New here. Not an official but the son of a retired college and high school official.

Since the days of the Piston's Bad Boys the NBA has become a much more physical and much less finesse game. Over the years that style of game has worked its way down to the young kids. My question is this. The officiating has also seemed to become NBA style in the youth game. For instance the big strong kid is allowed to back down a smaller player like Shaq does, using his butt to move the smaller player out of the way and any attempt to hold his ground penalizes the smaller player. Is this what is being taught in officiating or has it just kind of evolved? Is the youth official encouraged to allow the physical play that is seen on TV? I must admit I miss the old NBA when scoring 100 wasn't an abberation and with the way the kids are playing today it doesn't look like it will change.

Not in my games.


Not in my games.


Neither.

Quote:

Is the youth official encouraged to allow the physical play that is seen on TV?

No.

I don't know where you are watching your games, but I'm sure I see more youth games than you and that's not what I see.

I'm not trying to be confrontational and I appreciate your input and participation here, but don't lump all officials into a category.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I agree I do 6-10 youth games a week. And I don't see any of this, and when I do I put a stop to it right away. I use these rec leagues to work on my officiating, that way when I graduate from Highschool I can ref Highschool and hopefully higher then that. I ref these rec games as close to Highschool as I can for their age group.

Mark

Didn't mean to lump all officals together but I can see the way I worded it makes it look that way. Sorry about that.

Over the last couple of years that seems to be the trend in city leagues and AAU tournaments in my area.

From your response it doesn't sound like it is being taught and encouraged and I'm glad to hear that.

Hi davis and welcome to the forum. As Mark (kind of) alluded to, you're going to see a broad range of officiating talent in those youth leagues and AAU games. You'll get some officials who have been trained well and have some good experience, and you'll get some officials who are just starting out or who learned about basketball by watching the NBA on TV.

Trained, experienced officials will most likely not allow a larger player to push another player under the basket. While you may see some of this (and I see it to a small extent at games that I occasionally observe), hopefully it isn't allowed in the majority of your games. It should not be.

Again, welcome to the forum. Hope you'll stick around with more good questions.

You will also see that there are spectators who ask questions and say things about bigger stronger kids backing down smaller weaker kids like shaq does and that it is an NBA thing or that it is illegal.

What Shaq does for the most part is not illegal. He is bigger. Should we blame him or even penalize him for that? NO. If the kid never comes to a "firm up" position and instead just keeps giving way after every bump, that is his fault and as long as the defender isn't taking a hard shot to the torso to knock him back consistently it is not a foul.

Eastdavis you will find that almost all and if not all of the posters on here are on your side about the NBA and not liking the work the officials do and even the NBA in general, but I am not on that side. I have met with, watched, and observed the work that they do on and off the court(watching game film, case plays, etc.). They are the best in the world at what they do. The NBA doesn't have a style of refereeing. There is the rules and the rules only that determines the style. Refs at the NBA level know(by the rules) what contact can be deemed legal and what can't. I feel the plays like the back down you are reffering to are the calls that are not "no-called" enough. The defender is giving way ground to the offensive player and the offensive player has every right to keep banging that defender until he decides he wants to hold a position, and until then or until the offensive player does something overt my whistle will remain silent.

I personally would love to see two kids in my youth league battle in the post like that.

According, as you note below, to NBA rules.

Not unless he displaces another player.


#1, a "firm up" position is irrelevant in HS and NCAA. Legal guarding position has no mention of firming up. It can not be applied to HS and NCAA situations, period.

#2, how exactly is a 200 pound player NOT supposed to "give way" after being pushed by a 350 pound player? That's probably an exaggeration, I don't know Shaq's weight, but the point is the same. The smaller player is not giving ground, he is being pushed off his legally obtained spot by a bigger player. That's not legal in a HS or NCAA game.


I don't think anyone on this forum has ever denigrated the job that the NBA's officials do. Nobody here has ever said that they are poor referees. They are great referees and they apply the rules as the NBA wants them applied. We all agree that they do an excellent job of doing that; where some of us differ is in whether we like NBA rules and the way the league wants them applied.

I too have been to a camp affilliated with -- wait for it -- the SEC and have met with many of the NBA refs. My first contact with an NBA ref was Zach Zarba and I have been his biggest fan since that first meeting. (In fact, he got me into that camp I mentioned.) Don't confuse some people's feelings about the game with their feelings about the officiating.

I think that is a very bad attitude to take into a HS or NCAA game. Seems like every single year, the NCAA and/or the FED put out POEs aimed at cutting down on that "banging". I don't think you should be "wishing" for more of it. JMO

I think that is a very bad attitude to take into a HS or NCAA game. Seems like every single year, the NCAA and/or the FED put out POEs aimed at cutting down on that "banging". I don't think you should be "wishing" for more of it. JMO [/B][/QUOTE]It's even a worse attitude to take into a middle school game. Or any youth game- which is what this thread is about.

Well I have read the whole NFHS rule book and casebook, some of the NCAA, and almost all of the NBA. I just don't see how post play should be called different at any level.

Getting off that to ask a question to chuck or jurassic in particular or anyone else who feels like answering. What are the guidelines on what you can do in the post? As I have said hundreds of times before I am an NBA guy. I love their rules and I do know the difference between almost all NBA, college, and HS rules, but when it comes to things like post play and hand checking/forearm checking out top I don't know what the provisions on that are. In the NBA official's manual. It has set guidelines. For an example, in the post with a player's back to the defender, the defender may put a forearm and a bent elbow hand. He may not have two forearms, nor two hands. that is just to name one of the guidelines. why don't NCAA and especially HS come out with such guidelines to make it easier for all officials to be more uniform, cause I know I am going to use the NBA guidelines in the post and in hand checking and I know that I would more than likely be wrong in making these calls according to supervisors, but that could vary from supervisor to supervisor, because there are no set guidelines. I will get off my soap box now and let you guys respond.

NCAAW (at least) had a "two of anything in the post is a foul" interpretation for a number of years. It's been dropped in favor of a "displacement is a foul" interpretation.

Straight from the NFHS 2003-04 Rule Book....

<b>POE 2C POST PLAY</b>
1) The offense can shape up to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke", pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.
2) The defense can assume a legal, vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts(initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.
3) When a player pushes a leg or knee into an opponent, it is a foul.
4) <b>When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in", it is a foul.</b>
5) When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

Most high school associations include this as part of their training. Most high school camps also teach the same principles.

No set guidelines in the rule book? That's because you don't read, know, or understand the rule book used at the level you are currently officiating. It might be a good idea one day for you to read NFHS rule 10-6-1, RefTN. And the rest of R10-6 also. You might not be so confused then. Those rules also do apply at the middle school level in TN too, don't they? I know that they certainly apply to your next level up- the high school level, when you happen to attain that. If you read the rulebook for the level that you <b>are</b> officiating, rather than the level that you <b>want</b> to officiate some day, then you'll do a much better job <b>now</b>- believe it or not. Good officials know the rules for the level that they're working.

As usual, feel free to ignore the advice. Hopefully, some of it might be helpful to other <b>new</b> officials.

I'm off my soapbox now too.

Bob, just fyi - the modification this year in NCAAW: 2 of anything on a post player, in the lane area, without the ball, and their back to the basket, is legal as long as there is no displacement. Once the player has the ball and faces the basket, they have the same status as a dribbler, which means 2 of anything would still be a foul. They added a section on "armbars", and they've also loosened the rules on hand-checking so it's no longer an automatic foul if a defender touches the dribbler.

Bottom line, they still have some specific instructions on how things should be called. On one hand, it feels a little restrictive because it does take a little of the judgement out of the call (any advantage gained?). However, there is some comfort in being able to make a call that's written out in black and white. Sometimes I wish the Fed would do the same. I've heard the howler monkey cry of "That's a hand check!" far too many times whenever a defender touches a dribbler without any advantage or displacement.

eastdavis,

Good question, and as you can see, we all have our opinions. I've seen a LOT of youth ball at all levels around here (Portland, Oregon) and I see some of the NBA-style of reffing in some youth leagues, especially at the AAU and "travel team" types of tourneys. Many of these refs do get their instruction from television, and do things the NBA way. Some of them do "crossover" reffing and will also work with the NFHS associations and do "school" ball. In the lower level rec leagues, generally this kind of physical play is not allowed, and when there get to be disagreements about it, the NBA style stuff gets squashed by the board of directors. Kids that want that (or parents that want that for their kids) go find another league.
Personally, I think that allowing kids under high school level to play this way does them a disservice. Once they get into high school, they won't be nearly as skilled at the kinds of finesse moves they'll need, and generally speaking, they mostly won't understand the problem and won't be able to adjust. Even at the top level of college, "backing down" an opponent is frowned on. So why let kids get away with it when they're 12? It just seems silly.

RefTN -- THe only thing I ask is that you keep putting this statement into your posts. Less experienced folks might come to this board and think you represent the NFHS position when in reality almost nothing you say should be applied to that level of ball. If you keep reminding your readers that you're NBA all the way (like how Chuck keeps a sig line that says his college interps apply to NCAA men's), then there won't be mix-ups and confusion about who's saying what.

Either BS or you are not be a very thorough reader. JR gave you the NFHS POE on this, the post below mentions the CURRENT NCAAW POE on it, and I've added the actual RULE BOOK text of the first part of that POE to end of this post. Happy reading!


2005-06
Points of Emphasis for Women
Displacement
The following guidelines have been established to help coaches, players and officials achieve a level of play that will allow freedom of movement for all players on the court and make the game a free-flowing, exciting game to watch. Officials must enforce these guidelines to ensure that freedom of movement is allowed in the game.
1. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO POST PLAY
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. A post player is defined as an offensive player with or without the ball who has her back to the basket and is either in the lane or just outside the lane. (The lane includes the foul line.) Any player on the court can be a post player as long as they have their back to the basket and are in the lane or just outside the lane.
b. Aplayer with the ball and her back to the basket is not a post player if she is not in the lane or just outside the lane. The defender may not make contact with the arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) in this situation.
c. A defensive player may place one arm-bar on the offensive post player. Extending the established arm-bar and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
d. A defensive player may place one hand, with a bend in the elbow on the offensive post player. Extending the arm and locking the elbow and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
e. Post players may be defended by placing one arm-bar or one hand with a bend in the elbow on the opponent to maintain position, any holding or displacement is illegal and a foul shall be called. Two hands, two arm-bars or an arm-bar and a hand used to hold or displace are illegal and a foul shall be called.
f. A defensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of the offensive post player shall be called for a personal foul.
<font color = red>g. An offensive post player may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.</font>
h. The offensive post player may not grab the leg or body of the defender, hook or in any way displace or hold.
i. An offensive post player becomes a ball handler (see ball handler or dribbler guidelines) when she turns and faces the basket with the ball.
j. The offensive post player with or without the ball cannot initiate contact and displace the defender who has established a legal guarding position. (see principle of verticality)
k. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching each other but only to maintain position. Any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

Well, the NFHS and NCAA Womens' guidelines have been set out for you above , RefTN- right from their respective rule books To complete the trifecta, here's the NCAA Mens guidelines from Appendix III of the current NCAA rule book:

<b>SECTION 13- MENS POST PLAY:</b>
Some guidelines to officials in making constant, consistent calls in low-post play:
(a) Observe the entire play, especially when responsible for off-ball coverage.
(b) Anticipate the play but not the call when post players are in a fronting position.
(c) A defensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of an offensive player shall be a personal foul on the defender.
(d) An offensive player dislodging a defensive player from an established position by pushing <b>or backing in</b> shall be a personal foul on the offensive player.
(e) A player using the "swim move" arm movement to lower the arm of the an opponent shall be charged with a personal foul.
(f) Post players using hands, arms, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintainiong a legal position shall be charged with a personal foul.

There's the guidelines from the NFHS and NCAA all set out for you, RefTN, contrary to your claim above that there aren't any guidelines. Still gonna continue using the NBA guidelines?

Btw, the NCAA Womens guidelines that Nevada posted above are set out in Appendix III of the NCAA rule book too.


[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 08:13 AM]

Considering that he's in the wait for it ... SEC training program, and thinks that he is already headed to the NBA, he probably will. :rolleyes:

Actually, it was my understanding that RefTN isn't in the SEC program. He just attended one of their camps.

Thanks everybody for the welcome and the feedback. Reading on this forum is going to be a nice interesting education for me.

When I say guidelines, I meant the use of hands. So let me ask again. What are the guidelines, if any, on what you can do with your hands in the post and anywhere else on the court?

Secondly where do you go to put those quotes on the bottom of your posts

Are you serious? Why did we just waste our time posting them and also telling you where to find them?

They're in the damn rulebooks. Look 'em up.

Geeze, what a total waste of time......

In TN's defense, I think he is probably asking if the FED or NCAA issues bulletins or supplements to the rules that give precise examples of actions that MUST be called a foul. The NBA supplements its rulebook with examples of "guideline fouls". These are directives that take the judgment out of certain situations for officials.

This is what Bob described in the women's game. "Two of anything" is a foul. That way when you go to Trail and the coach yells, "She didn't even push her!", you can honestly say, "Two hands is a guideline foul, Coach. It's automatic."

My guess is that TN was asking if the FED or NCAA puts out such a supplement with a list of plays like this. The FED does not; NCAAM does not, to the best of my knowledge; NCAAW used to, but I don't know the current situation.

I didn't realize it, but Nevada's post is the current guidelines. Sorry.

My guess is RefTN doesn't know the NFHS or NCAA rulesets.

You are probably right Jurassic I have no idea what they are. I would appreciate it if you posted them for me and while you are at it I need you to post all 13 rules from NFHS book for me. I do need to get better at them and study them harder. I hope to be really good one day. I think if I just get about another 7 or 8 years on top of my 4 years of experience I already have(if you can call it that since I have reffed over 700 games and not one of them have been a REGULAR SEASON HIGH SCHOOL game, which matters a whole lot) I will actually make it to, and be a dang good HS official. And then I can be perfectly content with myself and die of old age reffing in the same association for 45 years and make it into my state's hall of fame(which I so eagerly want to do. Oh boy what an honor) never having reffed or wanting to ref above high school.

If you go to the NCAA web page and then to winter sports then basketball, then officiating and then to bullitens, there are video clips for both mens and womens officials for in=season review.
Working Hard

Four years of experience? Are you counting all of those intramural high school games you did too? You've done 700 mostly rec league games and a few middle school games, RefTN- according to you. You've never officiated a high school jv game in your life, let alone a high school varsity game. It's readily apparent from your posts here that you don't know or understand most of the basic NFHS and NCAA rules either. You've been to one camp in your life. You are <b>not</b> part of the SEC developmental program.

It's a waste of time posting rules for you. You don't understand them anyway. On the bright side though, you do have those NBA rules nailed, don't you?

You're a 19 year old that thinks he already knows everything damn thing there is to know about officiating. Believe it or not, you don't. None of us do.

Well, good luck to you anyway. You're gonna need it.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 06:46 PM]

If you don't want to ref hs, don't respect hs refs, can only respond sarcastically when people try to find out your true situation, why do you even bother posting here? I can't for the life of me figure out why you waste your time with us hopeless losers.

Let us Pray>>>> Ok now lets all take a deeeeeeep breath and hope this new rising star reconsiders. Lets try to give him the tools to move on/up. Lets hope he grasps the ring and keeps WORKING HARD and learning.

That statement right there tells you exactly what RefTN thinks of officials that <b>only</b> do high school games.

Riff-raff.....not worthy of his respect...

Actually I'm 20 now but who's counting. You are right I am not in the SEC developmental program anymore, because right now there pretty much isn't one. But you know what I am damn good at officiating and am not afraid to admit it or even tell you that. I have some of the greatest people in the world teaching me and I am just going to get better and better every day.

You know there is a lot put on this whole reffing a REGULAR SEASON GAME stuff. It is just a bunch of BS. I have reffed 20 times better players than that which are in high school and have had to deal with coaches ten times worse than the ones in high school. I will be perfectly content if I never have to ref a high school game in my life. I wish you would tell me though what it is like to ref HS basketball. No i mean a REGULAR SEASON high school basketball game. I've had the high school part just not the regular season part on the front of it.

I can say this jurassic. I think if we lived around each other we would truly like each other. I love to instigate and argue as do you. We are both on opposite ends of the spectrum(you are done with ball and I am just getting started) but I think even though we have all kinds of arguments at the end of the day you think I am a know it all young, wannabe NBA ref and you are an old old vet who probably does know it all. I am a socrates fan. If you have ever read any of his stuff. He instigates and argues a point just so there can be an argument and not only so he can learn from, but so that others can benefit from it as well. That is all that is going on here. Not so much on this post as others we have had. This one is just name calling. I am going to put this one aside and find one I can really argue with you about so that it makes us both smarter and wiser about the game.

Jurassic I would also love to know where you live just so I can come to a camp nearby and you could come down to talk to me and watch me work cause no one can every explain a situation or show how they would ref a certain play, you need to be able to see it. I would enjoy it. Tell me if there are any camps in your area and I will sign up.

WOW!! I just re-read RefTN's 1st and 2nd post on this thread. He wants the kids to play at the NBA level right out of grammar school!! Lets keep working on him, maybe we can bring him back down to earth and real basketball.
Workig Hard

You really have very little respect for high school officials, do you?

Are the high school officals in your local association in TN overall really not that dedicated or competent?

No they are not. Reffing HS is just not my cup of tea. I like my assignor and almost all the guys, I just don't mind doing HS basketball.

Your kind of "arguing" is just irrelevant and meaningless drivel. What is said on this board is supposed to be about high school ball, I mean REGULAR SEASON HIGH SCHOOL BALL. What you post has little or nothing to teach a high school official, because it's all about what's great about the NBA, and most of it is wrong for high school ball. How is that helping "make people smarter and wiser about the game"?