Here's the scenario: during the game, team A runs a play where A2 gets inside position facing the backboard on the weak side. A1 throws a pass off the board to A2, who then puts the ball back up for a layin. They run this play a few times.

Then, on one pass off the board, A1 throws it really hard and it caroms (notice I didn't say "rebounds") off the board over A2's hands and bounces all the way into the backcourt untouched. A1 then goes into the backcourt and touches the ball.

What, if anything, is the call?

I'll say it is an over and back violation. Team A still had team control when the ball crossed the division line. The carom off the backboard was just an errant pass.

Well............
 

You better be sure that you have a pass or you are asking for it, period.

And I am not saying to not rule it a pass at all, but if you are not sure, you will be in big trouble if you call it backcourt violation. You might be a 100% correct, but do not go looking for trouble.

Re: Well............
 

I realize the called violation in this situation is a tough call, but I'd be willing to make it. If Team A has established this play throughout the game, I'd blow it in a heartbeat. The question is, what if you don't blow it dead? An opposing coach that knows the rule will eat you alive. Now that is water that I prefer not to tread in.:)

Re: Re: Well............
 

Now let's be honest. What are the chances that the coach will know what the rule is? Call it or don't call it and either way one of them is going to think you missed it! :D

BTW, I too, think it's a BC violation.

If this is the third time they have run the same play, then I will call it and feel quite sure it was a pass.

If it was the first time, I'm letting it go because I don't know what his intent was.

Re: Re: Well............
 

So, you're officiating water polo now?! :D

Re: Re: Re: Well............
 

Yep, and when I get the new webbed officiating shoes, I'll be the fastest guy in the pool! ;)

Judgement
 

All I am saying is that you better be sure. Because if you just think they ran the play a couple of time and you call this a BC violation, you will find yourself in an arguement. Because the coach will claim it was a shot. So all I am saying is do not just assume, give some benefit of the doubt if there was clearly no attempt to shoot and the other player was clearly attempting to go up and make a play on the ball.

This is just judgement that is all.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Well............
 

I think it *should* be a violation, but as we discussed on McGriff's, I think the rules can be used to show it isn't.

Re: Judgement
 

Judgement is why we get paid the big bucks Rut. If it has been a pattern all game, and it quacks like a duck, I am going to call it as such.

I would rather take heat from the coach I called it on, than the one who I didn't call it for. Common sense and judgment play into every call and interpretation of the rules, but if I am 99.9% sure that was a pass, I am not going wuss out and call it a shot just to avoid the heat.

Help me out here. At what point did team A establish team control?

The original post said that team A was passing the ball - so they have team control...somebody posted one like this before - about a player throwing a pass off the backboard so hard it went clear into the backcourt...I can see both sides: call it bc or claim it was a shot attempt so no team control...what I want to know is who keeps seeing these plays??? I have officiated for 12 years (I think it's 12, maybe more...)and never seen a pass like that once...I think maybe someone is making plays up in their spare time...

I chalk it up to the summer league vortex, if it can happen it will.

While I have never seen a pass carom off and go beyond the division line, I have seen three point tries do it. It doesn't take a lot of force to have it rifle back that far.

It's because you've been doing good basketball. At 6th and 7th grade girls level, and even some boys games at that age level, ANYTHING can happen, and both coaches will have their own interpretation, and there you are ...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Well............
 

Bob and I have discussed this play in the past. The difficulty arises from deciding whether there is a loss of team control like there is on a try or tap. Is it a try or tap since it hit the backboard? A player can throw the ball of the backboard and begin a new dribble. He can attempt a shot, miss everything and go get it. Those two examples would tend to make one think that a ball that hits A's backboard is considered a shot. The NF even clarified theat a pass from behind the arc is considered a shot if it goes in.

As I said, I think it's a violation but if I'm on the floor, I'll probably tell B's coach that I thought it was a shot. :)

Re: Judgement
 

Who cares what the coach claims...<p>Our role in the game is to determine if the rules are being adhered to. We see a play and we react to it. There has been a lot of discussion about what the coach will think. It is not my philosophy to make calls to please the coaches. If the coach doesn't like the call, he is welcomed to ask me about it, but he's not going to sway my judgement.

Re: The following people care
 

1- Officials who are hired based on whether coaches want them working their games or not.

2- Officials who have to book their own schedule with athletic directors and coaches.

3- Booking supervisors who ears are constantly getting bent by coaches who don't understand the rules.

4- Officials who work for booking supervisors who are constantly getting the ears bent about their officiating, be those remarks justified or not.

It's pretty easy and arrogant to say, "Who cares what the coach claims?" But the fact is that they are part of the game and they do affect the game and the officials. You can't make the call based on what the coach thinks but you can't just dismiss Rut's point. When we make a call, we need to make sure it's the proper call. When there's a question about a play, such as this one, sometimes it's better to not go by the letter of the rule, especially when the rule isn't clear.

Re: Well............
 

I fall on the side of believing that it is not a shot/try. All the rule says is that the backboard is considered to be part of the floor and that it is not a dribble if it is off the player's own backboard. It does not go so far as saying it is a try. I see is as an exception to the player control and dribble rules rather than as being a try. I do belive it is ambiguous however in its current form. Perhaps they do mean for it to be a try, but in that case you would need to consider the player in the act of shooting if fouled while throwing it off the board...not the intent in my opinion.

As far as the ball going in the basket from behind the line, I don't believe they are saying it is a try, I believe it is simply to be counted as 3...not unlike a team putting the ball in the other team's basket. It's not a try, but it still counts as if it were one if it goes in while live. Any fouls that occur during such action would not be shooting fouls.

Re: Re: The following people care
 

It is true that you have to consider the fact that coaches are part of the game and will have serious impact on what you work or don't work. However, I don't believe that one call is going to upset a coach to that point. It may be the straw that breaks the "coach's" back. I think that it will be the way that you handle the coach explaining why you made the call that will have more bearing that one whistle in the game.

Just my two cents...

Re: Re: Re: The following people care
 

And that's true of any call that you make that could be misunderstood. The official who ignores a coach is likely the one who will end up sticking him before the game is over.

I must say that when I posted this, I didn't think it was going to turn into a discussion on the amount of attention an official should pay to what coaches think, but rather a discussion of the play itself.

In the case I described, there is no doubt the ball hit the board on a pass, not a try. The play is identical to one tried previously on more than one occasion in the game. My advice is to make the correct call according to the rule, which is over and back, then tell any complaining coach that you will explain it at the next break. Period.

BTW - this was a set play in the NBA years ago when Jack Ramsey was coaching the Blazers. He ran it for Calvin Natt. After trying it for a few games and having it work only about 20% of the time, they abandoned it. Frankly, I think it could work at that level with the proper personnel, although if a forward could get inside position that easily, and a guard can make that pass that easily, maybe you're better off with an alley-oop.

Re: Re: The following people care
 

The "who cares" comment I made referred to that one play. When I posted that, I knew someone would jump on it and give me an earful about listening to coaches. <i>Well, you are preaching to the choir.</i> I know very well the importance of the coaches being involved in the game.