Held ball.
Possession arrow is pointing toward Team A's basket. Official hands the ball to A1 for the throw-in. B1 reaches across the end-line as he is trying to defend the throw-in. Official blows whistle and warns Team B for crossing the vertical plane on the throw-in. The warning is recorded in the score book. Official starts the throw-in again. Throw-in is completed. Official does NOT change the Possession arrow. Is the official correct? |
No.
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I would have changed the arrow ... so I'm saying he's wrong - but I'm guessing there is more to this one.
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What's the catch (or what do you think the catch is)? |
I'm guessing that the DOG violation ended the AP throw-in try and it then became a violation throw in try... so maybe thats why he didn't want to change the arrow.
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OK, I'll concede, that was a better question than I originally thought. |
Thanks for the input....
Kajun ref in Texas is right.
Rule 9 Section 2 Article 11 says "The opponent of the thrower shall not have any part of his person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary plane...." The penalty says "The first violation of the throw-in boundary plane by an opponent of the thrower shall result in a team warning for delay...." So.... it is a violation.... and the ball is given back to the same team at the same place.....but because of the violation... by definition this is not an AP throw-in anymore. Therefore the official (table) should not reverse the AP arrow. |
Re: Thanks for the input....
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I predict this thread will be long. |
Re: Thanks for the input....
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The answer here is NO because that would cause team A to gain an advantage by violating the plane. This rule was changed a few years ago!
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The officials were correct in not reversing the AP Arrow per NFHS R9-S2-A11. Prior to B1 reaching across the boundary plane, Team B has not received a delay of game warning for violating the boundary plane during a throw-in, therefore, B1's action during Team A's throw-in is a violation and the penalty is an official team warning and Team A getting the ball for a new throw-in. Team A's original AP throw-in never ended so it does not lose the AP Arrow. Lets take this play one step further. Lets assume that Team B had already received an official team warning for this type of violation. What is the penalty for B1's actions? Team B is charged with a technical foul and Team A receives two free throws and then the ball at the division line opposite the S/T'S Table for a throw-in. Is this throw-in an AP Throw-in or a throw-in that is part of the penalty for Team B's technical foul. The throw-in is part of the technical foul penatly and not an AP Throw-in. And Team A retains the AP Arrow. MTD, Sr. |
Just a question...Do people stay up nights thinking about this??
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But does provide an interesting diversion from work every now and then... ;) |
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Nobody has given me a rules reference as to why the official was wrong for not reversing the AP Arrow. MTD, Sr. |
That is because they can't.
You got it right, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. in your first post when you sited NFHS rule 9.2.11. You stated correctly: "Team A's original AP throw-in never ended so it does not lose the AP Arrow." You didn't reference the rule covering that. That rule is: 6.4.4...The direction of the possesion arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating possesion throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates. (And as I learned in the other post): 4.42.5...The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is touched by, an inbounds player other than the thrower. Therefore, as you stated, the AP throw-in never ended. (ball was never passed. And never touched an inbounds player) Instead the violation occured.(not by the throw-in team) And as Kajun Ref N Texas correctly stated "So.... it is a violation.... and the ball is given back to the same team at the same place.....but because of the violation... by definition this is not an AP throw-in anymore." (And that violation is addressed at the bottom of 9.2.): Penalty: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponets for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot. Team B violated. The penalty for the violation was that Team A was AWARDED a throw-in, not an AP throw-in. (Yes, they the do receive the warning as stated in 9.2.11, Penalties: (Art.11) 1. The first violation....) No change of AP arrow. [Edited by Time2Ref on Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:17 AM] |
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