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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 11:20pm
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A1 is dribbling out of control, then passes the ball to really an empty area, with the ball still rolling A1 takes 2 more steps and plows over B1. i call a pushing foul on A1, not a player control foul. should there be a 1 and 1 at the other end or not? there were 7 team fouls at the time.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 11:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by yankeesfan
A1 is dribbling out of control, then passes the ball to really an empty area, with the ball still rolling A1 takes 2 more steps and plows over B1. i call a pushing foul on A1, not a player control foul. should there be a 1 and 1 at the other end or not? there were 7 team fouls at the time.
Has team control been lost? See 4-control (sorry -- no books for a specific reference), especially the caluse "team control continues until ..."
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 12:20am
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Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 12:58am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by yankeesfan
A1 is dribbling out of control, then passes the ball to really an empty area, with the ball still rolling A1 takes 2 more steps and plows over B1. i call a pushing foul on A1, not a player control foul. should there be a 1 and 1 at the other end or not? there were 7 team fouls at the time.
Has team control been lost? See 4-control (sorry -- no books for a specific reference), especially the caluse "team control continues until ..."
Rule 4-12-4. A loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control.

Snake~eyes was right.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 08:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 09:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Well, if you're going to get nit-picky, "offensive foul" is redundant, too. Aren't all fouls offensive to right-thinking people everywhere?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 09:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Well, if you're going to get nit-picky, "offensive foul" is redundant, too. Aren't all fouls offensive to right-thinking people everywhere?

There are only offensive fouls in NBA/WNBA rules. Team control fouls are in NFHS, NCAA and FIBA.

MTD, Sr.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Not really, a team can easily be on offense without team control. During a throw-in, when a shot goes up.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Not really, a team can easily be on offense without team control. During a throw-in, when a shot goes up.


I agree that Team A, while in possession of the ball for a throw-in, is the offensive team: 1) Under NFHS rules a contact foul by a Team player is during the throw-in is a personal foul that is either a common foul, an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul; and 2) Under NCAA the common foul is a team control foul. But in either case it is not an offensive foul because no such animal exists in NFHS and NCAA rules. One will not find a definition for an offensive foul in either rule book, nor will one find a definition for an offensive foul in the FIBA rules for the same reason. One will only find a definition for an offensive foul in the NBA and WNBA rules.

As far as NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA rules are concerened, offenesive fouls are like centrifugal forces are to circular motion in physics, and statics and dynamics. There is no such animal.

MTD, Sr.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 11:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Well, if you're going to get nit-picky, "offensive foul" is redundant, too. Aren't all fouls offensive to right-thinking people everywhere?
There are some 8th grade girl's team coaches who apparently believe if you're not fouling, you're not being aggressive enough. Oh way, you said right-THINKING. My bad
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 02:57am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Well, if you're going to get nit-picky, "offensive foul" is redundant, too. Aren't all fouls offensive to right-thinking people everywhere?

There are only offensive fouls in NBA/WNBA rules. Team control fouls are in NFHS, NCAA and FIBA.

MTD, Sr.
KAFFEE
Corporal, would you turn to the page in
this book that says where the enlisted
men's mess hall is?

HOWARD
Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.

KAFFEE
I don't understand, how did you know where
the enlisted men's mess hall was if it's
not in this book?

HOWARD
I guess I just followed the crowd at chow
time, sir.

KAFFEE
No more questions.

KAFFEE chucks the book back on ROSS's desk.

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 03:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbduke
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Offensive team control foul = no foul shots.


Offensive team control is redundant.

MTD, Sr.
Well, if you're going to get nit-picky, "offensive foul" is redundant, too. Aren't all fouls offensive to right-thinking people everywhere?

There are only offensive fouls in NBA/WNBA rules. Team control fouls are in NFHS, NCAA and FIBA.

MTD, Sr.
KAFFEE
Corporal, would you turn to the page in
this book that says where the enlisted
men's mess hall is?

HOWARD
Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.

KAFFEE
I don't understand, how did you know where
the enlisted men's mess hall was if it's
not in this book?

HOWARD
I guess I just followed the crowd at chow
time, sir.

KAFFEE
No more questions.

KAFFEE chucks the book back on ROSS's desk.



Trying to compare the above exchange from A Few Good Men to my post is like trying to compare apples to oranges. It cannot be done.

MTD, Sr.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 03:13pm
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First of all, the comparison CAN be made. We may differ on its appropriateness, but that has no bearing on its feasability.

Secondly, there is a parallel. I perceived Ross in one case and you in the other to be engaging in a pedantic line of argumentative commentary.

There. I did it again.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 09:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbduke
First of all, the comparison CAN be made. We may differ on its appropriateness, but that has no bearing on its feasability.

Secondly, there is a parallel. I perceived Ross in one case and you in the other to be engaging in a pedantic line of argumentative commentary.

There. I did it again.

JB:

You are missing the point. Officials are the rules experts and as such should be using correct language, not slang used by non-officials. When I hear officials use incorrect language to explain rules I wonder if they really know the rules and definitions which are the cornerstone of officiating.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 12:31am
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No, I'm not missing the point. I draw a distinction between the appropriateness of "over the back," and "offensive foul." The former is not a useful descriptor because of the difference between its denotation and connotation, and the respective relationships to the rulebook. In the case of the latter expression, however, no substantive conflict exists.

Some officials use the phrase "offensive foul," and when we do, we are intending to describe a play in which the offense committed a foul. That the phrase "offensive foul" does not appear in a Fed or NCAA rulebook does not mitigate against its usefulness as a descriptive term, and I fail to see why you feel that attempting to correct someone on this point is an efficient use of time.

That said, I am indeed convinced that you DO consider it an efficient use of your time, and I will now cease and desist all attempts to convince you otherwise.
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