear the comments clearly.

This is not a good analogy if you ask me. We call fouls that we see not what we assume took place (at least I do not). It is also based on judgment of the officials. BTW, what is a "reach" foul?

Peace

jrut
 

i went by what the question described -- if thats how it went down you mean to say you would disagree -- as for reach fould you know what i mean lets say handcheck instead.

how would you react to a player who said "i hope you f#$%(*^ die" to another player or even you -- because if its just one technical i think thats not severe enough.

Bgtg...despite your suspicions, the player screamed so loudly that the entire gym went dead-silent. I can't say whether the refs heard it, but considering that they were sitting not ten feet from the players bench, it seems likely they did. Their body language suggested to me that they heard EVERY word. BTW, I'm not stewing at all about this, but was just curious how other refs would have handled this. My daughter plays in a pretty rough division (we needed a police escort out of the building two games ago) and they can handle themselves but, unfortunately, this kind of misbehavior is on the upswing. As far as refs talking to parents and fans at halftime...I guess some do and some don't...this one did.

That's the problem right there! It's unauthorized mechanics to sit down during the game you're officiating.

It also depends on the climate of the game. I had one last year (Freshman girls, 1 game) where if I would have thrown 1 T, I would have had to toss both teams completely. It wasn't my proudest moment, but I put in the ear plugs, got in, got it done, and got out. Luckily in our case the only people hearing the language were the ones on the floor.

i think
 

he meant they were "Sitting" as in their location relative to the bench not physically sitting.

as to junker if thats what you have to do thats what you have to do -- if something crosses your line that you have set and you dont flag it then you sold out essentially (if you have to call the game then you have to call the game) -- but you would only call the game (or at least i would) after a couple T's for the same offense and maybe even a quick chat with players and coaches after then a couple ejections and another quick chat -- and then if i felt it was getting out of control and i had done everything i could i would make it clear to both sides what was going to happen next. the rest is up to the players and coaches to fix all you can do is put in 100% and thats it.

Re: jrut
 

It depends on the game. It depends on how loud it was said. It depends on the level I am working. All language is not treated the same by me. I do not believe in "automatic" responses like I used to. I have learned over my career that many factors play a role in what I will do. I know I do not call hand checking the same way every single game. It will vary based on who the players are. This situation is not that different.

Peace

"I hope YOU F@#$@$ing die".

Are you sure this wasn't the X-WIVES LEAGUE?

so if you heard a player
 

say that loudly to an injured player or in her direction you would do_________

Just curious
 

Going to get roasted here.. but I will throw it out anyway.

If at halftime a rational, calm fan approaches you and asks a simple question, respectfully, why not choose to be an amassador for the game and answer.

NOW I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:
1) interacting with a hostile fan, clearly they should be ignored or tossed out depending on their degree of hostility and how they are expressing it.
2) getting in a long drawn out conversation that would distract you from your halftime duties.
3) The guy is looking for an arguement.
AGAIN, those situations are not what I am asking about.

I am saying, why walk around with a chip on your shoulder, prejudging all fans as the enemy. If you sense the guy has genuine question, and was just seeking to understand something, and you can teach him a principle of the game with a 10 second conversatino.. why not be a teacher for a moment instead of a policeman.

Would that not fit nicely in the role of a quality official.

My point all along has been judgement. It's been ponted often with all of the things going on you only hear part of what is said. Sometimes we only see part of what happens. It is oviously easier to call the game from the stands or the keyboard.

Also you only quoted part of my post. I said there are times when it is called immediately either a T or toss the player.

We are hired and paid for our judgement. We can only call what we see and hear and are 100% sure of.

Don't take the judgement out of the officials hands.

Re: Just curious
 

My experence is that it always starts friendly, but gets ugly very fast. Not as much at half time but after the game. I'm paid to work the game not make friends or give a rules clinic.

so if you heard a player
say that loudly to an injured player or in her direction you would do_________


Me? I'd run! She sounds pretty damn scary! Plus, my wife is always watching those Lifetime Movies where the husband gets (shot, burnt, crushed, knifed, exploded or eaten by acid) in the Final Scene.

Firstly...this was not a subtle situation where any bias on my part could color the incident worse than it was...the player had been warned earlier about threats of bodily harm and then later screamed---no stage whispers---her profanities loud enough so that the injured girl sprawled under the far basket could hear her (as did the entire gym).

Secondly...my conversation with the ref was friendly and away from the gym (in the school hallway). Our city Varsity teams use a fairly small number of refs, and we get to know them pretty well (especially if we don't abuse them too much...). Of course, they rarely respond to any fan during the course of a game, but some will give a non-confrontational parent or fan a few seconds of conversation outside the game.

Re: Just curious
 

I might answer a question, but I am not going to stop and have a conversation with the fan. If that fan does not mind walking with me on the way to the locker room or out of the gym, then that might be OK. I am just not going to stop everything to talk to a fan. It is not my obligation to do so. I will only do answer any question of the fan is acting properly or the question is reasonable. It would also depend on the environment as well.

Peace

Re: i think
 

Gee, you think? I happen to agree with you, deecee. You can't take what bellnier says as "literally" true.

I doubt that the player literally "threatened" bellnier's daughter's teammate with "physical harm." Most officials would not treat a genuine, literal threat like that with just a warning.

I doubt that the player "screamed at the top of her lungs." Maybe the player said something loud enough for people to hear.

I doubt that the player said what she is alleged to have said "not more than 10 feet from both refs"; in a two-person game, the T and L are not usually so close to each other. Perhaps it happened after the two officials got together while the coach attended to the injured player.... Oh, but that couldn't be the case because the injured girl was "under the far basket."

I doubt that neither of the refs "responded with any kind of action" if what bellnier says is true; I don't care how steely-nerved you are, a girl screaming at the top of her lungs less than 10 feet away is going to at least cause you to look at her to see what's up.

I doubt that "the player screamed so loudly that the entire gym went dead-silent." Really? Even the girl who was crying in pain fell "dead-silent" upon hearing the scream? I don't doubt that the gym was quiet and that a player's comment could be heard clearly; usually, a gym will go quiet when a player goes down with an injury. I think it is far more likely that the gym went quiet for a reason other than this girl's alleged scream.

I doubt that bellnier would be able to recognize "any bias on my part [which] could color the incident worse than it was." Our own biases are hard to detect.

I agree with those who have posted in this thread who opine that if -- and that's a big if -- the events unfolded exactly as described, those events warranted a response from the officials. I remain skeptical about this particular situation because it has been embellished.

I've said plenty enough and mean nobody any ill will. I'm just hoping that when we post plays for which we'd like to receive an opinion, we post those plays as they are and not as we think they need to be for us to get our opinion confirmed.

Could it be
 

That the girl has Torretts sysndrome? Just a thought.

Wrong, wrong and more wrong. You weren't there, you don't know me.
1. To quote the ref "...she said she was going to punch your player in the head..." Isn't that a threat of bodily harm?
2. The girl screamed about as loud as she could, enough to quiet the entire gym.
3. The injured girl was lay under the basket for more than five minutes. The refs were sitting on two chairs between the players benches while the coaches were attending her. The end of each bench was fairly close to those seats, and the player in question was 10 feet from the refs.

Wait, wait, wait a minute
 

You asked for opinions. None of us were there. We do not know how loud or what the official's heard. I would not be surprised if the officials did not hear the comments. You just assume that they heard the girl say those things and you wanted to know why the officials did not eject the player or give the T. It is also possible that the officials were not very experienced and did not know what to do. Either way we are only hearing just your side of this story. We are also only hearing your interpretation which might be very different if we talked to other people at the game. If you do not like the opinions, why did you ask the question in the first place?

Peace

I value all your opinions...where did I say that I didn't? What has little value, however, is the attack by bgtg19...he wasn't at the game and knows nothing about my objectivity. My original intent was not to ipugn the integrity of the referees---I was just curious as to how other refs would handle the situation as I described it.

Do not put words in my mouth. I only said that if you ask for opinions you will get all kinds of points of view. That means that people are not going to buy your view of the story as well. I am not saying that you were even lying or you do not believe what took place. I am just saying the officials might have had another point of view and made a judgment based on what they saw and heard. You cannot get upset when people give their opinion and see things a different way. Things are not always black and white. That is being expressed by a few people that answered to your questions.

Peace

Re: Just curious
 

Well, just as a cautionary tale, I would not have believed I would do this - the other night, end of a hotly contested game, coming out of a time-out, I am trail near the sideline, my partner is administering near the endline, a fan-lady walking by takes a step or two onto the court, pats me on the butt and says I missed such-and-such a call.

She came and was gone . . . I just ignored it . . .

Here is the thing. Players, parents, fans and coaches get very little respect here. Their views are often clouded. Most on this board will take the side of the officials- and they should it's an officials site primarily.

Many of the non-officials who post on this site are trying to make officials look bad. Or at the least prove that they have more knowledge than the officials working the game.

So please understand it is not personal, especially if we hold suspect your motives.

It is our right to stand up for our fellow officials and at the same time post atl. possibilities of what probably happened in your sit.

Simple note: Players are not ejected ... but disqualified. They cannot be sent to the locker room or other confins outside of visability of their guardians. They remain on the bench and with their team.

Coach's are eject-able.

That said; somebody scream's a death wish in my game - there would have to be a real obvious reason no T was delivered. I support what the officials did as the best alternativewith the info that we have.

OK. It's been a while since I've posted (or even read many too many posts). I hope the opinions you express are simply your opinions and do not accurately reflect the sentiments of the majority of the users of the board. I am a coach who had a bunch of questions last year and - although I brought a coaches perspective and did not agree with all of the responses I got - I thought there was a very intelligent and respectful dialogue. I know that I learned a lot and I think that at least a couple of officials learned something about a system they weren't familiar with. I hope that, even though it is primarily a board for officials, this kind of respectful dialogue is still possible.

I realize that your job is often a thankless one (thank you all, by the way) and that rabid competitive zeal can easily turn into hostility, but many of us coaches and, I'm sure parents, still feel that we are colleagues in the same pursuit. This is really not simple naivety talking - I coach in the former per-capita murder capital of the country and I'm just way too far past the point where wins and losses are anywhere near the top of the priority list.

Of course you have a right to stand up for fellow officials, but is that what this has really come down to? I would expect you to rally to a fellow official's defense if he/she were being attacked but, otherwise, isn't the purpose of the board about how to best protect the integrity of the game and those who play, coach and watch it? What's the danger in assuming the man asked legitimate question and just answering honestly? Why circle the wagons and parse the hell out of each sentence? I started reading this post because I played a team yesterday that did more swearing then Sam Kinison, and I really wanted to see how different officials thought about the issue.