Last night at our local boy's game there was almost a fight between the opposing "B" coach and official. Our player "A" gets fouled and falls hard to the floor. Ref beckons coach onto floor. Our team is in the BB so "A" would get foul shots. Player A is OK and coach comes off floor. A goes to line. Coach of team B starts yelling at the ref that team A has to use a time out in order to allow player A to stay in game and shoot free throws. Team A has no time outs. Ref lets player A shoot free throws and makes both. Since team B was only ahead by a point and less that 20" on the clock, team A won game by a point. Coach B is furious. According to NFHS Rule 3, Section 3, Art 5, what should have happened?

"A" should not have shot the free throws. Since coach was beckoned and came unto the floor, "A" must be replaced unless his team takes a time out. Since his team had no time outs, they still could have requested a TO at the expense of a technical foul. A could have put their best free throw shooter from the bench into the game to shoot the free throws. Coach B has legitimate complaint.

what level game was this
 

it cant be varsity

because i can tell you if its a lower level game just live with the officials not knowing much...this year as a coach (me) for a boys freshman team i can honestly say for the most part freshman officials are the worst (that's why they are freshman officials).

you name the screw ups they have had and i can tell you even after i tell them during a break in action what should have been they still tell me Im wrong, they are the officials and i dont know the rule.

i can understand now why some coaches get t's but the 2 ive gotten this year i still dont know why i got them :(

such is life.

DeeCee: So Freshman Officials are the worst, thats why they are Freshman Officials! Is that so ?

Over the last 10 years I've had the pleasure of working state and county finals in a sport I truly love. I've never forgotten where I came from. To this day if an AD or assignor gets stuck I will help out.

From Middle School thru Varsity, every year I see your attitude as a coach (shame on you if you are an official) as a cancer in all sports against all officials. The children (yes the children you coach) feed off of you as someone they are supposed to look up to, and to me it sounds as if you are doing a disservice to you players.

What Official worth his sweat wants a coach to tell him what he did wrong. You think we don't make mistakes ! You think we don't discuss things with our partners ! I have no idea who or where your games are played but I would never stand for a coach coming over and telling how the call should have gone.

Tell me I'm wrong, wrong, wrong, it was a bad call, I can live with that. Don't even try to come over (during a break in the action !! I believe there are other things on our mind at that moment)and try to tell me what the rule means. Thats why we have partners, to discuss plays and situations

Here is a little advice next time.......try talking to the official we are only human. I'll listen to anybody but you start screeming or yelling then our conversation is over and I have nothing to say to you.

You might not know why you got the T's but I'm sure everybody reading your post knows why you received them.

you are right
 

i was once a freshman ref -- but some guys (and all associations have them) that arent good officials (believe it or not they are just there for the check) -- and i give slack to the new guys but there are some that i know have 2-3+ years under their belt -- as a coach tell me you would not get mad at the following

sit a) I tell my players to back the ball out -- ref thinks i called timeout -- i say ok its inadvertant and he says onces he blows the whistle for timeout it must be given -- now i go into the second half with only 2 timeouts. he then tells me that him and his partner discussed it and that once they call the timeout and blow the whistle there is nothing that can be done

sit b) how about being told that my player was called for a block because he was stepping back and wasnt set

sit c) or one of my techincals
me: why was that last play a turnover when my player got shoved in the back (i said that as a question -- all i wanted to hear was coach i didnt see a shove -- fine with me) instead i get coach you better sit down the rest of the half (6mins left Q2)
me: for what?
ref: T

sit d) same ref who t'd me up there in a previous game (same ref 2 ts) -- block called on one side and charge called on other side by the same ref -- i agreed with the charge -- i asked him why we were called for the block (i asked him a question calmly because i know how i want coaches to address me)
ref: coach ive had enough from you (when this was the first time i asked him a question)
me: why wont you answer my question?
ref: T

sit e) you want more -- i treat ppl how i want to be treated and the times i have blown up at officials is when they

1) fail to simply address a question i have (not a statement)
2) tell me to sit down or shut up or both
3) miss several calls in their primary in a row
4) argue rules that they dont know and i do and they insist that they are right

i would be happy if once this season a ref told me -- coach i might have missed that or coach ill try harder or even coach what seems to be bothering you -- but not once this year has even 1 official (im wrong 2 officials that i work and have worked with have) but the others havent managed a game at all --

so if you shame on me and im not teaching my kids anything you are right -- because me having to teach my kids how to play proper basketball and hearing them complain about xyz kid grabbing, elbowing, pushing, hand checking etc. and me trying to get the officials to pay attention would get on your nerves too. The one time i did deserve a t and didnt get one was after i was given my inadvertant time-out -- there if he t'd me up i would have completly agreed and appologized to him after the game. And i dont just tell him out of the blue he was wrong -- i take offense to officials who defend themselves with rules that they dont know and they HAVE to be right.

As for the kids they know if they ever get a t they are in the doghouse. Sometimes however a T is necessary from a coach

JerzeeRef, first of all, welcome to the board. You'll find a lot of valuable info here, and also a wide variety of opinions and personalities.

Second, deecee's comment may have come across wrong, but the truth is that most (not all, but most) freshman officials in my area work freshman games because they are either not experienced enough or not talented enough to work a higher level.

Some freshman officials work a real job at night, and their only availability is at 4 pm. So they get freshman games. Some officials have been varsity officials but took a few years off and are getting re-acclimated to officiating. Others are at the ends of their careers and can't keep up with a faster varsity game anymore; but b/c they love officiating, they take a freshman schedule.

But the vast majority are either just starting out (1-3 years of experience) or have never developed into varsity officials. And on the other end of the spectrum, the vast majority of varsity officials wouldn't choose to do freshman games, unless an assignor really didn't have anybody else and needed a favor.

This is not an indictment of freshman officials. It's just how it works. If you can move up, you do.

I hope you'll stick around the forum and contribute and get to know some of us, so that your only impression isn't an angry one. Good luck on the rest of your season.

Re: what level game was this
 

There is also a reason coaches are coaching high school freshmen and not varsity or college ball.

Re: Re: what level game was this
 

I too coach at the JV level and this year has been an experience for me. I officiated for the last 8 years at the varsity level, now coaching at the JV level I see a huge differnece in the quality of officials. It's just a fact of life. The JV officials in our area go from a good 2 man crew one night to 3 man the next night that is awful. I posted last week about one official (he obviously didnt know that I used to be an official) who told me of this new kicking rule. I knew he was wrong, I hope he knew he was wrong. Last nights game had to be the worst. What really makes things look bad on those guys (and I do feel bad for them) is when they arent in position to make calls. Ex: last night the lead was beaten badly, didnt make it to free throw line, he and Center were step for step chasing the play. It was an easy call, blatent hacking foul. Center was right in front of me and made no call, Lead was directly across court made no call. I question the Center and he says its not my call. Okay but why was Lead not down the floor(I didnt ask). Three possesion later, the same guy made a call from the center posion (now on opposite side of my bench)in the far corner next to my bench with the Lead 2 feet away saying clean block and the the trail about 20 ft. away giving the tipped ball signal. Thats what looks bad. I dont think the new guys understand primary/secondary. It's bad here on this level, it's very frustrating but its how it is. Hopefully they will gain experience and somewhere along the line get the proper guidance.

Re: you are right
 

Sit B) He isn't set - (doesn't have position?), moving backward? Sounds like the block was the easy call - maybe the T for the flop was what you thought was more appropriate?

Sit D - E) I looked everywhere in the rule book and case book and I can't find a spot where it says anything like "Offical must respond to coach's questions, comments and whining." ... maybe that's in rule 13 ...

I think you should "sit down and shutup".

its called
 

game management -- if a coach ever asks me a question about a call in a respectful manner i answer it -- i will even go over in a dead ball if he calls me over respectfully -- it doesnt say you should answer questions so why do officials answer questions (part of being an official is to have people skills and be able to have communication between your partner, coach, players and game admin).

and this is my first year coaching high school -- unless you know of a varsity program that would hire a first year coach as their varsity coach then please give me a call -- because im sure the first time you ref'd you got the state finals game...

as for stepping back -- if all he did was step back while the offense just ran straight into him that is a charge -- the only reason he fell was because of the contact so no T for flopping and please show me where in the rule book it says one must be set for a charge to be called.

Coach's:
I love what you do and respect it greatly. Thank you for working with our kids. Thank you for teaching them the game of basketball, sportsmanship, competition and other valuable life lessons.

As an official I know NONE of us are perfect. I miss calls, I miss rules interpretations, I make mistakes.

I am not alone with the others that share the basketball floor during a contest with me. They miss shots, they travel, they make turnovers.

What I bring to every game is a comittment to fairness, unbiased and hard work. I hope beyond all things that the players - with the strategy and direction of their coach's - determine the game's outcome. I don't want attention, I want to help produce a fair game within the rules and let talent (on that night) dictate victory.

I want to hear your comments, note your concerns and improve because of them.

What we do is difficult, in a fast environment and subject to tremendous scrutiny. I accept that. I will be better because of it.

You are expected to advocate for your team - and that is a skill of all coach's. I do encourage you to expect and demand the best from every offical crew you are exposed to in yor career - but understand the limits of human error.

What would basketball be like if every player... every coach ... and every official ... were absolutly perfect?

We would all then miss the good old days when the contest was a contest of people, kids, fan's, players, coach's, cheerleaders and parents rooting for their team to persevere in an imperfect contest.

IMO.

I agree 100%. I feel like my team and I come out and play hard everynight. I expect them to be as near perfect as can be. I also hold the same reguards for myself. Do we as coaches or players always do this?? No way. There have been several games that I wish that I had done things differently. I also expect the officials to do a good job. Myself formerly being an official I know what the job is like. It's very tough. I know when an official makes a bad call, I have been there many times making the wrong call. What I dont understand is how officials who dont know the rules make it onto the court. I never will. Maybe there is a flaw in the system somewhere. It's understandable in lower level games buy JV/V officials should be educated in the game.

refdaddy
 

thank you for that comment -- that is the exact mentality i would like from the venting i am doing about the officials i have had. all i ask of my players and myself is 100% if a player gives me any less hes on the bench -- if i see an official dogging it unfortunatly i cannot sub him out -- but all i want to hear is a, coach I might have missed that -- ive said that to coaches and players and the real good ones know how the system works and acknowledges that i screwed up and we move on -- its the a$$es that make a big deal about it and i T them up.

in 7 years of officiating i think i have given out maybe 5 techs in games that matter (non adult rec league). I strive to defuse situations with coaches and players and if the moment gets heated sometimes i have had short arguments about what I saw versus what a coach saw but only one time i t'd a coach up because he crossed the line. in rec league games however i could very well have a t every half but i dont care because im not paid to babysit and listen to all their NBA whining.

if coaches ask me repectfully i will answer questions all game if i have to (without slowing down the game), because IMO many coaches too need help below the varsity level (and even some at the varsity level) understanding the rules and the little nuances that unless they read and study the rulebook they will never know or get. Then again im also the ref that talks to the fans and jokes with the kids and the score table because i want to enjoy the games that i do and if im not reffing and smiling then its not worth it to me. you can think what you want about how i handle games but im the first to admit fault to a coach/partner/player and there are plenty other refs that know the rulebook way better than i ever will -- but in all my games ive never had an (non-rec league) ejection / cluster-f#$% / or anything that ended with a "what the hell just happened".

very eloquent, Ref Daddy
 

If you wrote that off the top of you head, I am in awe.

English teacher or part time poet?

RE: Injured Player
 

Thank you to everyone for your comments. One last question. If Team A had asked for a time out at the expense of the Technical to keep player A in the game - Then Team B would have received two free throws for the "T" and Team A still would have received their two free throws as well since they were in the BB, is that correct???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
[B]You get what you pay for ... you convince the AD to put up big bucks for freshman games, and I'm guessing you get top notch officals flying in for you. (you'll have to pay travel expenses as well)

Most refs at all levels are trying to make the right call to the best of their ability - if you have the same problems with all the lower level refs, its either a a cancerous problem in your area, or its you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[B]Or it could be you reading and picking things from my post to which you would like to attack. I do believe that they are doing their best. I also feel like some coaches are doing their best, but we know what that gets them sometimes too dont we..FIRED! I just feel like we as officials often complain that about coaches allowing their players to commit 50 fouls in game and that they should clean it up. Coaches would like officiating to be cleaned up too. As I said I have been on both sides of the fence. I did V for 8 years and worked with mostly good partners. The JV level however is not good around here. We have several officials who really dont understand some of the basics of the game and that isn't acceptable.

As for you snide comments about flying officials in, its JV. And if you would read my post in its entirity would should have seen where I said that I guess it is to be expected!! Or maybe I shouldnt expect the officials to be excellent. Tough calls are going to be missed, happens to everyone, but rules interpretations are a different story. Again you say if I have the same problems with all lower lever refs then....yada yada yada. READ THE POST. I said that we have a few who have no clue. I said that one night we will have a good 2 man crew and then next a bad 3 man.

Free advice, wont cost you anything, ease up on the rude comments until after you have read the complete post, then attack if you feel the need.

Re: RE: Injured Player
 

Correct. After the TO, A would shoot the bonus with lane cleared, B would shoot the technicals and then inbound at the division line opposite the table.

Re: RE: Injured Player
 

Yes and no. Yes on the number of free throws. No on the order.

Player A1 shoots two free throws for the double bonus, then Team B shoots two free throws for the technical foul and receives the ball for a throw-in at the division line.

Re: Re: you are right
 

Blind,

You may want to rethink this whole officiating thing.

First of all, sit B) You'd better check the rule book - moving backwards and being set are not reasons to call a block.

Sit D - E) No you don't have to respond to coaches questions, but you have to ask yourself why you woundn't, especially if, as deecee says, they were asked respectfully.

This game is about the kids. There are times that coaches need to, as you put it, "sit down and shutup," this sounds like a situation when the officials need to "stand-up and be men"!

Re: Re: Re: you are right
 

Exactly. Screaming and yelling is one thing, but asking for a rule interpretation in a respectful manner is another. You would have no reason, other than uncertaintly not to explain yourself.

Re: Re: Re: you are right
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[B]The "..." is not meant to exclude what you wrote, just to shorten the amount of space my messages take, as it is an annoyance to scoll through replies to replies to replies. Please know that I read your message in its entirity.

I will concede that I was vague in my block/flop comment earlier. Yes, yes the defender doesn't need to be set - and all that jazz. If it angers, you forget I said it. I'll retract my statement rather than waste space explaining what I meant to say (see my signature).

My comments are influenced by recent events in which I should have T'd a coach (though I'd rather have decked him), and didn't - only to have my consideration spat on later in the game (figuratively). While he is not all coaches he has turned a good season very sour. I give very few T's, I thought that was a good thing - I'm rethinking my stance. An evaluator told me last summer to "T them early, so you don't have to throw them out later" - he's probably right.

Merry Super Bowl week to you all.

deecee:
Although I frequently read to improve my knowledge, I rarely post on this site. On issues that are actually relative to officiating, someone generally posts what I would have stated (and usually much better) or I am not brash enough to believe my limited experience would add any gravity to the debate. As neither of these conditions has developed with your post about freshman officials, I’m compelled to respond to your comments.

I began officiating to continue my long-term love affair with this game. I played in grade, middle and high school, college and in those infamous adult leagues. I coached all of my kids’ teams in rec, select and AAU leagues. I was also fortunate enough to watch every game that one played at the JV and V level in high school. At 48 I found myself without a game to play, coach or watch and made the move to the “dark side” as an official. I attended clinics and camps, studied the rule and casebooks and did one season of rec ball before doing any high school games. I’m now in my fourth year of working high school games. I provide this information only as a background that I would hope shows a love and good understanding of the game.

I work in a large metro area that has two major officials associations and many, many good officials (most of whom would not know me if I walked up and bit them in the butt). Although I’ve kept myself in very good physical condition I recognize my limitations. Including the normal aging issue, I’ve had a hip replacement and lost speed in my sprint. Consequently, I knew from the start that by the time I had the experience to work varsity level games I'd have few years left and difficulty with the speed of the game at that level. This and my work schedule led me to a decision to do only freshman and JV games. Even so, I continue to do everything I can to improve my rules knowledge and game management skills. I give 100% at every game for the entire 28 minutes and work hard to get the right angles and make the correct calls. Most of the partners I’ve worked with do the same (MANY are varsity level officials who help the assignor fill out the 4 PM games before they pull a 7:30 PM V game).

Here’s my point: There are many decent, competent officials working freshman games. They almost always work hard and get the calls correct the vast majority of the time. In my experience (as an official AND a coach) the problem almost always lies with the coach and players. Rather then coaching and playing (and taking the enjoyment from the game) they fail to recognize THEIR limitations and believe that these games are skilled contests that have the gravity of national security attached to them. At best, the players at this level display some raw skills that need serious development or are just good enough to fill out the roster and will never play another minute after they return their jerseys at the end of the season. As you acknowledged, coaches at this level are also raw and learning. This often leads to games that are sloppy (by high school standards) and very difficult to officiate – usually NOT a result of the quality of the officials. I find it difficult to understand how another official could miss this point.

I’d suggest that you and your players would benefit from a reassessment of your game time hostility toward “poor” officials (I know you say you just ask “questions.” However, I strongly suspect they are not questions – as I have calmly told several coaches – but comments in disguise). Relax a little (you can do that and still have a seriousness of purpose). Don't try and control or critique officials. Get into the game as a coach, help develop players who might have a chance at moving up and make the game fun for the majority who will only get this one shot experience at high school basketball. I guarantee it will make you feel better about yourself and the officiating. It’s also more likely to advance your coaching career then trying to “work” the officials or use them as an excuse for poor games.

(Sorry, I normally adhere to the brevity and content rule but I missed the brevity target on this one.)

My Opinion, Coaches and Players react because of their personal investment to the game at hand. (Probably include fans as well) Usually there is nothing personal meant towards the official and as long as they are not vulgar or rude can be handled appropriately. As a player and coach it is up to them to adapt to the style and level of Officiating they have got at that moment. Complaining only shows the true weakness in their game, and I can't remember the last time I changed my call because I was being berated.

I forgive you coach. LOL

runonmt
 

i dont care about the officials getting calls wrong or missing something -- in fact most of my time im trying to make adjustments to my kids --

not once, even in horribly officiated games, have i ever blamed a loss on the refs == the kids know and its a lesson i teach that if we thought the officiating sucked so did the other team so it evens itself out

i have NO hostility towards freshmen refs -- if you read my posts you would see that what annoys me is the lack of officials willing to answer simple questions about rules or close calls i just would like a small explanation (this maybe happens once or twice in a game) -- its not fair for me to put in my 100% expect the same out of my kids and the refs dont seem to be doing the same.

one a similar note -- as an official if i have 2 kids and a coach ask me about XYZ player holding of elbowing and the complaint seems to be legit i will always try and pay a little more attention next time a similar play happens -- if XYZ is doing that and you have been missing it then as an official you need to get on it -- its not that a player or coach is telling you how to do your job its just that we cannot see everything.

to any official who took what i had as an attack on all officials i appologize -- all i said was that at the freshman level (for the most part) you get the lowest level refs/new guys. Its just normal and thats how it works in our association.

as a coach what would you say if your player jumps from the frontcourt and has one foot land in the back court then catches the pass (which originated from the backcourt) and then his other foor hit the front court -- the other coach yells backcourt violation -- The REF stopped the game to explain the backcourt rule -- then we had to inbound which was stolen and i tell the ref that was way out of line what he did and it cost us 2 points and all he could say was "coach its my job that you guys know whats going on" -- yet i ask him a question about a push and he t's me up -- as a coach and as an official what would you say to that?

Re: runonmt
 

Wow. It cost you 2 points because your kid threw a bad pass.

well
 

we lost by 6 -- so unfortunatly those 2 couldve helped

Re: Re: you are right
 

Perhaps you should review what is required to draw a charge.

A player that is backing up (away from the opponent) should never be called for a block unless that opponent was airborne before getting into their path. There is absolutly nothing in any rulebook about being set...all that is required to gain LGP is face the opponent, in the path, and two feet on the floor at some point. If a player is backpeddling, there will be two feet down on nearly every step. You either have a charge or nothing.

I work 10pm-6am at my real job. I work varsity games on my nights off, but plenty of times I work Freshman and JV games starting earlier in the afternoon. A lot of people probably think I'm not good enough for varsity because I'm working those games. I let them think it. Every game is important to the kids playing and I just do the best job I can do, from varsity to 4th grade.