I was doing a JV boys game against two very good teams in are area. Team A is up about 15 points, start of second half. My partner is R so I get the ball for him, first horn blows, I go tell both teams first horn and go take my position on baseline. Second horn goes off, team A comes to take out ball and team B is a little slow coming onto court. Coach is trying to fire up his team with a little extra speech. My partner takes ball sets it on ground and starts is 5 second count. Team A runs over picks it up, easy lay-up. Team B coach is going nuts, people in stands going nuts. I was always told never to do this, it just looks bad. What do you think?

How slow was "a little slow coming out? And how often had they been slow earlier in the game?

This is a perfect example of poor game management. The first half has gone smoothly and in one fleeting moment the whole game went down the proverbial toilet. Even if both ref's called a perfect game before and after this one play that will never be remembered. The only thing Coach B will remember is that you "stuck it to his team" even after they were so far behind.

This was the first time all game they were slow coming onto floor. I'd say they were coming onto the court 10 seconds late if that. I guess all refs are not like Teigan, got a little to much pleasure out of this one for me. Not my cup of tea. I like my tea a little less hostle.

Whack him with an indirect what?

If I was your partner and you did this it would go over as well with me as it did with the coach you whacked.

And if you then are perplexed why I did not have your back and assess Coach B with a T afterwards for calling you a #&*@##! my only response would be I thought the Coach was accuarate in his assessment of you.

Would you do this?
 

What did the coaches think the two horns were for? When the second horn sounds, the teams should be ready for play. If the coach wants to continue to talk should everyone else just wait until he finishes?

Message to Teagan,

It is probably a good idea that you have deleted all your posts to this thread. You were getting yourself into a hole too deep to get out of. When you can't take the heat better just escape and destroy all the evidence against you.

That you would even suggest the indirect you would assess would be for an EXCESSIVE TIMEOUT (per NCAA) is even more assinine than the idea to assess a T in the first place. To be EXCESSIVE the team must have first used up all thier allotted timeouts already, AND secondly, VERBALLY requsted another after that.

If you wish to discuss NF or NCAA rules I am ready, just bring it on.

Re: Would you do this?
 

No NO No-

When the second horn sounds........ The team better be breaking the huddle and getting ready to play!!!

Re: Would you do this?
 

As others have said, for the lack of maybe just clapping your hands and saying "c'mon, let's go" and then waiting a few seconds, you're putting the game in the dumper. It's just shows a lack of game management skill, is all. This type of over-officious call can put you in career limbo.

Re: Re: Would you do this?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

As others have said, for the lack of maybe just clapping your hands and saying "c'mon, let's go" and then waiting a few seconds, you're putting the game in the dumper. It's just shows a lack of game management skill, is all. This type of over-officious call can put you in career limbo.

I feel it's just the opposite - it is a prescribed game management skill in the NFHS rules.

If this has been on ongoing problem in the game - I would do it and have. Especially when this is the first of 2 or 3 games that night (frosh, JV, Var).

This is something that can be addressed earlier in the game with a quick talk to the coach not breaking their huddle. "Coach, next time get them on the floor by the second horn or we'll have to put the ball in play"

Re: Re: Re: Would you do this?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stmaryrams

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: As others have said, for the lack of maybe just clapping your hands and saying "c'mon, let's go" and then waiting a few seconds, you're putting the game in the dumper. It's just shows a lack of game management skill, is all. This type of over-officious call can put you in career limbo. I feel it's just the opposite - it is a prescribed game management skill in the NFHS rules. If this has been on ongoing problem in the game - I would do it and have. Especially when this is the first of 2 or 3 games that night (frosh, JV, Var). This is something that can be addressed earlier in the game with a quick talk to the coach not breaking their huddle. "Coach, next time get them on the floor by the second horn or we'll have to put the ball in play"

The prescribed mechanic is the officials step toward the huddle on the first horn with 1 finger up saying, "First horn."

Then you stay there until they break. If that second horn goes and they are still in a huddle so are you with 2 fingers up, "Second horn let's break, we need them on the floor NOW coach."

I have not had to put a ball on the floor in like 10 years, and I haven't had a partner do it either.

My copy of the NFHS officials manual is quite different.


Now I'm not advocating being overly strict about this, but I'm certainly not going to be over there begging the team to come out and play. I try to follow the proper procedure just maybe bend it a little to give them some leeway if appropriate for the situation.

I have -- ONCE -- given the ball to the offense when the defense refused to come out of the huddle. Warning horn, second horn, whistle ("let's go"), third horn, second whistle ("come on, blue"), no team. Whistle to start play, easy lay-up for white.

That was probably 10 years ago in a CYO game. I would probably do the same in a HS game if the team delayed as much as that team did, but I've never come close to having to do that.

Like others have said;
1st horn- step to the huddle and give em a #1 sign plus verbalize.
2nd horn- give em the #2 sign and a "let's get em ready to play coach".
If they don't come out I go to a captain and remind them to honor the horns and have his team ready to play at the 2nd horn.

If I'm using the resumption of play procedure it's because a team is really really really lagging in coming out but I've not had to do that.

Chuck, I had the exact same thing in an AAU game. Three horns, two whistles and team B does not come out to play. The last thing I yelled was “THE BALLS GOING IN PLAY”. Two players looked up at me, but no one moved. They did not come out until after team A scored. The coach was upset. His explanation was that he did not hear the horn. I have not not had this in HS games. Butif it got to that point I would do the same thing.

If this is ongoing throughout the game I would do that. Especially when the team is causing a delay in the game. If there were any complaints then I can issue a Delay of game warning to the team, and any further delay for breaking the huddle would constitute a T. Lucky for me I have not had to do any of these things.

This isn't a "warning then T" delay situation.

If they are slow coming out, I'll stay by the huddle and give them a nice, hard, long whistle and let them know they had better get out. If they are not running onto the floor, I'll signal to put the ball in. Coach had the whole halftime to inspire his team. He needs to be finished and ready to play on time.

If they are delaying the game from resuming as per rule 10-3-1 (d) how can it not be a delay of game warning.

Common sense would tell us that after teh warning the coach should get the picture. I know common sense isn't all that common anymore.

Common sense would tell us to follow the applicable rule, which is NFHS rule 7-5-1........ That rule does not allow for a "delay of game" warning, as Bob said. The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower or on the floor and the 5-second count starts. Then you call a violation, if necessary. If the team you called the violation on continues to delay, then you can call a "T" on them. At no time, however, is a delay warning issued.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 25th, 2006 at 11:38 AM]

I don't have my rulebooks with me at work today, but unless my memory is really slipping the delay of game rules are a little bit different for the start of the second half than they are for a time-out...doesn't the rule book talk about "consuming more than 1 minute" after the horn to signal the end of half-time? So they get some extra time to break their huddle before we start the second half...a normal time-out situation, they need to be ready on the second horn, but not at intermission...

My rule reference was for NCAA

Nope, there's no difference at all between TO's and the end of intermissions, Rocky. As soon as the final signal(second horn) is sounded for both, the administering official blows his whistle and then starts the "resuming play" procedure if a team(s) isn't ready.

Do me a favor and check under T's and see if there isn't wording similiar to "it is a Technical foul to consume more than one minute following the end of intermission"...we have always handled it that the horns were to signal the end of their warm-up time and then they can huddle briefly and then away we go...

According to NCAA rules you are correct there is a distinction between the start of a half or extra period and time outs. It is different for NFHS as JR and Bob have said.

Rocky -- there's wording similar to that regarding staying away from the playing floor during an intermission, as in the locker room. I don't think it applies to huddles in the bench area.

As Smoke Eater said, you're thinking of the NCAA rule. The FED rule is different, as stated above. Under NFHS, you have to be ready to go on the second horn. Most officials imo will give the teams a few extra seconds and a "hurry up" though. Most, not all- obviously.

The original post starting this thread said that this happened during a high school junior varsity game. That's why we've been using NFHS rules.

Right I have to realize that different areas use different rule sets. In Manitoba we use NCAA for High school, with some conference modifications. Guess it best to specify what rule set we are referencing in the post.

It might make it a little less confusing, but pointing out the difference to a corresponding NCAA rule can't be anything but helpful either. For people using both rulesets, I think it's a worthwhile exercise.

Worthwhile for me anyway - guess I was getting my rulebooks confused...again...and again...and again.

Then your ruling is still incorrect.

This was after a TO -- the "resumption of play" procedure applies in both codes (NCAA reference 4-54, especially AR 32).

The team wasn't "delaying the ball from being made live" by staying in the huddle -- the ball was made live, just without the team on the court / ready to play.

So your manual does not say to step toward the huddle and say first horn? You must have a faulty one.:)

The second part is just good game management and preventive officiating. If we have slow huddle breakers, that part that says, "The officials should then move into their proper positions to resume play," will take 10-15 seconds.;)

Bob, OP says "start of second half", but that isn't a big deal IMO.

I think I would factor in the score and time as well as whether the team was slow coming out all game. If the lead is large enough and the team isn't good enough to come back, I'm not going to pour salt in the wound.
However, I will put the ball on the floor if the team is coming out slow and most of the time I will do this when the slow team is on offense. This sort of puts a little pep in their step.

Man, lost my train of thought due to work getting in the way. The nerve!

Yes Sir, I agree with that A.R. when the teams are already back on the floor after the TO. Direct quote from NCAA rulebook. Not that I have to quote it to you, I just want to.

"Section 3. Indirect Technical Fouls
The following shall result in an indirect technical foul to be charged to a team
(coach), player or, in the case of a substitution, to that individual.
Art. 1. Delay of game. A team shall not delay the game. Delay of the game
shall include, when the game clock is not running:
a. Consuming a full minute by not being ready when it is time to
start either half or any extra period;
b. Failure to supply scorers with data per Rule 3-3;
c. Repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being
promptly put in play, such as delaying the administration of a
throw-in or free throw by engaging in a team huddle any place
on the playing court.
1. One warning shall be given to a team that fails to comply; an
indirect technical foul shall be assessed thereafter.
<font color = red>d. Failing to remove chairs/stools immediately after the warning
signal of any timeout and to complete cleanup before the final
warning signal alerts all personnel that play is going to resume.
1. One warning shall be given to a team that fails to comply; an
indirect technical foul shall be assessed thereafter.</font color>"

[Edited by SmokeEater on Jan 26th, 2006 at 09:01 AM]

Unless the chairs or stools are playing the game how is that relevant to the topic at hand?;)

You obviously have not seen some of the games I have officiated. It was undetermined if the players were chairs or pylons. :)

I have done the same. Usually after a stern warning to the coach on the first offense. I would make sure the coach REMEMBERS that you are going to play on the second horn. If huddles continue to create a delay, simple, play without them!!!!!!!!!!!!